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constantius

WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing

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Related to this, it's worth noting that we as priest might need to start collecting two healing sets, one focused on mana efficiency and another on throughput. I think part of this dispute comes from applying a "one size fits all" gearing methodology to the variety of boss fights in the game. Neither a "hit these arbitrary thresholds" nor a "follow these arbitrary weightings" heuristic can do justice.

I think all of us should be doing this - a General V set and a re hps set - But i think the thing people ned to understand is that 125 SP is always better than 65 Int on the proviso that you can regen your SP gems to more +Int for more benefit.

Secondly, things like mana tides/vates play a massive role in whether or not you run oom - at least equal if not more to that of your gem choices.

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I think all of us should be doing this - a General V set and a re hps set - But i think the thing people ned to understand is that 125 SP is always better than 65 Int on the proviso that you can regen your SP gems to more +Int for more benefit.

That's making the assumption that you have spellpower gems in the first place.

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Can you please give an argument why 125 SP should be better than 65 Int?

To be honest I don't care for Spellpower and the last time I did was MC. When was the last time someone died because your heal was 300 to small? We have a good chunk of overheal. Not every heal is an overheal but nearly every time someone is healed to full one has a big overheal. So healing for some more only will result in more overheal. It takes a long run for more Spellpower to make a difference in heals you need to cast for a given dmg.

Sure 2900 SP is different from 1900 SP. But most of that 2900 SP comes from your gear. It is there anyway. At the moment most items of a given item-level have the same SP (and the same Int) applied so SP and Int from gear are something like constants. All the differences come from enchanting, gemming and flask/buffood. You can gear for spirit, haste, crit, mp5 but you cannot gear for int or sp. So the differences in SP or Int between characters is not so high that you will reach the point where you have to cast much less to make SP a regen-stat as you imply.

Back to when people die. They die because healers cannot spare the mana or they die because healers are not fast enough. The only ones who may occasionaly die because you cannot heal the amount needed are tanks. This discussion came from a holy-priest PoV. So tank healing is not our focus. (And even there most times you have a huge amount of overheal and more SP would only result in more overheal.)

For raid-healing you do not safe people with more SP. In most cases it is irrelevant when you safe someone if he ends up with 50% or 55% life. But it may be relevant if you heal him .2s earlier or later. So haste is a stat that can safe lifes. SP in most cases is not. Yes, haste hurts our mana but it is the best stat to safe people. Raidhealing is about saving people not getting the highest possible HPS.

As for crit. If you crit your heal is much bigger than without the crit - so this can make a difference in #of heals to cast. But most times even this is irrelevant. We go for crit to get the other things that procc from it. (Which is some form of regen for a big part).

Regen can safe people, too. If it enables you to cast all the big heals without thinking for a longer time or start with them earlier. And unlike SP regen works over the whole length of an encounter. If you get 65 int you will get the mana for another cast sometimes. If you get 125 more SP your benefits are cut of every time you get an overheal.

Sure if you do not need that mana you will not benefit from it. But then I would try to go for haste or crit not pure SP.

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That's making the assumption that you have spellpower gems in the first place.

Well, unless you're gemming for stat-balancing with Haste and Crit then the only reason not to use Spell Power gems is if you have Mana problems. If all your sockets are gemmed for Regen and you still have Mana problems, thus requiring Distilled Wisdom, then you probably have bigger problems than the difference between the two flasks. It would appear that your raid takes too much damage, or that your healing isn't efficient enough, or perhaps that you have far too few healers, or maybe your gear is below par.

On the whole Flask discussion as a whole

If your raid is less disciplined, sniping HoTs, not avoiding damage quickly, forgetting Health-stones, ignoring Lightwell, using Immunities solely for threat issues and so on and so forth, then you will need more mana. Some of these are especially true during new encounters and will not be an issue in a few weeks. This whole discussion seems to boil down to the quality of the raid. If people make few mistakes and the dps is high, keeping fights short, then you don't need as much Mana. There's not an aweful lot the healers can do here. Their job is to keep people alive. If people make mistakes their job becomes harder and requires more mana. Particularly for new encounters having spare mana to cover for people's mistakes is a big asset to a raid and I would only reduce my available mana when I'm confident that I won't need the excess.

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I find this discussion is interesting, although it seems like people are pretty defensive about the subject. I think the fact that there can be such varying opinions on something as simple as stats is both a testament to the fact that healing is more an art than a science and that healing philosophy and it's ramifications can vary widely from guild to guild.

There are a few people who have posted very definitively that for progression, regen is king and throughput is of secondary importance. From my experience though, I tend to approach the situation from a different perspective; with proper raid support is it possible for me (or another healer) to completely replace one of our healers for more DPS? While most people think of this as being a farm strategy (drop healers for DPS) we find it to be extremely important on progression (especially hard modes) when people are the most under geared. High raid DPS is the best kind of Mp5 and the shorter the fight the fewer opportunities for the kinds of stupid mistakes that waste mana.

My point is, it's all about your guild strategy. If you prefer a slow and steady burn on the boss, then I can see regen being of the utmost importance. For some people, however, the plan is to burst the boss down using every possible CD in the process and bringing the absolute fewest healers possible. If that's the philosophy then gearing for throughput is a "progression" strategy. This strategy requires the support and buy-in of the entire guild; you can't just make that decision on your own if it's counter to your guilds plans. Everyone has a horror story of that healer who was asking for innervates a minute into the fight, and you don't want to be that guy UNLESS that's the strategy. I always find it funny when healers brag about never using an innervate like it's some kind of accomplishment. If it's hurting your raid (taking it from a healer in a more important position or taking it from a DPS that needs it for a burn phase or DPS check for example) then absolutely, it's good to not use it. On the other hand, if at the end of the encounter no one used the innervate it was just wasted and could have been put to use.

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For raid-healing you do not safe people with more SP. In most cases it is irrelevant when you safe someone if he ends up with 50% or 55% life. But it may be relevant if you heal him .2s earlier or later. So haste is a stat that can safe lifes. SP in most cases is not. Yes, haste hurts our mana but it is the best stat to safe people. Raidhealing is about saving people not getting the highest possible HPS.

This is my thought process as well. Our job as raid healers is not to drop massive gheals on that tank. We are to keep everyone else alive. Look at it like triage. Who needs a heal right this second and who can wait for the shamans chain heal or the druid hots. High amounts of crit and haste allow us to get to low targets faster and bring them to an acceptable level. I think a lot of people forget that unlike dps being competition, healing is a team sport. We all fill our niche. After you've taken care of the critical people then you can start looking at topping people up or getting serendipity charges up in preparation for the AOE burst. Where yet again it's better to get the heal off and move to the next target as fast as possible as opposed to healing for more.

I don't think any math is needed to realize that a target who gets a heal and survives at 30% hp is better off than the one who would have gotten a heal a half second to late and been at 40%.

I run with about 450-500 haste depending on a few items I swap in and out. I have no issues with throughput, rarely have mana concerns and the only people with more output than me(usually) are damn OP resto druids :P I'll agree spellpower is important, sure, but I have enough of it. Using regen centric buffs, Ie Flask of Distilled Wisdom, Cuttlesteak or Nettlefish allow me to sustain the healing for longer periods of time AND increase my crit. Who doesn't love free flash heals?(and holy concentration procs)

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Can you please give an argument why 125 SP should be better than 65 Int?

To be honest I don't care for Spellpower and the last time I did was MC. When was the last time someone died because your heal was 300 to small? We have a good chunk of overheal. Not every heal is an overheal but nearly every time someone is healed to full one has a big overheal. So healing for some more only will result in more overheal. It takes a long run for more Spellpower to make a difference in heals you need to cast for a given dmg.

I don't think this is the proper way to approach the question. If you are in a situation where there's a lot of overhealing, it's generally because the healing is light and you can afford to overheal. In that case, yes, spell power doesn't help. But neither does haste, crit, or regen, as you've already "solved" the healing problem. What's probably happening is that you have too many healers in the raid, and you should cut them for DPS until you are in a situation where there isn't a lot of overhealing.

If there's not a lot of overhealing though (which in Ulduar is typical a heavy AoE damage situation), then extra spell power really does save lives. When you heal for an extra 300 damage but don't top someone off, that margin can mean topping them off isn't as important as healing someone else instead.

The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power

-97 Int (-1.5% crit)

-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)

-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.015 * 0.5 * 22500 = 168 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 320 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 320 = 1215 extra damage healed per prayer, or 243 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.

I find this discussion is interesting, although it seems like people are pretty defensive about the subject. I think the fact that there can be such varying opinions on something as simple as stats is both a testament to the fact that healing is more an art than a science and that healing philosophy and it's ramifications can vary widely from guild to guild.

I think there are some parts of healing that are art and other parts that are science. But lets not call the science parts "art" just because some people don't have math backing up their opinions. The math is out there and it seems to disprove these intuitions. We should treat healing with as much science as possible, even if it will never be 100% science like DPS can be.

This is my thought process as well. Our job as raid healers is not to drop massive gheals on that tank. We are to keep everyone else alive. Look at it like triage. Who needs a heal right this second and who can wait for the shamans chain heal or the druid hots. High amounts of crit and haste allow us to get to low targets faster and bring them to an acceptable level. I think a lot of people forget that unlike dps being competition, healing is a team sport. We all fill our niche. After you've taken care of the critical people then you can start looking at topping people up or getting serendipity charges up in preparation for the AOE burst. Where yet again it's better to get the heal off and move to the next target as fast as possible as opposed to healing for more.

I don't think any math is needed to realize that a target who gets a heal and survives at 30% hp is better off than the one who would have gotten a heal a half second to late and been at 40%.

You need to look at the actual numbers though and see what you are really getting. You are arguing that extra spell power is useless because it can overheal, but haste is great because it can top people off faster. Looking at the numbers extracted from Constantius' armory, the actual loss would be 0.5% haste and the gain would be 188 spell power. That much spell power will increase the healing of a flash heal by 5% but make it cast 0.5% slower. And by 0.5% I mean 1/200th. That's 7.5 milliseconds slower. How can anyone argue that you're saving lives in the extra 7.5 milliseconds of haste, but not in the extra 120 damage healed by Flash Heal?

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The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power

-32 Int (-0.5% crit)

-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)

-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.005 * 0.5 * 22500 = 56 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 206 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 206 = 1329 extra damage healed per prayer, or 265 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.

I'm not sure how you can only lose 32 int if you're switching from distilled wisdom to frost wyrm.

Also, your math assumes that 35% crit rate is a 35% increase. Since heals only crit for +50%, a 35% crit rate is a 17.5% increase. Also, you're not including the spellpower coefficient of prayer of healing.

Besides, no one's arguing that distilled wisdom is a superior throughput flask. It's used for mana regen.

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I'm not sure how you can only lose 32 int if you're switching from distilled wisdom to frost wyrm.

Also, your math assumes that 35% crit rate is a 35% increase. Since heals only crit for +50%, a 35% crit rate is a 17.5% increase. Also, you're not including the spellpower coefficient of prayer of healing.

Besides, no one's arguing that distilled wisdom is a superior throughput flask. It's used for mana regen.

Sorry that should have been 97 int, which is 1.5% lost. Edited the post with the new numbers, but it's still heavily biased towards spell power.

I did count the "crits heal for 50% more" in the formula:

The crit loss costs 0.015 * 0.5 * 22500 = 168 healing

The 0.5 is the 50% coefficient.

The spell power coefficient of Prayer of Healing is 1.0 I thought, so it was implicit. Even if it's 3.0/3.5 though, the net change is still over 1000 extra healing from the proposed gear/consumable swap.

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-snip-

The real impact is for group healing though. I did a quick analysis of gemming in Constantius' gear for example, and if he switched his gems from int/haste focused to spell power, and started using Frost Wyrm instead of Distilled Wisdom, here's the net change in stats:

+192 spell power

-32 Int (-0.5% crit)

-16 Spirit (-4.5 spell power)

-16 Haste (-0.5% haste)

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375. The crit loss costs 0.005 * 0.5 * 22500 = 56 healing and the haste lost costs 0.005 * 30375 = 152, for a net loss of 206 healing.

That makes the total net change be 1535 - 206 = 1329 extra damage healed per prayer, or 265 per target. Even with something like 40% overhealing, this is still a clear win.

The the +sp case you have as 188*1.1*1.1*1.35 when I actually think you should be showing it as 192*.8057*1.1*1.1*(.65+1.5*.35) which instead yields a value of ~220.

Obviously switching from heavier regen stats to output stats will result in an output gain. Whether that is needed/desired is a completely different evaluation.

Rather than looking at absolutes you should probably look at it from the % gain/loss standpoint. So really what you are modifying is the (base+sp*coeff) portion of the healing value so looking at the comparison it should be shown that it is a (2150+2892*coeff)/(2150+2700*coeff) = 1.0357% of the original value, @2700 SP... You should notice that as SP from other sources increases the gain from a static value source like Frost Wyrm or an individual gem decreases. Then if you evaluate the haste & crit cost you would find that ((1+.5(Crit-0.015))(Haste - .005)/((1+.5Crit)(Haste)) @20% haste 30% crit = .9893% the spell power loss is less than .001%..

So +SP you gain ~3.57% throughput at the loss of ~1.07%, for a net gain of ~2.5%. In the process you lose mana regen, which should be accounted for if you want a valid comparison of the trade off considering it is obvious that the gemming/flask isn't for it's throughput it is for the regen.

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Sorry that should have been 97 int, which is 1.5% lost. Edited the post with the new numbers, but it's still heavily biased towards spell power.

I did count the "crits heal for 50% more" in the formula:

The 0.5 is the 50% coefficient.

The spell power coefficient of Prayer of Healing is 1.0 I thought, so it was implicit. Even if it's 3.0/3.5 though, the net change is still over 1000 extra healing from the proposed gear/consumable swap.

According to the 1st post in this thread, the PoH coefficient is 80.7%. I think that's based off 1.88 (for being a healing spell) * 3/3.5 (for cast time) * 0.5 (for being an aoe spell).

Also, that's not the only formula in your post that used crit.

How does this change affect a Prayer of Healing? For prayer, it's an extra 188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.35 (crit rate) per target. That's 307, or 1535 total, not counting heals from the glyph and ignoring overheals (for now). We need to account for the loss of 0.5% crit and haste though. With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 30375.

That should be:

188 * 1.1 (Spiritual Healing) * 1.1 (Divine Providence) * 1.175 (benefit from crit rate) * 0.807 (poh coefficient)

With 2700-ish spell power, a typical non-crit prayer of healing hits for 22500 for the whole group. Including a 35% crit rate, this is an average 26437.

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I've been looking at Ulduar boss fights on wowwebstats.com and wowmeteronline.com for estimates of general mana usage and efficiency. Here are some rough data points to provide context:

* For a typical 5 minute fight, one third of the mana pool comes from the base mana and one third is from Spirit regeneration. About 30% is replenishment and shadow fiend and other things that scale based on total mana. The other 5% is from random procs, potions, and such. This is on the order of 60k mana total.

* Increases in intellect are linearly correlated with around 63% of total available man and have a square root correlation with the 33% from spirit. In other words, if you increase your base mana pool by 10%, you'll increase your total available mana by maybe 7%.

All of this is for holy by the way. Sorry, discipline priests. (Side note: we might want to fork two separate theorycrafting threads, as the equations change quite a bit for discipline.)

So with that in mind, we can calculate the mana lost from losing 97 intellect and 16 spirit. After accounting for kings, this is 107 int and 18 spirit on the character sheet.

Intellect: Worth 1605 base mana, or 3210 throughout the fight. Also increases total spirit regen by 5%. This is another 976 mana, for 4186 total.

Spirit: Worth 390 mana in a 5 minute fight with 30% holy concentration uptime.

So the total gain is 4576 mana. That's... decent but not amazing. How much of that mana is actually spent? If you're ending fights above the 4.5k mana mark, then the intellect was useless. If you're ending exactly at 0 mana, then I understand the justification. I ran some quick numbers on how much of that extra mana you'd need to spend for it to beat spell power, and if you even end the fight with 1200 extra mana, spell power still won.

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For your side note, there is a Discipline compendium as companion to this one. Right now I think most of us are waiting for TheDoctor's spreadsheet.

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I started churning through some numbers, but found some major discrepancies between mine and yours, and don't have time to finalize it now. One note that I definitely can point at where you're off is your estimate of 1/3rd base + 1/3rd spirit. If you are limiting it to *only* spirit-based regen, that's fine and it works out about correct, but if you're just basing it off "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs", then it's more like 40% from that, and under 25% from mana pool size.

Typical holy mana pool size is ~ 23,000. At 500 Mp5 I5SR, you get a minimum of 30,000 mana back from I5SR regen over a 5 minute fight. HC procs only increase this number (by up to 6-7k).

The other thing I noticed is that you say 107 intellect (raid-buffed) is worth 4.2k mana. This is incorrect. It is 1605 base + 803 shadowfiend + 578 mana tide + 1203 (replenish) + spirit-based ~ 5.1k.

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I started churning through some numbers, but found some major discrepancies between mine and yours, and don't have time to finalize it now. One note that I definitely can point at where you're off is your estimate of 1/3rd base + 1/3rd spirit. If you are limiting it to *only* spirit-based regen, that's fine and it works out about correct, but if you're just basing it off "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs", then it's more like 40% from that, and under 25% from mana pool size.

Typical holy mana pool size is ~ 23,000. At 500 Mp5 I5SR, you get a minimum of 30,000 mana back from I5SR regen over a 5 minute fight. HC procs only increase this number (by up to 6-7k).

The other thing I noticed is that you say 107 intellect (raid-buffed) is worth 4.2k mana. This is incorrect. It is 1605 base + 803 shadowfiend + 578 mana tide + 1203 (replenish) + spirit-based ~ 5.1k.

It's true those calculations ignore m/5, but Holy priests don't have any of that on their gear (if they can help it). The estimates from WWS reports were:

* 1/3 Base mana

* 1/3 Spirit-based Regen

* 1/3 Replenishment, Shadow Fiend, and other stuff that scales off base mana

What you term "regen that comes every 5 seconds without procs" is really the merger of the second two categories. I separated the two categories react differently as your base mana pool increases.

My estimate was 4500 mana from 107 intellect included base, shadow fiend, replenish, and spirit altogether. I ignored mana tide because I never get it, and frankly never needed it. (We normally give it to shaman, paladins, and occasionally DPS casters.) If you include that 600 mana from mana tide, you get the 5.1k number you cite. So our estimates are in agreement there.

For the record, a typical holy mana pool is only 23k for priests intentionally stacking int. For priests stacking spell power, it's between 20k and 21k. You are estimating 37k total mana from general continual effects like replenishment and spirit. When added to a base mana pool of 20k to 23k, this is 57k to 60k total mana. Add another 3k for incidental procs (metagem, potion) and you have between 60k to 63k total mana, which is in line with my estimate of 60k total mana in a 5 minute. I think we are in agreement on this point too.

So what's the major discrepancy?

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How can anyone argue that you're saving lives in the extra 7.5 milliseconds of haste, but not in the extra 120 damage healed by Flash Heal?

It's quite simple really. That amount of time could be the difference between the heal actually hitting the target or it already being dead. Now I'll admit 7.5ms isn't a long period of time, that is true. However thats that much sooner I can start my next cast, the next one after that and the next one after that. 120 dmg healed means nothing when the person ticks to death the instant before your heal lands. Higher probability of a living target or a sneeze worth of extra dmg healed, that is the question.

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It's quite simple really. That amount of time could be the difference between the heal actually hitting the target or it already being dead. Now I'll admit 7.5ms isn't a long period of time, that is true. However thats that much sooner I can start my next cast, the next one after that and the next one after that. 120 dmg healed means nothing when the person ticks to death the instant before your heal lands. Higher probability of a living target or a sneeze worth of extra dmg healed, that is the question.
That's true for fights like Ignus where you basically only need one heal on each person to save their life from flame jets, but for something like Hodir where each player is taking 40k damage over 20 seconds, its very possible for spell power to make the difference between life or death. Obviously haste is great for Hodir too.

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You can make the same argument in reverse though. The vast majority of the time, that 7.5 millisecond window is NOT enough to kill the person. Perhaps that 7.5 millisecond window is only lethal when you have 188 less spell power and your previous heals hit for less. Maybe when you stack spell power, casting a heal 7.5 milliseconds later isn't as dangerous because people have been topped off better. At any rate, you are making a really dubious argument based on hypothetical situations with no probabilities attached to them. I guess I'm not convinced by that.

On the subject of haste and the impact of having 21%, I ran some more numbers on this. Note that 8% of the haste is from raid buffs, leaving 13% from gear. As a holy priest, I have actively tried to avoid haste as a stat and have unfortunately ended up with 11% on my gear. Lets assume someone has done a better job of gearing and has similar ilvl gear with only 9% haste on it. This is the difference between 17% (low haste value) and 21%.

There's the claim that you can "really feel the difference" between 17% haste and 21%. But how much of an actual difference is there in the global cooldowns between these haste values?

21% haste: 1.5 / (1 + .21) = 1.2397 seconds

17% haste: 1.5 / (1 + .17) = 1.2821 seconds

This is a net difference of 0.0424 seconds, or 42 milliseconds. The average human has a reaction time between 120ms and 370ms. A really good player who is paying attention has a reaction time of around 100ms. So the time differential on global cooldowns between 17% and 21% haste is at best a third of your physically possible reaction time.

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on the importance of 21% haste given these numbers. Yes, you will feel it if you go as low as 10% haste. That's a 120 millisecond difference. But honestly, who only has 2% haste on their gear? You can't not get it.

To summarize:

#1) While more haste is still better, you can't really tell the difference between 21% and 17%. Therefore there is no artificial haste threshold where healing will magically get much better.

#2) It doesn't make sense to argue that people should stack haste for a meager increase in throughput while simultaneously arguing they should stack int for longevity. Either argue for stacking haste and spell power for throughput, or stack spell power and int/spirit for longevity.

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<snip>

which is in line with my estimate of 60k total mana in a 5 minute. <snip>

So what's the major discrepancy?

My back-of-the-envelope numbers show ~ 100k mana over a 5 minute period. That's almost twice as much as you show. That's a discrepancy.

Initial mana pool: 23k

Fiend: 11k

Tide: 8k

Potion: 4k

Spirit-and-buff-based-regen (including HC): 36k [avg of 600 Mp5 assumed]

Replenishment: 17.2k

Procs: 2k (cloak enchant, metagem, trinkets)

= 101.2k mana

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My back-of-the-envelope numbers show ~ 100k mana over a 5 minute period. That's almost twice as much as you show. That's a discrepancy.

Initial mana pool: 23k

Fiend: 11k

Tide: 8k

Potion: 4k

Spirit-and-buff-based-regen (including HC): 36k [avg of 600 Mp5 assumed]

Replenishment: 17.2k

Procs: 2k (cloak enchant, metagem, trinkets)

= 101.2k mana

I think I forgot Blessing of Wisdom / Mana Stream totem, which explains why you are getting larger mana numbers. The 17.2k number for replenishment seems very high to me. What WWS did you use for the data? Despite having two to three sources of replenishment per raid, I rarely get that much mana back. Perhaps it's just because Replenishment picks the lowest raid members on mana and that's rarely me. I suppose if I blew more mana early, then I'd get better replenishment returns, but that would be at the expense of mana to other raid members.

I'll note that the merged spirit-and-buff-based-regen total of 36k is not useful for this analysis. Part of that number is from spirit (which scales with int) and part of that is from m/5 (which doesn't scale). If we want to analyze the impact of getting more intellect, we only need look at the sources that scale. That's the base pool, fiend, replenishment, optional tide, and spirit. Everything else just adds confusion.

By the way, I think one reason you might be running low on mana and I'm not is your talent spec. You don't have any points in Test of Faith. Point for point, it's roughly as good as Spiritual Healing. You're down roughly 6% healing from that alone. Mana is great, but it's only as good as the spells you can buy. Making your heals 12% better when healing is needed most seems like a no-brainer, and I can see how lacking it would lead to a situation where you have to cast more heals (and thus spend more mana).

The second point in Surge of Light also helps mana more than you'd think, partially from free heals and partially from better OO5SR spirit regen.

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You could argue for Replenishment being less than what I've listed, which is "always below 100% mana". Most fights where I'm holy, I run between 80 and 85% of theoretical max return on Replenishment, so drop that number by as much as 3.4k.

For example:

XT (6:16 fight), 17.1k mana from replenishment, mana pool of 22,000. Max is 20.7k; 83%.

Kolo (3:59 fight) 11k from replenishment, mana pool of 22,800. Max is 13.7k; 80%.

Hodir (4:18 fight) 13.5k from replenishment, mana pool of 22,800. Max is 14.7k; 92%.

We tend to run 3 replenishment sources in a raid, so the buff *very* rarely falls off. Ticks might be lost due to being at full mana, or weird refresh bugs, but it's valid (at least for Fusion) to say 85% return on theoretical max for Replenishment.

I'm not running low on mana due to lack of having Test of Faith. It's not a matter of having to cast one more heal to top someone up the final 10%. It's more proactive healing; if everyone is topped up, queue up a heal on a tank, or toss off a PW:S. Refresh a Renew on a tank. Put PoM back up.

It's not that I'm starved for mana, and desperately need regen. It's that I find the ability to be proactive far more useful in a raid setting than a little more throughput. I agree that Test of Faith is a great talent, and I may eventually pick it up. For now, being able to watch the raid and haste people out of <ground effect #1516> is more useful.

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Basically as a Holy priest, you can pick 2 of these 3 categories:

Renew Talents: Improved Renew, Empowered Renew, Holy Concentration

Greater Heal Talents: Improved Healing, Empowered Healing

Utility Talents: Healing Prayers, Body and Soul, Blessed Resilience, Lightwell

By the way, the research posted in another thread showed that if you don't have and cast Empowered Renew, your Holy Concentration uptime will be around 20%, making it terrible. With Empowered Renew it's around to 40%. That's why I list Holy Concentration as a Renew talent.

Again, expect roughly 20% uptime without Empowered Renew, roughly 40% with it. Obviously it will go up as you cast more Greater Heals though. (HC uptime)

For the record, I think all we ever want is throughput. I've never been mana starved in Ulduar, even without the Healing Prayers talent (which I now have). Plus a spell power flask increases our mana efficiency. I mean, think about it. Compare [item]Flask of Distilled Wisdom[/item] to [item]Flask of the Frost Wyrm[/item]. That's 65 int versus 125 spell power. Would you ever socket a [item]Brilliant Golden Draenite[/item] instead of a [item]Runed Crimson Spinel[/item] in your gear? Because that's roughly the int to spell power trade-off you are talking about.

On the subject of [item]Flask of Pure Mojo[/item], would you ever socket a [item]Lustrous Sky Sapphire[/item] over a [item]Runed Scarlet Ruby[/item]? That's obviously a horrible idea. Both Distilled Wisdom and Mojo are flat out inferior to Frost Wyrm. The only flask we should use is Frost Wyrm.

Wow, long post you had there; I'll try to keep this short.

As a holy priest you can pick any of the talents you want; you don't have to stick to anything specific or any categories. Choose talents that are best suited for your playstyle. Our two holy priests (myself and Cahrin), though currently spec'd the same have slightly different playstyles (he renews far less, almost nothing, compared to my minimal amount of renews).

How can you expect a 20% increase in HC uptime by getting empowered renew if you rarely renew? Wouldn't your HC uptime be the same if instead of renews you just cast flash heals?

As far as comparing flasks and food buffs and what not, it is kind of silly as I currently use flasks pending on the encounter and the available mana tides or innervates available.

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I have not seen much of Ulduar so I cannot tell wether I will go oom much or seldom. But my Mana got to neer 0 more than once. We were there with 5-7 Healers. And I went low in Mana with 5 Healers and with 7 Healers. Maybe that should not be the case if our server would be more stabel (we have lags of about 2s all the time).

Anyway even if I would not have such problemsm your argument that many holy priests end up with some mana is not valid. Ulduar is about burst-dmg followed by low dmg. So the best thing a healer can do is burst heal followed by less heal. Priests, especialy holy priests, can burst huge chunks of heals for a high mana cost. So they can go low in such a burst phase, even if they will end the fight with much more mana because they could regen afterwards.

In BC you could use SP as a form of Regen-Stat since you had a big arsenal of different sizes of the same heal. Now it is much more binary. So you either have the mana for the biggest one or you dont. If you dont have the mana (or cannot sustain the mana for that heal over the whole encounter) you have to switch to something else. The difference between 2 spells is much higher in throughput than some more or less SP.

As for your argument that if someone heals for 300 (or something) more the char healed will live longer (what you wrote to counter the haste-argument): There are two szenarios that could end in a better survivability: less heals to top him up or more hits until the char dies.

300 (or whatever) Life will seldom make the difference in heals you need to top one up. And if it would make a difference you simply would not use another heal for it while raid-healing (maybe a chainheal or a PoM would jump there but If the char would have been at full life the jump would not have done much more, since it jumps to the char with lowest health in range).

So it has to be the other way round. Does 300 (or whatever) more life help to survive more hits? At the moment I cannot think about anything ticking for less than 2k so while there will be the possibility that 300 life may be all you need to survive another hit the chances are very low. Your heals have to make much more of a difference in size to enable the char to survive another hit.

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As a holy priest you can pick any of the talents you want; you don't have to stick to anything specific or any categories. Choose talents that are best suited for your playstyle. Our two holy priests (myself and Cahrin), though currently spec'd the same have slightly different playstyles (he renews far less, almost nothing, compared to my minimal amount of renews).

How can you expect a 20% increase in HC uptime by getting empowered renew if you rarely renew? Wouldn't your HC uptime be the same if instead of renews you just cast flash heals?

Here's the key phrase from the post, emphasis mine:

By the way, the research posted in another thread showed that if you don't have and cast Empowered Renew, your Holy Concentration uptime will be around 20%

Regarding talents, I strongly disagree that you can pick of "any of the talents you want". Just like all other classes, we have talents that are good for raiding and talents that are bad. Just like you wouldn't expect a rogue to pick up "whatever" and deal the same raid damage, a holy priest cannot just take "whatever" and be similarly effective. Yes, there is some room for tailoring talents around particular play styles, and each of those play styles can be optimal for a certain fight. But the number of flexible talent points we have is not that great. It's roughly 10, and there aren't many options to choose from.

I'm not running low on mana due to lack of having Test of Faith. It's not a matter of having to cast one more heal to top someone up the final 10%. It's more proactive healing; if everyone is topped up, queue up a heal on a tank, or toss off a PW:S. Refresh a Renew on a tank. Put PoM back up.

It's not that I'm starved for mana, and desperately need regen. It's that I find the ability to be proactive far more useful in a raid setting than a little more throughput. I agree that Test of Faith is a great talent, and I may eventually pick it up. For now, being able to watch the raid and haste people out of <ground effect #1516> is more useful.

Well I'm not suggesting you cut Body and Soul for it. Rather, I think you should cut 3 points in Empowered Healing.

And if proactive healing is the only reason you are running so low on mana that you're taking 65 intellect over 125 spell power, wouldn't it be better to let other classes do that proactive healing? Proactive healing only matters when the whole raid is at full health, so surely the other healers can give you a spirit regen break.

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Can you please give an argument why 125 SP should be better than 65 Int?

So healing for some more only will result in more overheal.

But then I would try to go for haste or crit not pure SP.

Think of a gem slot, now think of pure stats, 19 SP = 16 Intellect, so naturally on that base 125 SP is better on stats alone.

How can you suggest more SP ALWAYS leads to more OH? Consider Ignis where most of your POHs/CoHs are hitting and doing their job, how is +100 (says 80% coefficient) going to waste? In fact, you are actually saving yourself and other healers a cast or 2 in the long run (definately arguable since sunwell anyway when mana limitations basically got removed).

I agree, my toon is current in all haste gems as i try to find a limit between oom and best hps (550 haste rating as of last night). Personally, I get an innervate every fight so i can afford such a luxery. With so much haste now, SP becomes even more valuable as i'm pushing more out. Until I literally run 100% oom haste/SP consumables are better than Int/regen based. No point in having 30% mana when as boss dies.

EDIT: Spelling.

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