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Keruen

3.1 PTR

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While the GS glyph is interesting, I still think it will require complicated UI watching to know if your GS cooldown got reset or not. It seems like almost more of a headache than it's worth. While It is definitely a nice one, I don't think it's worth giving up Flash Heal, PoH, or CoH glyphs for.

TellMeWhen

TellMeWhen - Addons - Curse

this mod is a great help with spell cooldowns.

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I've played around a bit with serendipity on the PTR and I have mixed feelings about it. You have to cast either one binding heal (assuming that's not bugged) and one fheal at a minimum to get one hasted prayer of healing. The buff lasts for 20 seconds, but is only good for one cast of gheal or PoH. It just seems incredibly spammy. It's a lot of haste, no doubt (I had about 1 second PoH's and 0.8sec gheals), but I'd rather have a haste buff that was less haste for a longer time period. Perhaps something like the pally talent. This just seems almost frenetic and if Blizzard is actually wanting us to be more deliberate about our heals this talent seems to work counter-intuitively to that.

I also have a shaman and when I first saw Serendipity it reminded me a bit of Maelstrom Weapon. The big difference is that Maelstrom procs off things you'd already be doing and Serendipity forces you to cast a certain spell in order to build up a buff totally negating the fact that flash or binding may not be what you would already be casting. You can't build up serendipity by casting Renew or CoH or even gheal. Personally I'd rather cast 3 renews on group 2 and get a fast PoH for group 4 or something that doesn't relegate me to flash heal spamming so I can blow a PoH on the group the shaman already chain healed while I was screwing around w/ serendipity.

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Just something real fast for those who are testing various aspects of shadow spec. They stated that Spirit Tap, and imp Spirit Tap were getting their regen values buffed. Also, I imagine Dispersion will have several "15sec of fame" moments based on boss spells we currently see from data mining. The big issue is, and has been brought up here and on most subject related forums, is will the change to shadow form kill our crit scaling, or will we see SP give bonus to DoT's. I have 25% crit, 220haste, and I am concerned about the prospect of having to re-gear..... Again. At the bottom of my concern list is where I keep the question of IF affecting DoT criticals.

What I would like to see is testing specifically how the current PTR model crit scaling will affect in-combat class/glyph buffs, and if it was blizzards intention that such buffs be a means to off-set the supposed overall nerf.

edit: I am keeping my original post unchanged, so that my update will make sense.

Ghostcrawler recent posted this in DD forums with regard to the issue of DoT's and scaling with crit

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

* 19. Re: 3.1 shadow priest of the future. 02/26/2009 02:12:10 AM EST

quote reply

I think Shadow priests will be in a good place. For PvP they got a much-needed tweak to Psychic Horror, but I won't spoil it here.

For PvE, I think the changes will help their scaling in the long run. I suggested in another thread that we might need to make their Shadow spells crit at 200% in order for the Shadowform change to actually be a buff. But we are fully committed to having the dots crit. The game just works better that way.

The Shadow Ulduar 4 piece set bonus is pretty sweet too.

So we can atleast surmise that they are aware of the scaling issue, and are discussing changes. I guess now it leaves us with wondering whether the 200% will be given to us? Or will the current build be about where we stay?

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Another interesting factor that I haven't really seen mentioned anywhere, is if the dot is critting, our meta "should" come into affect on those crits, again boosting total damage over the old style of increase dot damage.

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Regarding talent changes and cookie cutter specs...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft has been my baseline spec since hitting 80. I was under the impression that this spec was typical of shadowpriests... I personally consider imp-Sform a core talent, because there are so many fights with aoe damage and around 50% of my dps is a channeled spell. Shadow Affinity, Imp-VE, Veiled shadows, and to some extent, shadow reach, are all optional talents. None of them increase your DPS in any way, although shadow reach does allow more flexibility in where you dps, which can be considered a gain.

In TBC, on a fight like Brutallus, I was counted as a DPS and a healer. And a dps or hps multiplier... that can no longer be considered the case. Our hps, even with 2 points squandered in imp-VE isn't even enough to top off warlocks after life-tap anymore. So, picking any talents except those which directly increase dps, either by enhancing damage spells or skills, or increasing mana efficiency, is an optional talent.

My error with blackout is a great point, but even with: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=050320300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000325023051023010323152301351&glyph=000000000000&version=9626 you're really only losing 2 talent points over the baseline current spec, and there's obvious flexibility without losing mainline damage or mana regen talents.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=050320300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000325023051203012323152301351&glyph=000000000000&version=9626 Is certainly a possibility for max mana regen potential if you're used to staying a little closer (SWD glyphers)... Synergy between Inner Focus and SW:P will decide whether or not it becomes a main line talent, or if it remains an optional slight dps increase or mana efficiency talent.

I'll not argue with the opinion that the shadow tree is bloated, it certainly is, but there is certainly enough flexibility to get everything you think you need to be effective in a raid, progression or otherwise.

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Would the changes in pally aura's decrease the need for improved shadow form (at least in a raid setting)? Yes, the loss of snare removal could be potentially harming, but the loss in cast time from damage isn't very substantial (.1 seconds difference). That could free up two points in a spec to go elsewhere shadow affinity should threat be an issue, or imp VE.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=050320310000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000325123051223010323150301351&glyph=191117030000&version=9626

Is Shadow Reach absolutely necessary or just nice to have? I doubt the necessity of it.

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note: PoH is an oh @#$% spell for situations like Gluth Decimate and Archavon stomp or Loatheb easy button.

Serendipity has always been kind of a silly use of 3 talents as the best healer in the world will keep the tank at 99% health.

At least now when a bunch of noobs in your Vault pug are standing in the cave-ins on trash you can pop a PoH on them without losing your tank because the other healers are more interested in trading for mage food...

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Is Shadow Reach absolutely necessary or just nice to have? I doubt the necessity of it.

I personally consider it mandatory, but that is really personal preference. At least I consider it one of the best talents that is not a direct DPS increase.

There are fights where it is worthless (Patchwerk being the prime example) but there are also enough fights with a lot of respositioning (Sapphiron, Sartharion) where it simply allows you to dps 6 yards earlier. Not to forget any fights where the raid has to spread out to avoid nasty chain effects. Here the added flexibility of 6 yards more range is definitely worth it.

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Serendipity has always been kind of a silly use of 3 talents as the best healer in the world will keep the tank at 99% health.

There are plenty of fight mechanics that guarantee that regardless of healer skill target health will be below 50% - Sarth+3D breath healing is probably the best example.

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my point was Serendipity is useless unless you are overhealing.. the 263 mana you got by overhealing with Gheal could have been a 400 mana savings by casting flash heal instead..

either way in my book serendipity is no better or worse than it was before.. all your spiffy mana savings came from SoL and HC anyway

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my point was Serendipity is useless unless you are overhealing.. the 263 mana you got by overhealing with Gheal could have been a 400 mana savings by casting flash heal instead..

either way in my book serendipity is no better or worse than it was before.. all your spiffy mana savings came from SoL and HC anyway

Erm, no. It's a tank healing talent in high throughput situations. Here is a WWS log from a recent Patchwerk (25) kill open to the gains, buffs, and debuffs section, which shows Serendipity gains. Patchwerk is the quintessential single target healing scenario, where you need to spam Greater Heal to keep your OT alive. I cannot just use Flash Heal (well, I probably could, but it'd be a really stupid way of healing the fight unless we had brought too many healers).

In this fight, my Serendipity gains were comparable to my replenishment gains (though I think our replenishment was a little shaky in play that night, and I didn't have BoK). It is also a huge help when I run Heroics, as I use GH on the tank, and spot heal with FH to top up DPS. It is a tank healing longevity talent. I am sure that my Serendipity gains from Sarth +2D MT healing this week have a chance to look similar. It isn't the largest part of our mana gains in a fight by any means, but it isn't completely useless either.

However, any fight where I didn't use FH or GH, Serendipity quickly went down in value, such as Sapphiron.

The benefit to the new Serendipity is more flexibility in our HPS, and less sniping of large heals, as well as the fact that it is a guaranteed gain, instead of one where you can't get behind or you start using 25% more mana. Other than that, it's not comparable as it's comparing a throughput talent to a regen one.

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So, after doing an hour of Hodir testing ... here's my new 2nd spec:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=050320313050051030030000000003550103030215153000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=020515000000

It's basically a "I cast Flash Heal, Renew, and PoM on raid damage a lot while running in circles taking less magic damage than everyone else" spec. Some variations are possible (including picking up 5/5 Emp Healing), but it seems pretty close to max efficiency for that particular role.

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Would you take Emp. Healing over Serendipity? Hasted Greater Heals should be as fast / faster than Flash Heals...

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I was basically looking at it from a pure Flash perspective. If you had a raid healing situation where you wanted to mix/match, then I think dropping the points from Imp FH and Enlightenment to get the deeper holy talents would make sense. But, at that point, you're basically just trading DP for MS and filler points for MA.

It's basically predicated on the idea that Imp FH increases crit chance on most raid healing targets to ~ 40% raid-buffed, which is 100% up-time on HC, which is awesome mana regen.

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As with Nidaba, I was able to get in some healing tonight on Hordir (though only the 10-man version). Overally it was a very interesting fight and with Empowered Renew working correctly, the fight would have been easily healed by 2 healers (we used three just while testing and two for our last attempt).

We hit 19% and found the only rough part was when Hordir rocks out his bonus frost damage buff.

Here is some great stuff I noticed on the PTR:

Holy Concentration, even in my still hasted out crit set of 17% holy crit unbuffed I had very good Holy Concentration uptime. Didn't have to potion, but did use my shadow fiend, [item]Spirit-World Glass[/item] and Inner Focus every fight. I also was using Inner Focus with a Binding heal to try to get a holy concentration proc and then popping the SWG.

Here are some screenshots of my healing breakdown for two attempts:

hordirptr1.jpg

hordirptr2.jpg

[edit]

Oops, forgot that Hordir will not be up (thanks typobox). But if anyone wants me to test anything specific I can hopefully check it out in a raid setting against the Iron Council. Also my partner it crime, Cahrin, is usually disc so if you want him to test something I can pass that on to him as well.

Also help me to keep this thread bumped about some of our bugged talents.

[edit 2]

So I've been going over talents and though I agree with Nidaba about how the Hordir fight was a non-stop flash fest I still find it hard to make a spec that beat this build for overall effectiveness. The only thing I can really think is making a build that ignores the new Prayer of Healing stuff, though I would still want serendipity because flashing consistantly would eventually build up to a greater heal that is faster and more efficient than a flash (leads me to this build). Anywho, need to sleep. Can't think when I am tired.

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my.php?image=hordirptr1.jpg

my.php?image=hordirptr2.jpg

When we try Hordir tomorrow (and likely kill him), I'll post a WWS and if anyone wants me to test anything on the fight please ask within the next ~12-16 hours.

Think you've got bad links on the images. [e: fixed it as I was posting]

Also, is Hodir going to be up tomorrow? I was under the impression that this was a one-night thing, and Iron Council will be the only available boss tomorrow.

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Holy talent build

What do you think about this? The main difference between mine and other speccs I've seen in this thread so far is that I have only 1/3 Empowered Renew. If we use Renew exclusively as a tank stabilizer and another instant while moving it might be worth thinking about.

Renew ticks for 1600 (unglyphed) at around 2500 spellpower (depending on the number of points in Improved Renew)

1/3 Empowered Renew brings Renew from 8k to 8635 (8000+8000*0.05*+2500*1.88*0.05)

3/3 Empowered Renew: 9905 (8000+8000*0.15*+2500*1.88*0.15)

That's a difference of 1270 healing done. If we use one renew every 15 seconds it's "42.3 hps per talent point", which is hardly amazing in my opinion. Of course this number scales linear with the number of Renews you cast, but then we're at the point if it's not going to be sniped during the 15 seconds anyway. (less with the Glyph, but I can't help myself not liking it much... but that's just a gut feeling)

Another way of benchmarking the use of those 2 points would be:

The increase you get is about 15% more (from 1/3 to 3/3)

If Renew is 10% of your total healing done, you'd gain about 0.75% (10*0.15*0.5) of increased total healing per point.

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So, after doing an hour of Hodir testing ... here's my new 2nd spec:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?priest=050320313050051030030000000003550103030215153000000000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=020515000000

It's basically a "I cast Flash Heal, Renew, and PoM on raid damage a lot while running in circles taking less magic damage than everyone else" spec. Some variations are possible (including picking up 5/5 Emp Healing), but it seems pretty close to max efficiency for that particular role.

hm, I like the idea behind it, but the spec seems to need some more work. Why Spiritual Healing 5/5 and Focused Power 0/2? Spiritual Healing 3/5 and Focused Power 2/2 gives you the same amount of healing, some extra damage and additionally a fast Mass Dispell. Power Infusion is also a nice trade off at the expense of one point if you're that far down in disc. And I don't understand taking 0/5 Divine Fury and 3/3 Improved Healing. Of course the alternatives aren't great (like Holy Reach) but without using Greater Heal Improved Healing is a waste of points. Or do you use a 3 second Greater Heal with that spec?

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The change to rapture though was a much bigger nerf than the change to divine plea - this does nothing but further solidify paladins in their position as the only tank healer.

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My point of view as a holy priest focused on pve.

There will be (source MMO) a 40% nerf at the coefficient in the regen formula, so this is a clear out of combat regen nerf.

Increase on meditation (50%) means exactly the same regen in combat as (1-0.4)*0.5=0.3

* Circle of Healing: Healing increased by approximately 40%.

Clear Buff

* New Talent: Empowered Renew: Your Renew spell gains an additional 5/10/15% of your bonus healing effects, and your Renew will instantly heal the target for 5/10/15% of the total periodic effect.

So now it ticks lets say 1480(*5) = 7400hp total effect. Assuming 2k sp, 15% of bonus = (x3)+900. Also 15% of total becomes instant = 8300*0.15=1245 So now the ticks become (8300-1245)/5=1411 . In raids i mostly need the periodic healing the hots offer so this is a nerf in my eyes.(In the case I am wrong about the x3 coefficient that multiplies the bonus healing effect, the calculations are a bit off).

* Serendipity re-designed: When you heal with Binding Heal or Flash Heal, the cast time of your next Greater Heal or Prayer of Healing spell is reduced by 6/12/20%. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 20 sec.

20-60% haste = 2- 1 sec greater heals which is cool. The regen part is nerfed.

Holy Concentration re-designed: Mana regeneration is increased by 16/32/50% for 8 sec after you critically heal with Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Binding Heal or Renew.

Since as it leaves only a 3 sec window, combination with ooc will be almost impossible as it depends on crit. In combat now : assuming raid buffed 500ic and 1500ooc regen in a 300sec fight staying 20% of time ooc

Now the total regen is (0.3*1500/5)*240+(1500/5)*60=39.6k mana

In the future ( assuming 50% of ic time the buff up) (1.25*0.5*0.6*1500/5)*240+(0.6*1500/5)*60=40.8k mana which is roughly the same so net effect is the loss of the clearcasting.

Test of Faith: No longer increases critical effect chance of your heals, but healing done on targets lower than 50% health is increased from 2/4/6 to 4/8/12%.

so the critical part is removed which nerfs the holy concentration buff but the raw heal is increased.

In conclusion, from my perspective, the mana regen is nerfed (old Serendipity procced a lot as ovehealing cannot be totaly avoided in a raid) and clearcasting is no more. I mostly dislike the loss of clearcasting as it is a fun ability to use and a lifesaving one.

p.s. corrections are always welcome :)

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As with Nidaba, I was able to get in some healing tonight on Hordir (though only the 10-man version). Overally it was a very interesting fight and with Empowered Renew working correctly, the fight would have been easily healed by 2 healers (we used three just while testing and two for our last attempt).

...

Is there any special reason why you used greater heal only once?

I mean, Serendipity should have been stacked some times where you could have cast a pretty fast gh. Was there simply no need for it, would it have been a waste of mana?

Just finding it interesting as it seems that the benefit out of serendipity seems pretty low.

To the poster above me:

Is it clear that the initial heal of empowered renew is substracted from the total amount healed?

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I was basically looking at it from a pure Flash perspective. If you had a raid healing situation where you wanted to mix/match, then I think dropping the points from Imp FH and Enlightenment to get the deeper holy talents would make sense. But, at that point, you're basically just trading DP for MS and filler points for MA.

It's basically predicated on the idea that Imp FH increases crit chance on most raid healing targets to ~ 40% raid-buffed, which is 100% up-time on HC, which is awesome mana regen.

I like the idea of this spec and will very likely make that, or something close to it, my secondary healing spec.

As for the main healing spec, I was thinking something more all-round, as we don't always have every kind of healer in every raid, in my guild. This spec seem to be the best all-round spec I can come up with. The reason I post this is because I haven't noticed anyone else suggest only taking 3/5 Divine Fury.

With 3/5 DF, 3 stacks of Serendipity will give your greater heal a 1.2s cast time, not taking haste from gear into account. With the changes to all of our AoE healing abilities, holy reach seems like an awefully good talent, and much better than the final 2 points in DF.

I realise that the jury is still out on whether it's worth having 2/2 SoL, but in cases like this where you would have to heal both the tanks and the raid, I'm confident that it is a very worthwhile talent. If nothing else it will serve as a good emergency heal if a raid member is a bit too slow to move out of the "fire".

Also, ToF seems immensely more powerful than BS based on the few Ulduar fights we have seen so far. Practically every hit from Hodir will take the tank below 50%, and the raid damage is massive. Also, one thing people tend to forget; 12% when they are on low health is a hell of a lot more important than 3% when they are on 80% health.

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Assuming chaincasting of GCD-long spells, how much would the crit chance % needed to have 100% HC uptime?

Depends on the haste you have and thus the number of gcd you are able squeeze in 8 seconds (I will use renew for this calculation, as it procs HC at the same time of the cast, as opposed to FH, that only procs it at the end of the cast)

The formula would be: HC uptime = 1-(1-crit)^(n-1)

Where n = number of gcd you're able to chain in 8 seconds, and would range from 6 (up to 12% of haste) to 8 (32% or + haste)

I'm using (n-1) as the exponent as I'm already assuming the first cast is a crit, so we start with 8 seconds of HC and only subsequent casts can refresh its uptime.

HC uptime would never reach exactly 100%, though it would be pretty near.

For n=6, hc uptime would be: 67%, 83% and 92% (for values of crit = 20%, 30% and 40% respectively).

For n=7, hc uptime would be: 74%, 88% and 95% (for values of crit = 20%, 30% and 40% respectively).

For n=8, hc uptime would be: 79%, 92% and 97% (for values of crit = 20%, 30% and 40% respectively).

However, this model is a simplification, as it really doesn't find HC uptime, but the percentage of times after proc'ing a HC that it is renewed before it expires. Finding HC uptime would involve a more complex model that would have to take into account which of the n-1 casts refreshed HC and how much time in average it would take to proc HC once it has expired.

One can say however that if in this simplification HC uptime = 100%, then the real HC uptime would also be 100%.

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