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Liandra

Warrior vs Druid Tanks

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Hey guys,

over the past few days we've had some discussion about Druid tanks vs Warrior tanks in our guild. We have been progressing nicely in BWL recently (no guides, all self-taught) and are up to Ebonroc now. We don't always have enough Warriors, so sometimes a Druid appears in the MT list.

This raises some interesting questions, like:

* How exactly do you compare a Prot Warrior to a Feral Druid?

* Can a Druid be used to tank Vaelastrasz?

* How much does a Druid lose by not having a Shield and Parry?

We have not really been able to find any good stats about this. There is some addon called TankPoints which supposedly shows how 'good' a Tank is, but I have no idea how trustworthy those numbers are.

Do you have any experience in this? Could anyone shed some light on this in a more mathematical or game mechanical way than "omg droods suck use prot tanks kthx"?

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At 6pm today, 13 our 30 online members were warriors. One was a druid. We don't have this issue. :)

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Warriors are the best tanks period, I've only ever seen druids emergency tank mobs in mc so im not sure how they would hold out through some duration fights...

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No druids are not comparable to warriors. They aren't itemized for it, and they lack parry and block.

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If they keep adding items like dark heart pants, malfurions bulwark, and boots of the shadow flame, druids could come very close to warriors.

Druids can get higher health and armor than warriors, and can generate similar levels of threat. However, lack of parry and block makes a huge difference, and druids will always take 10% more elemental damage than warriors. Plus there's very little defense gear for druids so they'll have to endure critical strikes.

I don't think a druid will ever surpass a protection warrior, but I do believe they can do pretty damn well.

There's currently no real incentive to have a druid as MT other than for the hell of it, or to see if it can be done, when just about any guild has 30 warriors and there are two complete sets of tanking gear for warriors. Well I guess maybe if your warriors were crappy or undergeared you'd want to use a well geared druid instead.

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We have not really been able to find any good stats about this. There is some addon called TankPoints which supposedly shows how 'good' a Tank is, but I have no idea how trustworthy those numbers are.

TankPoints is just your effective hit points. It basically factors in your health with your forms of reduction and mitigation. It gives a nice idea of how durable a tank is, but I don't think it's 100% reliable in determining how "good" they are at taking damage, because it's very skewed towards stamina. I mean, someone with a bunch of crappy stamina gear could theoretically produce a similar value to someone with a bunch of good epics.

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There's currently no real incentive to have a druid as MT other than for the hell of it, or to see if it can be done, when just about any guild has 30 warriors

Well, that's the problem - we do not have 30 warriors. We have a guild that is barely large enough to do MC/BWL. Hence the Druid tanking, if some warriors are unavailable. We have 3 prot tanks with (almost) full Might and 300+ FR, but hey, they also have stuff to do IRL (gasp) so they can't always be there :)

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But what about the other side? Receiving damage? Getting critted? Not having Parry/Block?

That should pretty much speak for itself in the fact that they do not have parry or block, or +defense gear. Their armor is a little better yes, but they will still be getting crit more frequently and not mitigating as much.

A druid will take noticably more damage.

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Your generic WoW boss, with 4-5K crits incoming often, no, you're much better off having someone with last stand, block, and 400 defense tanking that.

Druids may well end up being raid tanks for certian bosses. Say you have a boss (or an off-tank needed boss) with a small deaggro and a constant torrent of low amounts of physical damage (say 2x500 every second). A druid could MT that better than a warrior.

Anyways, it would be absurd if a druid could be a general better tank in the end game than a warrior. But like everything else, a druid in a compatible spec, with foreknowledge to put the gear on before the fight starts, should be able to fill in at around 80-90% effeciency (depending on the fight) for a warrior. Just like a druid with compatible spec and gear can fill in 80% for a rogue, or a mage, or flat out heal a priest silly (I suspect that the priest revamp will put us at 80% there, too).

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I still want to see a raid boss that either polymorphs the MT or does an unavoidable disarm ("Dropped Weapon") on the MT. Come on, it's so simple!

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I still want to see a raid boss that either polymorphs the MT or does an unavoidable disarm ("Dropped Weapon") on the MT. Come on, it's so simple!

Nefarion, and the disarming royal from silithus. Cleanse spam and weapon chain ftw!

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I still want to see a raid boss that either polymorphs the MT or does an unavoidable disarm ("Dropped Weapon") on the MT. Come on, it's so simple!

Yea, a tight aggro fight with an unpreventable disarm would be a great place to make a druid tank.

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That would be pretty cool, but it won't happen. Can you imagine the uproar from guilds that have denied Druids feral gear up untill now? :)

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That would be pretty cool, but it won't happen. Can you imagine the uproar from guilds that have denied Druids feral gear up untill now? :)

But the druid talent revamp is why you don't ever have a hope of seeing said encounter. The encounter would have to be designed around a druid with basically no talents. Then when you break down the encounter it would be significantly easier for anyone with HotW, which is precisely why you don't see a talent like this deep in protection.

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But the druid talent revamp is why you don't ever have a hope of seeing said encounter. The encounter would have to be designed around a druid with basically no talents. Then when you break down the encounter it would be significantly easier for anyone with HotW, which is precisely why you don't see a talent like this deep in protection.

Interesting point. I have two thoughts:

1) Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be tuned around a min-max'd druid, nor would it be the entire point of the fight. But it would be cool to switch up the traditional roles a bit and let druids tank something more than the occasional add when you're short on warriors.

2) I wonder, though, can you really not design any fights that are made singificantly easier by having a single player having a certain talent spec? Why not? In a 5-man zone, sure. But shouldn't one of the advantages of 40-man content be that you can reasonably assume the presence of at least 1-2 players with a given talent spec? Shouldn't diversity be valued over homogenity? If there are no feral druids on a guild raid, is that maybe because the current content is too one-dimensional?

Ebonroc and Lethon are incredibly easier if you have a warrior or two with MS. No one complains, of course, because what kind of raid lacks MS warriors? Azuregos, trivial though he may be, is even moreso with Shield Slam, but it's Azuregos, so whatever.

So why couldn't you design a fight that was significantly harder if you didn't have a druid with 30 feral talents?

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But the druid talent revamp is why you don't ever have a hope of seeing said encounter. The encounter would have to be designed around a druid with basically no talents. Then when you break down the encounter it would be significantly easier for anyone with HotW, which is precisely why you don't see a talent like this deep in protection.

My previous comment was in jest, but to respond:

Firstly a lot of this is based upon reading the Druid forums as opposed to personal experience (although I'm working on that :).)

If you had said Feral Instinct I might have agreed, but I seriously doubt that not have 20% extra HP would prevent a guild using a Druid tank if such a situation required it. Horde guilds were able to do encounters that the Alliance did with the benefit of Blessing of Kings (no comments on Blessing of Salvation - that's another story) without a significant increase in difficulty in most cases. The basic Druid skills all generate the same levels of threat regardless of talent build (if we ignore feral instinct, which is to Druids what Defiance is to Warriors afaik), and given that most Druids consider agility to be a primary tanking stat then I dare say that Druids are capable of making up for lost parry that Warriors have via increased dodge. Certainly a larger pool of hitpoints helps Druids soak up the extra critical strikes that a Warrior would avoid, but they also have other advantages/features/blah:

- Larger armour soak: It all adds up in the end.

- Demoralizing Roar reportedly decreases DPS taken by a percentage (something like 10% according to several posts i've seen on the Druid forums) as opposed to a flat AP reduction that Demoralizing Shout gives.

- Swipe seems to act like sunder armor (but generates less threat)

- Maul is the Druid version of Heroic Strike (and supposedly applies more threat than the damage component does)

- Polymorph Immunity (thought i'd include this, given that the proposed encounter is based upon it.)

- I'll include Heart of the Wild simply because I'm sure Druids in many guilds would jump at the chance to respec because only they were able to tank a particular encounter; so Heart of the Wild would help make up the few percent critical strike reduction that they lack when compared to Warriors. Crushing blows are a moot point, as defense doesn't mitigate those (as far as I'm aware.)

Sure, Druids don't have the snap aggro generation that a Warrior does, but given enough time they'd build up enough hate for DPS to go in and have the mob remain on the Druid throughout the encounter.

If anything, the only disadvantage I can see is that Druids are lacking the additional 10% elemental damage reduction that Warriors recieve in defensive stance (thanks Beef for pointing this out a few days back.)

Disclaimer: This is all theorycraft!.

Edit: Damnit, Gurgthock! Get back to work instead of replying to posts before me!

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Interesting point. I have two thoughts:

1) Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be tuned around a min-max'd druid, nor would it be the entire point of the fight. But it would be cool to switch up the traditional roles a bit and let druids tank something more than the occasional add when you're short on warriors.

2) I wonder, though, can you really not design any fights that are made singificantly easier by having a single player having a certain talent spec? Why not? In a 5-man zone, sure. But shouldn't one of the advantages of 40-man content be that you can reasonably assume the presence of at least 1-2 players with a given talent spec? Shouldn't diversity be valued over homogenity? If there are no feral druids on a guild raid, is that maybe because the current content is too one-dimensional?

Ebonroc and Lethon are incredibly easier if you have a warrior or two with MS. No one complains, of course, because what kind of raid lacks MS warriors? Azuregos, trivial though he may be, is even moreso with Shield Slam, but it's Azuregos, so whatever.

So why couldn't you design a fight that was significantly harder if you didn't have a druid with 30 feral talents?

Do I disagree with you from a philosphical perspective gurg, no not at all. I think, and always have thought you really should get SOMETHING from protection, more hp, more resistance, ability to shield party members, SOMETHING.

But blizzard has never seen it this way, and thus has said they will never buff protection to the point where either you NEED a protection tank to tank something, or the encounter becomes significantly easier with a protection tank, and that's what I'm pointing at here.

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My previous comment was in jest, but to respond:

Firstly a lot of this is based upon reading the Druid forums as opposed to personal experience (although I'm working on that :).)

If you had said Feral Instinct I might have agreed, but I seriously doubt that not have 20% extra HP would prevent a guild using a Druid tank if such a situation required it. Horde guilds were able to do encounters that the Alliance did with the benefit of Blessing of Kings (no comments on Blessing of Salvation - that's another story) without a significant increase in difficulty in most cases. The basic Druid skills all generate the same levels of threat regardless of talent build (if we ignore feral instinct, which is to Druids what Defiance is to Warriors afaik), and given that most Druids consider agility to be a primary tanking stat then I dare say that Druids are capable of making up for lost parry that Warriors have via increased dodge. Certainly a larger pool of hitpoints helps Druids soak up the extra critical strikes that a Warrior would avoid, but they also have other advantages/features/blah:

- Larger armour soak: It all adds up in the end.

- Demoralizing Roar reportedly decreases DPS taken by a percentage (something like 10% according to several posts i've seen on the Druid forums) as opposed to a flat AP reduction that Demoralizing Shout gives.

- Swipe seems to act like sunder armor (but generates less threat)

- Maul is the Druid version of Heroic Strike (and supposedly applies more threat than the damage component does)

- Polymorph Immunity (thought i'd include this, given that the proposed encounter is based upon it.)

- I'll include Heart of the Wild simply because I'm sure Druids in many guilds would jump at the chance to respec because only they were able to tank a particular encounter; so Heart of the Wild would help make up the few percent critical strike reduction that they lack when compared to Warriors. Crushing blows are a moot point, as defense doesn't mitigate those (as far as I'm aware.)

Sure, Druids don't have the snap aggro generation that a Warrior does, but given enough time they'd build up enough hate for DPS to go in and have the mob remain on the Druid throughout the encounter.

If anything, the only disadvantage I can see is that Druids are lacking the additional 10% elemental damage reduction that Warriors recieve in defensive stance (thanks Beef for pointing this out a few days back.)

Disclaimer: This is all theorycraft!.

Edit: Damnit, Gurgthock! Get back to work instead of replying to posts before me!

How about a druid having 30% more hp (HotW + kings) vs a horde druid with no hotw.

If you've made the encounter a single mob, and you're staying away from elemental damage, and you're limiting knockbacks, other than the gimmick that encourages a druid tank what could you do to make the encounter hard. The only thing from the current style of raiding would be, beat the shit out of them. And in any case where the mobs does huge damage the bigger hp pool you have the easier the encounter is.

With regard to your druid comments.

Armor soak means nothing since most bwl geared tanks are at about 61-63% mitigation, and it caps at 75%. Toss in the 10% reduction from defensive stance, and the damage is about the same, and the warrior isn't getting crit, ever.

Demoralizing Roar.

http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=9898

http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11556

It's actually less effective and the aura mod is the same.

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Much of the empirical testing done by Druids (who have tanked mobs like Ragnaros with no difficulty) more knowledgable than I supplied most of the information for my post; so I'm not willing to discount things like Demoralizing Roar based simply upon something on Thottbott.

And yes, a Druid with 30% more HP as opposed to one with 20% more would have an easier time of it. Welcome to Alliance vs Horde.

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Much of the empirical testing done by Druids (who have tanked mobs like Ragnaros with no difficulty) more knowledgable than I supplied most of the information for my post; so I'm not willing to discount things like Demoralizing Roar based simply upon something on Thottbott.

And yes, a Druid with 30% more HP as opposed to one with 20% more would have an easier time of it. Welcome to Alliance vs Horde.

Er, Thottbot is more empirical than any player testing. It's the actual game data files.

Now, a lot of things, like most aggro generation/reduction, and so forth, are not plainly visible in those files, and must be worked out. But where Thott gives you an actual number, that is the number.

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Shrug, whatever the case; a lot of people think that Druids make viable tanks in comparison to Warriors in a variety of situations. So despite my making jokes about feral Druids earler I don't think possible future encounters should be disregarded simply because of a talent revamp :).

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Er, Thottbot is more empirical than any player testing.

Oh, and empirical measurements are gotten from observation and experimentation.

Just sayin ;) .

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