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Discipline priest raiding compendium

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Concerning the discussion of crit versus haste, I think it should be looked from a different viewpoint then this thread suggests. Main concern as I see it so far is not the fact that discipline healing can provide very high HPS only for very limited time and needs a boost by either haste or crit, but the fact that huge number of healing ends up as overheal.

It is basically the same situation as paladins are facing and it is result of direct character of discipline heals, which are overwriten often with quicker aoe heals or with quicker direct heals.

Best tactics to avoid this as I see it, can not be based on haste, as there is not enough haste gear to stack it so high to be quicker then anybody in the raid. Crit can help a bit due the fact it creates shields and shields prevent damage without overhealing, but the inherent problem here is the fact that divine aegis does not last long enough.

So in my opinion, the ultimate answer to the question Crit versus haste is stacking Spell Power and letting Crit and haste to personal preferences.

On a more general theme of discipline healing:

Best tactics for discipline healing in "normal" situation is using shields as often as CD allows it on targets that are almost sure to be damaged . That should provide enough mana for any other action and prevent substantial damage. And that extra action should be usage of cheap, low healing spells on maximum number of targets. I think improved Renew is one of them as it is possible to keep at least three ticking and Flash Heal cast on targets below 50% health is the second one. Third one is PoM. It ends up in 30-40% overhealing anyway, but it is better then 50% that I see quite often during runs to all current instances.

(There are of course different fights, like Sarthorion with 3 drakes, where bursting PW:S, Penance and GH during Flame Breath is priority No. 1 and the rest is just filler, but that is exception)

Discipline build is utility and special purpose build as I see it, it brings to raids spirit buff, unique shields and capability of burst healing. Those three capabilities are good enough reasons for having discipline priest in raid. His/her total effective healing, combined with damage prevented by shields, provides roughly same amount of damage mitigation as any other healer hence having discipline priest does not mean nerfing of raids healing.

Having more then one discipline priest in raid is I would say contraproductive. There is no synergy of discipline buffs, two priests casting shields will probably end up in casting them on same targets and there is hardly any need for double burst healing.

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Hello all, I found this thread and lots of exciting information in it. I wanted to present the data that a friend and myself have come up with through our trials.

Haste v. Crit:

Crit is important but haste is what we look for first. Stacking haste until Flash Heal is at a one second cooldown. Anything more then that is a waste since you can't get the GCD below 1 second. After that we pickup crit.

Personally I heal everything with flash heal. I remember the days of being holy and flash heal being evil, but now with rapture, flash heal glyph, and 28k+ mana raid buffed it is almost a free heal. I usually end Patchwerk at 80m spamming flash heal, penance, and PWS. Yes, that is an overkill on mana regen but I'm well geared. The plus side to ridiculous mana regen means that I can pickup the slack from other healers and that I last a lot longer. This matters on fights like Sarth 3D and Malygos.

The stat weights I use are from dwarfpriest.com. She has a lengthy post HERE about them. This leads to this gear list Discpline Gear List.

IED v. Other Metas:

This is a tough choice and tends to fall a lot to personal choice. This Patchwerk kill is my guilds most recent. Kraylessa and Xeonio are both disc priests. You will find that IED came out to about 28mp5 for Xeonio and 72mp5 for Kraylessa. I would still rather have that then 2% increased intellect or 3% increased crit on my heals.

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Hmm... I'm not liking some of this discussion that overhealing = bad thing and hence crit gets devalued. Consider that if you are MT healing, overhealing and shields are NOT bad things in the least. Your Divine Aegis shields have a VERY high likelihood of being eaten. And if you think that crit is "bad", then you wouldn't ever get Renewed Hope. (Not saying Renewed Hope is that great, and is usually the first talent to go)

On our last Sarth+3, I had 66% overheal and was lowest on the healing meters. Yet, I had other healers thanking me for showing up as they really didn't have to worry about the MT at all (except when it was their turn for their CD of course). I didn't have to potion, I just had to use 1 shadowfiend, and I was never in any danger of running out of mana. That sounds like the winning situation in my book.

So if you consider that most of the time you'll probably be assigned with healing the tank(s), I don't see as crit being all THAT bad. (Obviously you want a balance)

And hey - sometimes you just have to overheal to keep your Grace up. But mana is a joke now.

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I have to agree with the poster above me and at the same time with those who devalue crit because of the overhealing aspect.

Overheal is defined as "Every point healed when the target is at full health". This definition involves 2 criteria: "HP healed" and "HP pool of target". So if you are right now seeing a great portion of overheal, keep in mind that the main upgrade in terms of healergear has already been taken: in a best- case- scenario, we are talking about Level 70 Sunwell- gear getting replaced by Level 80 Naxxramas- gear. The tiers of equipment we'll see in the future will not boost our output or manaregen as much as it has happened with the upgrades from X to Level 80- epics. On the other hand, HP- pools tend to grow much faster due to the low itembudget- cost of STA and the fact that the concept of avoidance. tanks has been nerfed quite hard.

To cut it short: a Greater Heal- crit may now seem utterly useless because it will overheal in most cases but as far as we can tell, there will be a time when tanks will pass 50k quite effortless while our Greater Heal will crit for about 2k more than it does right now. Crit will then definetly be better than it may seem right now.

Haste at the same time is much more situational as I already stated some posts ago- given a pragmatical point of view.

Haste basically allows us to cast more heals in a set timeframe. So let's look at the spells we are casting regularly: PW:S and Penance both got a CD that prevents us from spamming and lowers the value of haste for them. So we end up thinking about Flash Heal and this has to be casted while standing still. Encounters in WotLK seem to demand for coordination and therefore running around a lot.

And this is when I feel mathematics really can help us- and especially me: If we just got a set timeframe to heal people up and not regarding PW:S or Penance because we should always have them on CD, which stat will help us more: crit or haste? I don't know. And as long as we are not sure about this, we just can't give out real advice in terms of gearing questions.

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Generally speaking extreme overhealing is bad, though it doesn't matter as much if you can sustain a high level of overhealing without having mana issues. If Blizz makes mana more of a concern this will matter a great deal more. Though I don't devalue Crit at all based on overheal impact.

What I do have concern in my modelling and math is creating an over-value of crit. Which is highly possible. You say that your DA has a "VERY high likelihood of being eaten" but how likely is it really? I would say that the likelihood of a DA getting used on a tank before expiring is pretty much guaranteed. The real concern is overwriting full shields or partially consumed shields.

Looking at Penance with a Flash before and a Flash after... Penance as a 1.5 second window damage will be taken once and in a 3.9 second window of the total cast sequence twice, there are scenarios where damage will be taken twice / thrice respectively however I didn't model those as extra damage taken between crits does not change the result. As was noted previously damage patterns vary per encounter and there is no ultimate general model. This is for showing that there is reason to devalue crit to some degree.

@30% crit..

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

18.9% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

2.7% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 16.8%

1 crit - 36%

2 crit - 30.9%

3 crit - 13.2%

4 crit - 2.8%

5 crit - 0.25%

47.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 16.25% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@35%

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

23.89% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

4.29% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 11.6%

1 crit - 31.2%

2 crit - 33.6%

3 crit - 18.1%

4 crit - 4.9%

5 crit - 0.5%

57.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 23.5% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@40%

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

28.8% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

6.4% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 7.8%

1 crit - 25.9%

2 crit - 34.6%

3 crit - 23%

4 crit - 7.7%

5 crit - 1%

66.3% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 31.7% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

From this 1% crit makes overwriting DA 2% more likely in general and 1.45% of the time almost a guarantee that it happens at least once. It does reduce the chance of not getting a DA obviously which is good... Though this is why if you consider crit solely on the benefit it isn't being considered properly.

Haste

The only negative impact is when you reach 1 second GCD's - statically not possible in current gear and when fast cast spells Flash Heal reach sub 1 second casts (possible with BT). Haste currently has no point without considering hero/PI/BT/trinkets where the threshold is sustainably reached. I float the line a lot due to BT/Trinket but at those times I don't use Flash heal so I am still gaining benefit from the haste.

The above model for crit is based on 25% haste... It should be noted that adding haste compounds the DA overwrite situation. At 50% static haste what I modeled at 3.9 seconds only takes 3.33 seconds and reduces the number of DA's that could be consumed in the window of applications.

Just some further thoughts on the topic.

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Xeonio mentioned my feelings on the subject in an earlier post, but I want to officially throw my support behind Haste as well. I'm at the point now where I probably am pushing the line of "too much Haste" (sitting at just under 600 unbuffed), so I plan to begin possibly gemming for a bit more Crit and focusing on Crit for some of my remaining slots (OH for example). Personally, getting my Flash Heals down as close to the GCD as I can has been my proiority. I recently dropped my T7.5 in favor of my current gear. This pushed my Haste up quite a bit and I'm happy with it where it is now.

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Didnt know where to write - here or in Healin Compendium - but as i am DISC priest - ill ask here.

Renew vs FH - it was long discussed over this board. i was reading how FH is superior as compared to Renew - so wanted to test it myself.

My char is not best equipped - we are just clearing 10Naxx, not 25instas yet.

FH Glyphed, Renew glyphed, changed GH to Renew in talants.

number based on last patchwerk stat

FH cost is 690 mana and crit gives 6091 HP max per crit

Renew costs 590 mana and gives 1594 HP per tic. one cast = 4 tics = 6376 HP

Please tell me - what is wrong with my calculation - or WHY renew is worse than FH?

Yes, i know that renew cannot crit - but it is not supposed to replace FH - but add smoothness to healin.

It is may be better use GH in fights as Patchwerk - but in that case haste 10%+ unbuffed is required - otherwise its too much "jumping" in tank's HP.

If it is wrong topic to post to - i am asking admin to move it to right one.

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The discussion of renew vs flash heal has always been centered around a holy build. With holy you get serendipity, and a chance to procc both clearcasting and surge of light. For more in-depth analysis and discussion on this particular issue, you should check out the holy healing compendium, as it's been going quite vividly on this very topic lately.

If you want to look at it from a disc priest perspective, you have to take into account rapture gains and a chance to procure a Divine Aegis with flash heal. Personally I always roll some renews, I find it to be decent hps on top of my flash heal/penance/shield "rotation".

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There is 2 missing points in your post.

First is efficiency. Flash heals triggers rapture, renew not. So the real mana cost of flash heal is heavily decreased.

2nd is the benefit of flash heal :

it can crit, and disc crits heal for about twice the amount (including DA). So that's easily 20% more.

It also gives grace and (when crits) inspiration, which are really good buffs for tanks.

This said, on Patchwerk, I do use renew, to pre-heal when I have penance available and that the tank is full. I don't need to precast (I'll use penance as soon as I see damage), and shields and renew (and POM) helps to mitigate the next strike.

Renew is not absolutely bad. It's not interesting to heal a damaged player for disc priest when standing.

It's still the only cd-free heal we have for preemptive healing and instant heal for movement (or vortex).

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Generally speaking extreme overhealing is bad, though it doesn't matter as much if you can sustain a high level of overhealing without having mana issues. If Blizz makes mana more of a concern this will matter a great deal more. Though I don't devalue Crit at all based on overheal impact.

What I do have concern in my modelling and math is creating an over-value of crit. Which is highly possible. You say that your DA has a "VERY high likelihood of being eaten" but how likely is it really? I would say that the likelihood of a DA getting used on a tank before expiring is pretty much guaranteed. The real concern is overwriting full shields or partially consumed shields.

Looking at Penance with a Flash before and a Flash after... Penance as a 1.5 second window damage will be taken once and in a 3.9 second window of the total cast sequence twice, there are scenarios where damage will be taken twice / thrice respectively however I didn't model those as extra damage taken between crits does not change the result. As was noted previously damage patterns vary per encounter and there is no ultimate general model. This is for showing that there is reason to devalue crit to some degree.

@30% crit..

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

18.9% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

2.7% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 16.8%

1 crit - 36%

2 crit - 30.9%

3 crit - 13.2%

4 crit - 2.8%

5 crit - 0.25%

47.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 16.25% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@35%

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

23.89% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

4.29% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 11.6%

1 crit - 31.2%

2 crit - 33.6%

3 crit - 18.1%

4 crit - 4.9%

5 crit - 0.5%

57.2% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 23.5% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

@40%

During the ~1.5 seconds of Penance

28.8% of the time 2 crits - 1 likely overwrite

6.4% of the time 3 crits - 1 guaranteed overwrite and a second likely overwrite

During the ~3.9 seconds of Penance + Pre & Post Flash

0 crit - 7.8%

1 crit - 25.9%

2 crit - 34.6%

3 crit - 23%

4 crit - 7.7%

5 crit - 1%

66.3% of the time you are at risk of DA overwriting, 31.7% of the time DA is at extreme risk - possibly overwriting more than once.

From this 1% crit makes overwriting DA 2% more likely in general and 1.45% of the time almost a guarantee that it happens at least once. It does reduce the chance of not getting a DA obviously which is good... Though this is why if you consider crit solely on the benefit it isn't being considered properly.

Haste

The only negative impact is when you reach 1 second GCD's - statically not possible in current gear and when fast cast spells Flash Heal reach sub 1 second casts (possible with BT). Haste currently has no point without considering hero/PI/BT/trinkets where the threshold is sustainably reached. I float the line a lot due to BT/Trinket but at those times I don't use Flash heal so I am still gaining benefit from the haste.

The above model for crit is based on 25% haste... It should be noted that adding haste compounds the DA overwrite situation. At 50% static haste what I modeled at 3.9 seconds only takes 3.33 seconds and reduces the number of DA's that could be consumed in the window of applications.

Just some further thoughts on the topic.

Thanks Doctor!

I think it is important to reiterate on the fact that haste will help compound DA overwriting. I always stumbled across several profiles which either completely stack haste or completely stack crit. It may be necessary to model base values in regards to throughput while keeping spell power maximized.

In my opinion : all stats are unbuffed

Base values

Spellpower: 2000(without inner fire)

crit: 20%

haste: 12%

I think once we have values close to this we can justify stacking more crit or more haste depending on your playstyle or the encounter.

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Great to have a discipline-thread established, even if there are many similarities, it's good not always reading about coh-nerf ;)

To add more mathematical formulas to this guide, i tried to determinate the exact coefficient of rapture returns with some testing.

Assuming the formula: Rapture_return = c * Max_Mana * Effective_Healing_done

Testing in Patch 3.0.9

At 20233 Mana:

[TABLE]Healing done|Rapture_return

3791|168

3712|165

3675|162

3903|173

5610|249

3934|174

7825|347

7829|346

7869|349

7839|349[/TABLE]

And a 12'204 Crit Gheal returned 506 Mana, which ist 20233*0.025 rounded up. So the 2.5% Cap holds.

c=2.1915 * 10^(-6)

At 14880 Mana (half-naked)

[TABLE]Healing done|Rapture_return

2908|90

2734|88

2758|85

2886|89

4327|133

2836|87

5975|184

5915|182

8653|266[/TABLE]

c=2.071 * 10^(-6)

So there is quite a difference for the 2 Mana_Levels. Maybe i'll investigate it further, using a full naked set if I have the time and the space in my inventory. Or maybe the assumption of the formula is incorrect ;)

Interesting is the cap on rapture. rapture_return= c * max_mana * effective_healing_done <= 0.025 * max_mana

Solving for the healing_point where the maximum rapture_return is reached, we get heal= 0.025 / c . Using the above coefficient, we see that at 11'500-12'000 healing done the maximum rapture_return of 2.5% of max_mana is reached. So Crit Gheals may become more and more Mana-Inefficient as we gear up.

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So Crit Gheals may become more and more Mana-Inefficient as we gear up.

This would mean that the cost of a GHeal increases as we gear up wouldn't it? But to the contrary, GHeal cost is constant, thus, as long as our Intellect, Spell Power and Crit Increases, GHeal becomes more and more efficient.

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Didnt know where to write - here or in Healin Compendium - but as i am DISC priest - ill ask here.

Renew vs FH - it was long discussed over this board. i was reading how FH is superior as compared to Renew - so wanted to test it myself.

My char is not best equipped - we are just clearing 10Naxx, not 25instas yet.

FH Glyphed, Renew glyphed, changed GH to Renew in talants.

number based on last patchwerk stat

FH cost is 690 mana and crit gives 6091 HP max per crit

Renew costs 590 mana and gives 1594 HP per tic. one cast = 4 tics = 6376 HP

Please tell me - what is wrong with my calculation - or WHY renew is worse than FH?

Yes, i know that renew cannot crit - but it is not supposed to replace FH - but add smoothness to healin.

It is may be better use GH in fights as Patchwerk - but in that case haste 10%+ unbuffed is required - otherwise its too much "jumping" in tank's HP.

If it is wrong topic to post to - i am asking admin to move it to right one.

Nothing wrong with the caculations as far as I can tell. But even glyphed, you need to ask yourself why are you wasting a GCD on renew in a fight like patchwerk? When you are learning that encounter on 25s, it can hardly smooth out 10k+ hits per second on your hatefull tanks (probably more as they wont be geared). Ask yourself what else can you be casting durign that GCD that will heal more than 1.5k and I think you can come up with a better answer than renew. Until the tanks and healers are well geared, you should only be casting your best then your biggest heals.

Others have covered the reason why, but the chance to gain mana via rapture should by itself make you move renew off your most used key binds.

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Just to sum up the Renew vs. Flash Heal argument:

- Renew cannot Crit (no DA, no increased throughput)

- Renew does not stack Grace

- Renew does not return mana via Rapture

- Renew rarely ticks for it's full amount (does not tick when target is at full health, thus is essentially overheal)

With Haste bringing your FH cast times down to barely over one second, Glyph reducing mana cost, crits proccing DA and therefore increasing the amount "healed", Grace stacking, and mana returned via Rapture from the spell itself AND the DA's it procs, it is just a superior spell in every way. The only time I ever use Renew is when I need instant cast spells (Maly's vortex, Heigan dance...). Pretty much any other time, FH is a far better use of my GCD.

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First of all let me mention how glad i am to finally have a place to discuss Disc priest raiding.

I was hoping to extend the discussion on general theory and practice of disc healing. Specifically, the useage of Flash Heal vs Greater Heal.

I find myself when tank healing using Greater Heal between Pennance cd's based on the old holy spec habit of 1 GH > 2 FH. I'm wondering if most of you are following the same practice of using GH over FH when there is more than a 5-6k heal needed or if you just chain spam FH?

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Sarth3D I spam Greater Heals, on Patchwerk I've found that rotating PW: Shield on all 3 tanks + flash healing between Penance to be more effective. Sapphiron I mix it up, as I know other healers can see what heals are incoming on people all the time, and use a mix of PWS, Penance, Flash Heal and Renew, all depending on situation. On Kel'Thuzad I actually end up Greater Healing a lot after the AoE Frostbolts.

Call me oldschool, or maybe I just have nerves of steel, but I have quite a lot of trust in the slow hard hitting Greater Heal still, and I'm waiting for a decent 3rd Glyph, may it be Glyph of Greater Heal.

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I think a bit much of the discussion around crit vs. haste has boiled down to 'it's personal preference' without understanding the numbers that should drive that preference.

I'll state up front that my preference is for balanced gearing and believe that stacking either crit or haste too heavily decreases effectiveness. (As a general comment, I believe haste tends to be undervalued.) However, I've found some of the following numbers helpful in making decisions when picking gear upgrades:

(This is a work in progress; there's some stuff I'd like to include but don't have written out at the moment. Please feel free to correct my math if I've made any errors.)

Haste

Haste soft caps

Below numbers indicate haste rating required to cap the GCD to 1 second. Note that PI/Heroism + BT always cap haste. Haste Modifiers stack multiplicatively. Enlightenment is included.

[TABLE]Haste Modifiers|Talents + Buffs Only|w/ PI (20%)|w/ BT (25%)|w/ Heroism (30%)

<none>|1405.29|624.57|468.43|324.30

3% [Moonkin/Ret Paladin]|1268.85|510.88|359.28|219.35

5% [Wrath of Air]|1182.22|438.69|289.98|152.71|

3% + 5%|1052.29|330.40|186.03|52.76[/TABLE]

I would consider the BT cap associated with your current level of raid buffs to be a 'minimum' level of haste, although that's certainly open to interpretation.

Efficiency

Haste for obvious reasons has a negative effect on rate of mana usage, but what is not widely recognized is that if you are able to add x amount of haste rating and consequently do less overhealing, the additional mana returned from Rapture can easily compensate for the loss in efficiency due to casting more.

At approximately mid-Naxx25 gear levels (2200 spell power, 30% crit, 200 haste) and average amounts of overheal (50% overheal on non-crits, 65% on crits, 25% of DAs lost due to overwriting or non-absorption), for FH adding 10 points of haste requires you do to .5% less overhealing.

This number is variable based on the amount of overhealing you do as well as your current gear level, etc., but the point is that haste does not have as great a negative impact on efficiency as is believed.

Furthermore, and perhaps more significantly, the amount of overheal needed to zero out the mana loss from haste decreases as crit, spell power, and particularly max mana increase (in other words, as gear improves).

Data is below:

Overheal (Throughout): 50.0%, Crit Overheal 65.0%, Aegis Overheal: 25.0%


Spell Power: 2200.0, Crit: 30.0%, Max Mana: 25000.0

At 200.0 haste:

  Flash MPS Cost: 464.184964928

  Flash Rapture MPS: 97.8292567561

  Difference (net loss): 366.355708172

At 210.0 haste:

  Flash MPS Cost: 465.519213175

  Flash Rapture MPS: 98.1104561144

  Difference (net loss): 367.40875706

MPS Lost: 1.05304888811

Added Effective Healing to net zero: 0.568164864133%


Spell Power: 2500.0, Crit: 35.0%, Max Mana: 30000.0

Overheal: 50.0%, Crit Overheal 65.0%, Aegis Overheal: 25.0%

At 200.0 haste:

  Flash MPS Cost: 464.184964928

  Flash Rapture MPS: 128.560334937

  Difference (net loss): 335.624629991

At 210.0 haste:

  Flash MPS Cost: 465.519213175

  Flash Rapture MPS: 128.929867374

  Difference (net loss): 336.5893458

MPS Lost: 0.964715809115

Added Effective Healing to net zero: 0.399198539158%
The relevant portions of the Python script (I hate Excel) used to generate this data are below (so those more knowledgeable than I can check my math). I left out basic calculations like those for cast time and base flash heal amount. Grace is NOT assumed to be up. NOTE: For clarity, '_add' refers to calculations when adding x amount of haste (10, in my sample runs above), which as they're identical for everything except the last four lines I've omitted to try to save space. I can provide the full script upon request.
flash_total_healing = (noncrit_percent * flash_base_heal * noncrit_effective) + (crit_percent * flash_base_heal * 1.5 * crit_effective) + (crit_percent * flash_base_heal * 0.45 * da_effective)

flash_rapture_return = max_mana * (flash_total_healing / 11460.0) * 0.025


flash_cast_time = 1.5/(1.05 * (1.0 + (haste_rating / 3279.0)))

flash_mps_cost = flash_cost / flash_cast_time


flash_rapture_mps = flash_rapture_return / flash_cast_time


net_loss = flash_mps_cost - flash_rapture_mps


needed_flash_rapture_return = flash_cost - (flash_add_cast_time * net_loss)

needed_flash_total_healing = (needed_flash_rapture_return / (max_mana * 0.025)) * 11460.0

added_effective_percent = (((needed_flash_total_healing / flash_base_heal) - (crit_percent * 0.45 * da_effective)) - (noncrit_percent * noncrit_effective) - (crit_percent * 1.5 * crit_effective))/(noncrit_percent + (crit_percent * 1.5))

Non-tangible Benefits

It also bears noting that haste increases ability (this is more noticeable in large quantities than small) to concentrate on more than one target at once as well as further supports Discipline's already strong ability to reactively, rather than exclusively proactively, heal.

Crit

Inspiration

Inspiration generally gets ignored when discussing crit vs. haste, but ability to keep Inspiration uptime on multiple targets is a significant factor in some fights and is one argument for crit 'scaling.' In a vacuum (pure single-target scenarios), crit percent is irrelevant due to the fact that it is more or less guaranteed to be up.

However, in scenarios where you can only spare between one and three casts every 15-20 seconds for a secondary target, having a high enough crit percent to make an Inspiration proc extremely likely in that time is valuable. (Penance can be very helpful for this type of healing if it is not immediately needed on the main target, as not only does it have 3x chance to proc Inspiration, but it applies a full stack of Grace.)

Basic probability rules can illustrate this pretty easily - going with the three-cast scenario:

- At 20% crit (80% * 80% * 80%) there is a 48.8% chance to apply Inspiration in three casts.

- At 30% crit (70% * 70% * 70%) there is a 65.7% chance to apply Inspiration in three casts.

- At 40% crit (60% * 60% * 60%) there is a 72.9% chance to apply Inspiration in three casts.

Divine Aegis

Though DA does not improve the throughput value of crit above (or even close to) spellpower or haste, it provides another shield (due to DA shields proccing based on total, not effective, healing done) and thus extends effective HP pool for topped-off targets. This effect is difficult to model mathematically, so it should just be noted that reducing crit too low makes DA unlikely to be up on the target, therefore devaluing one of the primary unique benefits of Discipline as a spec.

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Looking at it from a more meta perspective though, why would you assign disc to anything other than single target healing? In general, disc is a single target healing spec. Yes, for 10 mans, crit is plenty nice, but in 25 mans my gear is certainly past the point where additional crit is doing me much good, and I'm shifting my gearing away from it.

Divine Aegis just has shitty synergy with... divine aegis. It's a really sad thing, but the more you get of it, the less you want it. I think that with any boss who is not hitting remarkably fast, Aegis beyond 25-30% crit (with weakend soul) is semi-worthless if we're single target healing. If they ever change things with Aegis, I'll revisit it, but at the moment I think I'm going to be regearing to not top 30% fully raid buffed with weakened soul, and I might scale even that level down. It really depends on what Ulduar has, lots of raid healing encounters might raise the value of crit a lot.

Haste, the more heals you get, typically the more healing you do. It's pretty much a linear thing - more haste = more cast (until the various caps).

Oddly, I think holy may actually scale better with crit than Disc.

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I want to submit a list of gear which currently has my priority over the lsit alrdy shown (thus leaving parts already mentioned out)

Neck: Life-Binder's Locket (more int more regen)

Chest: Either: Robes of Mutation

or: The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments

Ring: Renewal of Life

Sorry for the post it's not ment to undercut anyone, but I think these options should be mentioned, currently I am wearing arround 80% of the gear on my wishlist (See list of gear mentioned at the beginning of the post and add these last 3 items) But what I noticed in game, is even with the low ammount of haste on my gear, arround 6-7% (thats not raidbuffed just gear) I end up with 15-20% haste raidbuffed. And I already get the 1 second cap on my FH. (this is with either PI or heroism, PI I got arround 1.05 second cast on FH)

About the int I got fully buffed, is arround 28k. Spellpower +- on 2200, with shaman totem arround 2400

So what I also like to see added are the elixirs that are great for disc:

Elixir of Mighty Thoughts

Spellpower Elixir

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Looking at it from a more meta perspective though, why would you assign disc to anything other than single target healing? In general, disc is a single target healing spec. Yes, for 10 mans, crit is plenty nice, but in 25 mans my gear is certainly past the point where additional crit is doing me much good, and I'm shifting my gearing away from it.

There is some fights were you have several offtanks. In Razzavious for example, I'm responsible for the healing of the 2 OT, and I spend my free time on the raid. We have several other healers on the tanking add.

In such fights, I spend less than 1 third of my time on each tank I'm healing.

Same can be on Patchwerk. We don't do it, but I can imagine to have one disc priest swapping from one tank to another, shielding every one, and then keeping grace and inspiration on each.

Last point : again, we run as 2 disc. priest for the moment. That's not optimal, but we have 4 healing priest, and only 1 paladin. The other disc. priest is often on the MT. I tend to be on the OT (when there is one). For lots of fights, OT healing is not full-time. When I have free time, I help the raid healing with flash. High crit rate means that I have more chance to keep inspiration on the MT.

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Looking at it from a more meta perspective though, why would you assign disc to anything other than single target healing? In general, disc is a single target healing spec. Yes, for 10 mans, crit is plenty nice, but in 25 mans my gear is certainly past the point where additional crit is doing me much good, and I'm shifting my gearing away from it.

Tank healing (which disc does well) does not necessarily equate to single-target healing. In 25-man raiding, true single-tank encounters are the exception rather than the norm. The ability to cover more than one target with is one of Disc's strengths. Off the top of my head, I can think of any number of fights where being able to keep healing and/or mitigation on multiple targets is advantageous:

- Malygos: Healing raid spike damage in between the tank healing.

- Kel'thuzad: Add tanks & main tank.

- Patchwerk: Tanks & soakers.

- Sarth+3: Main tank & drake/add tank.

And so on. Now, none of these encounters generally require careful multi-management of tank healing, but that's a function of the (non-)difficulty of the encounters, not the nature of Disc healing. I also believe that Blizzard intended Discipline healing to work in that way. Reactive heals are usually wasted if you're on a single target. Just faceroll GHeal; it's all you'll need. Plus, Disc has a number of innate advantages when used this way:

- Passive haste (rather than straight spellpower, for instance) via Enlightenment: More haste means multi-tasking is more feasible, plus makes reactive healing much more plausible.

- Penance: A fast, big, reactive heal on a CD is perfectly suited to this type of healing. It applies all three stacks of Grace at once and has an extremely high chance of applying Inspiration as well given the amount of time casting it.

- Borrowed Time: Makes it extremely easy to drop a shield on a secondary target given a break and lose little throughput on a primary target. (Plus it makes re-applying Inspiration and DA easier.)

- Divine Aegis: As pointed out, it doesn't stack well 'with itself,' that is, when being used on an isolated target. It overwrites too much in that scenario. But if you are able to spread out healing between two targets, for instance, the chance of both DAs being used increases dramatically.

EDIT:

Same can be on Patchwerk. We don't do it, but I can imagine to have one disc priest swapping from one tank to another, shielding every one, and then keeping grace and inspiration on each.

This is exactly what I do on Patchwerk. Shields every CD on the offtanks (or MT if you have the time) eat a LOT of the damage - and keeping BT constantly up means that Penance can fill in a good amount of what the shields don't cover.

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Tank healing (which disc does well) does not necessarily equate to single-target healing. In 25-man raiding, true single-tank encounters are the exception rather than the norm. The ability to cover more than one target with is one of Disc's strengths. Off the top of my head, I can think of any number of fights where being able to keep healing and/or mitigation on multiple targets is advantageous:

- Malygos: Healing raid spike damage in between the tank healing.

- Kel'thuzad: Add tanks & main tank.

- Patchwerk: Tanks & soakers.

- Sarth+3: Main tank & drake/add tank.

And so on. Now, none of these encounters generally require careful multi-management of tank healing, but that's a function of the (non-)difficulty of the encounters, not the nature of Disc healing. I also believe that Blizzard intended Discipline healing to work in that way. Reactive heals are usually wasted if you're on a single target. Just faceroll GHeal; it's all you'll need. Plus, Disc has a number of innate advantages when used this way:

- Passive haste (rather than straight spellpower, for instance) via Enlightenment: More haste means multi-tasking is more feasible, plus makes reactive healing much more plausible.

- Penance: A fast, big, reactive heal on a CD is perfectly suited to this type of healing. It applies all three stacks of Grace at once and has an extremely high chance of applying Inspiration as well given the amount of time casting it.

- Borrowed Time: Makes it extremely easy to drop a shield on a secondary target given a break and lose little throughput on a primary target. (Plus it makes re-applying Inspiration and DA easier.)

- Divine Aegis: As pointed out, it doesn't stack well 'with itself,' that is, when being used on an isolated target. It overwrites too much in that scenario. But if you are able to spread out healing between two targets, for instance, the chance of both DAs being used increases dramatically.

EDIT:

This is exactly what I do on Patchwerk. Shields every CD on the offtanks (or MT if you have the time) eat a LOT of the damage - and keeping BT constantly up means that Penance can fill in a good amount of what the shields don't cover.

I'm currently rolling disc (as you can see), I'm just questioning the value of crit as a stat for us. Take the fights you talked about:

Malygos - Phase 1: assuming we're not under 12 seconds from a vortex, Aegis on the random damage targets seems... random. Yes, sometimes he hits the same guy twice. It happens. I'd say 80% of the time Aegis falls off without doing anything.

Phase 2: Enough random damage to enough targets that I could be really generous and say that only 50% of the time it falls off without doing anything.

KT - DEFINITELY agree. I've healed both tanks many times, Aegis shines here. That being said, its worthless on ice blocks.

Patchwerk - we tend to assign healers to tanks rather than have people jump about. I GUESS we could do it so that the disc priest is keeping a grace stack etc, but honestly... too much work for no reward. I toss shields about too - but shields don't crit.

Sarth+3 - not enough experience, may shine here.

I just can't see enough reason to gear for crit over haste from these examples. I'd rather have more heals than Aegis most of the time. It's just much better as a passive mitigation skill that is a bonus, rather than something that is proccing and overwriting itself constantly.

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Ironically, I think you actually hit the crit nail on the head yourself:

It's just much better as a passive mitigation skill that is a bonus, rather than something that is proccing and overwriting itself constantly.

I think this is exactly right. Crit(/DA) is not a good throughput stat, as such. It is, however, a good mitigation ability that can provide extra effective health for affected targets.

On Malygos: I think you've got the emphasis backwards. I would argue Aegis' value isn't on the random damage targets. It's value is on the tank (on which I'm assuming your primary focus is), giving you some extra mitigation time which you can then use to spot-heal the raid. Outside of fights like Sapphiron, DA is a terrible raid-healing talent.

My point in bringing up the examples I did isn't that crit (or haste) provides particular benefits for those fights, but that if you isolate the tank+tank or tank+raid healing scenarios in them, the talented value of both crit and haste (as well as where Discipline can bring something unique and valuable to the table) become much more apparent.

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The discussion of crit vs haste on different boss fights suggests to me that we should be preparing multiple gear sets for Ulduar. (Depending on the fight and your current assignment, for example, you might swap out 3 pieces of haste gear for 3 pieces of crit gear. This might include swapping out the exact same piece with one that has different gems/enchants).

Question: How many different gear sets should we be preparing?

I can see the following being situationally useful:

1. Crit set (with ~5-10% more crit than your normal gear)

2. Haste set (with ~5-10% more haste than your normal gear)

3. Endurance set (stacking intelligence, and perhaps secondary regen stats)

4. Holy set (for dual spec as holy)

5. +Hit set (for dual spec as shadow, or MC pulls)

6. Stamina set

(I am not including resist sets in this list, as I expect Blizzard to provide level 80 patterns for them when the need arises).

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Raid healing:

It's not BAD to raid heal as disc, but you need to understand a few things first. If there's a localized AOE, CoH and CH are just plain better. *BUT* there are certain situations where disc can do decently enough as raid heals. If it's a fight like Sapphiron, where there is steady damage going out there, you should feel free to pop out a PW:S on pretty much anyone. Any caster will benefit from the uninterruption, and you get mana back from the shield being absorbed. So putting a PW:S on anyone is beneficial. Also, disc is TERRIFIC at saving the random person who's in danger of getting 2-shot (Malygos phase 2). A shield+Penance+FHeal can easily save some random in the raid.

Again, though: those fights are isolated. There are situations where disc can do an adequate job raid healing, although it still doesn't have the tools like CoH. A targetable PoH in 3.1 may prove to be worthwhile, though.

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