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nightcrowler

FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool)

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I've done a lot of work on the code, now it should be easier to read and quicker. I've made some changes on cat algoritm and changed some gear (trinkets). I've runned bear simulation. Now I only had to finsh the addon. Main page, tables and links updated.

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Bear questions....

Why does haste have a negative value? Doesn't more attacks mean more SD procs?

What exactly does "Night's Choice" mean? IOW, why did you inflate some values over those in the first column (like hit)?

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Night's Choice is my personal stat choice, if you want to know how is build is the following:

70% Stamina-equivalent tankpoints + 30% ap-equivalent TPS. After that I've inflated by 20% hit an expertise and reduced by 10% ArPen. Reason for those changes: hit it's the best threat stat (after expertise) because make it stable, we all know that missing 2 hit at the begining of the fight or missing a taunt is really really bad. Expertise because parry gibbs can shoot you but obviously an averaged out fight can't weight that. ArPen was reduced because is the only stats affecting only threat, with boss hitting for less all other aggressive stats increase their TP value except ArPen.

Haste has a negative effect due to increasing parry gibbs and a positive effect due to increasing shield chance. The border line is at 52 expertise. (If you are expertise capped 1 haste = 3 Stam-EQ_TP).

Chocing gear for tanking is not like chocing it for cat. DPS is 1 number and you should maximize it. For tanking & healing the situation is more complicated and more subject to flavor (for example I personally like to gem for stam/exp) that's why I've put TP, DPS, TPS in separate collumns and then suggested my value, but you can build your own starting from them.

Edit: changed 2t8 bonus with the right proc chance (2%).

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From another thread, I thought it was worth bringing the discussion of the topic here...

Here is an example report from my sim (best in slot and raid buffed, 2T7+shred glyph + SR glyph):

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 51.6857%

Cat (AP): 10738

Expertise: 25

Hit: 8.02074%

Armor Penetration: 24.5205%

Haste (from equipment): 10.6648%

Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 11900

Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 6826.37

Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 30.9461%

Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total with Windfury): 27%

Missed % (Total): 0%

Dodged %: 0.248855%

5 minute fights (10k simulations)

with rip glyph:

DPS: 6888.68 +/- 2.11081

White cat: 2030.19, Yellow cat: 4858.49

White: 29.4713%

Mangle: 5.20451%, Avg dmg: 4589, #/cycle: 2.13419),

Shred: 23.4303%, Avg dmg: 8003.44, #/cycle: 5.509),

RIP: 20.8473%, Avg dmg: 44621.2, #/cycle: 0.879185)

Rake: 16.7622%, Avg dmg: 12987.9, #/cycle: 2.42863),

Ferocious Bite: 4.28438%, Avg dmg: 15324.9, #/cycle: 0.526092, Average Energy Usage: 35)

Savage Roar uptime: 98.0435%

Average Cycle Time: 27.3172 seconds

Mangle debuff uptime: 91.937%, Mangle-RIP debuff downtime: 7.20694%

with mangle glyph:

DPS: 6802.07 +/- 2.10665

White cat: 2031.44, Yellow cat: 4770.63

White: 29.865%

Mangle: 3.59395%, Avg dmg: 4564.29, #/cycle: 1.47221),

Shred: 25.9634%, Avg dmg: 8004.4, #/cycle: 6.0646),

RIP: 19.1706%, Avg dmg: 38298.9, #/cycle: 0.935882)

Rake: 18.0811%, Avg dmg: 13035.3, #/cycle: 2.59342),

Ferocious Bite: 3.32593%, Avg dmg: 15329.1, #/cycle: 0.405664, Average Energy Usage: 35)

Savage Roar uptime: 98.5194%

Average Cycle Time: 27.4871

Mangle debuff uptime: 93.9575%, Mangle-RIP debuff downtime: 4.7852%

So, with that output, SR uptime looks good-- but Rake uptime is very low. I know there's logic in there that's supposed to hold off on shredding when mangles and rakes are expiring (specifically "(mdebuff_timer>=((rake.energy-(10+en-shred.energy))*10))&&(rake_timer>=((rake.energy-(10+en-shred.energy))*10))".

Is this code working effectively though? I'd think we can get better uptimes than that if we're purposely waiting for energy. (For reference-- the default mangle profile in SimulationCraft achieves similar uptimes without waiting on energy for rakes-- which means, we should be able to do better).

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For tanking & healing the situation is more complicated and more subject to flavor (for example I personally like to gem for stam/exp) that's why I've put TP, DPS, TPS in separate collumns and then suggested my value, but you can build your own starting from them.
So, do you hope to gain avoidance, crit and hit from gear, enchants (+agi/stats), food, potions and gem +sta/exp?

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Armor Penetration: 24.5205%

someone can tell me how much ArPenRate it is to get the 24%?

and does it mean that ArPen will get one of the best stats with upcoming changes?

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someone can tell me how much ArPenRate it is to get the 24%?

and does it mean that ArPen will get one of the best stats with upcoming changes?

15.395 ArPenRating = 1% Armor Penetration (correct me here if wrong, took it from feral numbers)

It seems like ArPen is going to be very strong stat, semiquoting nightcrowler:

Stats value

[TABLE]Stat | points

Armor Pen (shred) | 28.4

Agility | 26.9

Armor Pen (RIP) | 26.8[/TABLE]

So with shred idol, ArPen is the best stat with the gear selection nightcrowler used in his sim.

With rip idol, ArPen is very close to agi.

Keep in mind that the more ArPen you have, the better the stat becomes. So if you have almost none on your gear now, agility is better. 24% is pretty high, I personally have around 11% on my PTR char.

You get to know more if you read night's post, he explains ArPen further in Discussion section. Or you could read Feral numbers thread, where Wulfmanjack posted how good ArPen is with Ulduar loot, and how it gets even better if you gem for ArPen:

Gemmed for armorpen the value goes even higher

Armorpenetration Rating: 1,73

Agility: 1,60

Edit: Sorry to Nightcrowler for ruining his name

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Do you have an ETA for this add-on? I am very interested to see how it is going to work =D

With Nightcrowler getting himself a rather lengthy temporary ban, I'm not sure what the ETA for the add-on or updates to the current models/simulations will be. I too am anxious to see it in action since most of his information seems to be very good theorycrafting.

If anyone is in contact with him (he has his profile set to not receive e-mails or accept private messages) and could either relay information or post up a location where he is continuing this research and development, it would be greatly appreciated.

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I know Nightcrowler may not post for a while, but is anyone able to redo the numbers on this accounting for the recent primal gore, rend and tear and savage roar changes?

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About Glyph choce

Abviously if you have a mangle bot the best glyph choce is: SR+RIP+SHRED but what about mangle?

Glyphs DPS

SR+RIP+SHRED 6890

SR+MANGLE+SHRED 6799

SR+RIP+MANGLE 6695

Do you think that with the Savage Roar Glyph Nerf to 3% that it is still part of the optimum glyph choice for Feral DPS, SR+RIp+Shred ? or can it be replaced with Mangle+Rip+Shred or Berserk +Rip + Shred

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How good will Executioner enchant be after stacking allthose arp items and gems?

(You have an additional 120 armor penetration rating for 15 sec.)

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How good will Executioner enchant be after stacking allthose arp items and gems?

(You have an additional 120 armor penetration rating for 15 sec.)

Likely still not as good as Lightning Speed - Spell - World of Warcraft from Mongoose. Even with ArP being higher than Agi, it's not high enough to counter the ~65.5 Haste Rating on top of the 120 agi.

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How good will Executioner enchant be after stacking allthose arp items and gems?

(You have an additional 120 armor penetration rating for 15 sec.)

Can you verify the proc has been changed to 120 rating? I haven't found anyone able to confirm it being updated yet.

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Can you verify the proc has been changed to 120 rating? I haven't found anyone able to confirm it being updated yet.

The data in Wowhead agrees with the text of the proc, that it's +120 ArP. I don't have an executioner-enchanted weapon to test for sure, but I trust it to be true.

And I agree with Boevis, ArP may be better, but it doesn't make up for the haste.

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" Remember to put "additional armor value" inside "armor value" if you want to see the real ranking for neck, rings, trinkets, back, weapon. "

I checked thru the bear gear selections you had and noticed that every neck, ring, trinket, back and weapon stood way out on top if it had additional armor on it. I would not of thought Defenders Code (213 purple) and Offering of sacrifice (200 blue) to be leaps and bounds better than say the Darkmoon card greatness (agility). The same goes for cloaks the lvl 187 blue Flowing Cloak of Command beats the lvl 213 purple badge bought cloak (platnium mesh).

Is there something that has changed in 3.1 that make even the blue quality item lvl 200 things with "additional armor" close to best in slot now?

Also, I have one suggestion for the gear selection. Change the item level from 200 to 187 as there are several blues that just seem to be made better for tanking druids according to the way stats are weighed

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If you're talking about Nights Choice Rankings, as you noticed they aren't treating Armor as Additional Armor appropriately, [item]Figurine - Monarch Crab[/item] has a score over 10k before counting the use effect, [item]Offering of Sacrifice[/item] just breaks 5k with the use. Wowhead clearly isn't applying additional armor or use effects properly. However more often than not, the Extra Armor items are better than those without (Cloak, Rings, Neck) but this is by design, not a function of the strength of extra armor (ex. it would be a simple thing to lower the defense for more dodge/sta and change the socket to red or blue on [item]Gale-Proof Cloak[/item] and it would actually be better than [item]Cloak of the Shadowed Sun[/item]

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First of all, sorry for my ban, I'll try to pay more attention to forum rules in the future.

Now start with replies (in random order):

- ArPen is a very good stats for 2 reason: it increase quicker than linear (the more you have the better) and has recived a 25% boost with 3.1

- I have an high value of ArPen in my sim because I use Grim Toll (averaged out).

- If you look at Wowhead, trinkets are ranked only for raw stats (on use can't be ranked), you can look at the good post: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t39500-feral_trinkets/

- As for extra armor, wowhead doesn't handle extra armor properly, a way to go around it is to put "extra armor" value inside "armor" cell and then reload the filter: In this way, also remember that in my sim I consider inspiration basically always up (right at least for me, I have 100% inspiration uptime when I tank).

- For Allev: yes, there is something strange in the "mangle" cycle.

I've updated the code for the latest patch, I'll put the report and the new code online very soon, I'm also reviewing the algoritm due to addon result (it's easier to notice that a code is working in strange ways when "you" are the simulator). I'm also working full time at the addon. The addon will have different component:

- suggestion panel (a modified version of facemauler basically)

- a "real stats" panel (your real crit vs. bosses, your real armor pen value considering sunders, etc.. and so on, the panel change on the fly and it's used to compute the best ability for the suggestion panel)

- an hud: mana, energy, rage, threat, life, boss casting bar (to do). Al with color changing due to status.

- a cooldown monitor: feral abilities with timers & cooldowns

At the moment I'm working on cd monitor and bear suggestion panel then I'll add other goodies but I can do them after the first release.

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Going by your link for BiS items, using the best items and using Grim Toll and Greatness, you are over the hit cap by 62 hit rating not counting Icewalker. Is this what you used in your simulation? If not, then what specific gear are you using?

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Going by your link for BiS items, using the best items and using Grim Toll and Greatness, you are over the hit cap by 62 hit rating not counting Icewalker. Is this what you used in your simulation? If not, then what specific gear are you using?

I assume you are talking about cat simulations (I'm at 269 hitrating, 5 points over the cap, will be probably better to change icewalker with agility on boots, I'll make the change with the newer sims).

Trinket:

Grim Toll

Greatness (agility)

Ring:

Ring of Invincibility

Ruthlessness

Head: T7.25

Shoulders: T7.25

Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen

Back: Drape of Deadly Foe

Chest: Chestguard of the Recluse

Hands: Frosted Androit Handguards

Feet: Dawnwalkers

Bracers: Sinner's Binding

Belt: Stalk-skin Belt

Legs: Leggings of the Honored

Weapon: Journey's End + Berserking

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I assume you are talking about cat simulations (I'm at 169 hitrating, 5 points over the cap, will be probably better to change icewalker with agility on boots, I'll make the change with the newer sims).

Trinket:

Grim Toll

Greatness (agility)

Ring:

Ring of Invincibility

Ruthlessness

Head: T7.25

Shoulders: T7.25

Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen

Back: Drape of Deadly Foe

Chest: Chestguard of the Recluse

Hands: Frosted Androit Handguards

Feet: Dawnwalkers

Bracers: Sinner's Binding

Belt: Stalk-skin Belt

Legs: Leggings of the Honored

Weapon: Journey's End + Berserking

Yes, Cat simulations, sorry. Also, I assume you have some typos as you would be 269 with icewalker and be 6 over the hit cap. Also, am I correct in assuming rawr's calculations aren't up to par?

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Yes, Cat simulations, sorry. Also, I assume you have some typos as you would be 269 with icewalker and be 6 over the hit cap. Also, am I correct in assuming rawr's calculations aren't up to par?

Yes sorry, was a typo. Rawr calculation are completly right for equip and total stats (I usually use rawr to verify them) as for dps/stats value the main difference is that rawr and similar programs uses a statistical approach (and usually simplify the cycle to do it like don't using FB) while mine program and programs like SimCraft use direct simulation of a fight, if made properly they should be more accurate.

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Thank you for your hard work, it is appreciated :)

I was wondering if the gear list you gave:

Trinket:

Grim Toll

Greatness (agility)

Ring:

Ring of Invincibility

Ruthlessness

Head: T7.25

Shoulders: T7.25

Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen

Back: Drape of Deadly Foe

Chest: Chestguard of the Recluse

Hands: Frosted Androit Handguards

Feet: Dawnwalkers

Bracers: Sinner's Binding

Belt: Stalk-skin Belt

Legs: Leggings of the Honored

Weapon: Journey's End + Berserking

If you consider this gear list to be BiS before 3.1? If so, I'm wondering about the 2 ring options. I would have expected more Greatring of Collision and Surge Needle Ring. Also, not considering the new Ulduar gear but considering the 3.1 changes, it that list BiS or no?

Thanks!

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If you consider this gear list to be BiS before 3.1? If so, I'm wondering about the 2 ring options. I would have expected more Greatring of Collision and Surge Needle Ring. Also, not considering the new Ulduar gear but considering the 3.1 changes, it that list BiS or no?

If you check his Armory, that is what he is wearing now (or very close to). From my experience fiddling around with Rawr, I believe BiS (current gear and patch) would indeed be Greatring of Collision and Surge Needle Ring, along with Wristwraps of the Cutthroat for wrist and Footwraps of Vile Deceit for feet.

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