Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TheDoctor

Discipline Healing Compendium v3.1

567 posts in this topic

I believe he meant he was using PI for the Mana Cost reduction, not for the haste.

Correct. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I rarely ever go OOM on encounters; I'm using PI on myself for mana reduction purposes.

Well the larger issue is that with proper gearing and SF / HoH / pot usage you should be able to avoid oom in almost every encounter without PI. It's best use would then be on a DPS since you don't *need* it.

Normally that works fine, but due to the timing of Infest, I didn't really have time to channel HoH, etc.

As the raid gets better at not taking extra damage, I'm hoping it'll become easier. In the meantime, I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PI works fine for shielding, it saves you some Mana. Next time i will try this exotic Shadow Fiend spec: click

This should help me a ton more than the 8% crit with spells i rarly use in this encounter. It does reduce the value of the PW:Shield Glyph, true, but won't have to rely on abusing rapture.

Especially during p2 when people get oor often it messes with my timing for the proc. Plus i can shield the tanks without thinking twice when the MT healer gets carried away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am having some very simple issues with:

Power Word Shield

and

Divine Aegis

I know there are math threads and post on how this all work, at least for PWS. But I can say without a doubt my Shields vary a ton for absorption in the logs. Is there a reliable formula that I can count on for my shield strength? Logs say that at times my shields are covering 10K+ and well that seems a bit high, with an average of 3k being covered, which seems a bit low.

PWS cannot have a crit effect from everything I have read for the value it mitigates.

I am running 3200SP self buffed.

DA is another sore spot for me. Clearly there is a stated amount that will be produced off any crit heal I toss out. Is there some invisible cap? I have ask because I have seen my Greater Heals tag a target for 17k+ and then the logs say the largest DA I proc'd is 2.5k for that fight. Just doing the simply math that DA should have been 7.2k. Are their any coefficients for DA like SP or talents as well buffing it up further or is it a simple effect that seems to be malfunctioning?

Or is DA simply the amount actually healed vs the total amount it could heal?

This still does not explain the PWS issues, of the average PWS for me is 3k with a range up to 9k. That just confused the hell out of me.

Can some one give me some insight on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you are seeing are the actual absorbs effect "per attack", and not per shield.

I.e, most of your shields absorbs several attacks of 3k, and therefore you see lots of ~3k absorbtion, and some absorbs only partially a big hit, for about 10k.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the 4PC:

Since the 4pc is actually useful now, I finally got my last piece of tier gear last night. How many stats are worth sacrificing to maintain the 4 pc? Right now, I'd have to use 2 251 pcs and drop the badge gloves and badge chest/pants in order to use them. That's a pretty heavy loss to haste and crit.

My rough head math shows that I do 50-60% of my healing from PW:S so the bonus is a 2.5%+ increase in healing roughly. That surely has to outweigh 100 or so haste, and some crit correct?

Just looking for some clarification or if someone has already done the actual math.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the 4PC:

Since the 4pc is actually useful now, I finally got my last piece of tier gear last night. How many stats are worth sacrificing to maintain the 4 pc? Right now, I'd have to use 2 251 pcs and drop the badge gloves and badge chest/pants in order to use them. That's a pretty heavy loss to haste and crit.

My rough head math shows that I do 50-60% of my healing from PW:S so the bonus is a 2.5%+ increase in healing roughly. That surely has to outweigh 100 or so haste, and some crit correct?

Just looking for some clarification or if someone has already done the actual math.

Unless you're dropping below the soft cap for haste, I wouldn't worry about losing haste. As for crit, I really don't believe this is something you can consider. Yes, it affects your overall healing, but crit is always unreliable healing. Spell selection should always be based on the assumption that the spell won't crit, apart from the fact that I doubt that you will lose a very significant amount of crit from 2 items. So yes, I'd wear the 4set, even if you have to use 251 items for a while. I would be more worried about the spellpower loss, but that's something you'll have to contend with, or do the math for on a per fight basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone noticed a significantly larger amount of Val'anyr absorptions since the latest patch? Its more than the 5% zone buff would account for. I'm wondering if an absorption on Power Word: Shield will now create a Val'anyr shield. I'm having trouble finding the log for last night's raid, but when I looked at it, Val'anyr was between 8% and 10% of my effective healing as measured by World of Logs. (Skada credited it much higher, though I suspect its estimates are incorrect.) For contrast, here's a log from several weeks ago that shows 2% effective healing from Val'anyr:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Looking over this log, it breaks down as:

Actual Heals: 28.7%

Power Word: Shield: 63.5%

Protection of Ancient Kings: 2.1%

Divine Aegis: 5.8%

And clearly the shield effects do not trigger Protection of Ancient Kings. But imagine if actual heals AND power word: shield could both stack Val'anyr shields. What relative percentages should we expect?

The new protection amount should equal 2.1% * (63.5 + 28.7) / 28.7 of the old 100% healing, assuming a linear scaling in effective healing. (Not quite true but good enough for estimates.)

2.1 * (63.5 + 28.7) / 28.7 = 7.18%

So that would be a 5% increase in healing. The actual value you'd see on a log would be 100%/105% of 7.18% = 6.8%

Interestingly that's still a bit low, so perhaps Divine Aegis also counts now. Prepatch on Heroic Saurfang, Val'anyr was 5% of my healing and actual heals were 40% of my healing. This week Val'anyr was 10% of my total effective healing.

At any rate, this is all circumstantial evidence, but it does seem like Power Word: Shield now affects Val'anyr, and perhaps Divine Aegis does as well. Has anyone done explicit testing on these abilities? If not, we should probably do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As already written in another thread a few days ago, the first thing that needs to be determined is if worldoflogs gives trustworthy data on the Valanyr proc. I also (specced holy) get way to big numbers which exceed 5% of my TOTAL healing by quite a bit. Like me, your raid also had more than one person using Valanyr. Some say, that this the problem. Maybe test again in 10 man when you're the only legendary user.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a 10 man log from yesterday. Server lagged and shut down after an hour so it's not much, but for the 3 Marrowgar fights my healing is:

  • 24,8% Power Word: Shield
  • 23,9% Divine Aegis
  • 9,6% Protection of the Ancient Kings
  • 41,7% Actual Healing

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

That's some very high numbers for Divine Aegis and Val'anyr. So I compare it with our log from last week:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Marrowgar Kill Absolute Healing:

[TABLE=head]Spell|Last week|This week

Power Word: Shield|935622|621209

Divine Aegis|275008|500018

Protection of the Ancient Kings|26984|193897

Overall Absorb|1237614|1315124

Actual Healing|844419|725032

Overall|2082033|2040156[/TABLE]

So my Overall Absorb was \frac{1315124}{1237614}-1=6,26\% higher than last week. Taking the 30 seconds shorter fight time (and RNG) into consideration, it should be approximately the 10,25% buff we gained for shield.

I think that World of Logs doesn't account the absorb amounts to the correct spell. Perhaps Blizzard changed some behaviour, so that PW:S is now absorbed before DA (and the same way Val'anyr), but WoL accounts it to DA because it is buffed after PW:S when it procs on the glyph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no way to determine what effect produced an absorb from combat logs. Damage events report the amount of damage dealt, resisted, and absorbed, but there is no attribution for the absorb effect. WoL uses a heuristic to attribute absorbs to the most recently applied effect that is known to be capable of absorbing damage. When you have few possible sources of absorb in the raid, or the targets of absorb effects do not overlap, this heuristic is reasonably correct. The more sources of absorb in the raid overlapping on the same target, the less accurate it will be.

In Ulduar when you had a Disc priest and maybe a couple of Paladins using Sacred Shield, WoL measured absorbs fairly reliably. Today's raid with a couple of Val'Anyr wielders thrown into the mix forces you to take the reported numbers with a grain of salt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I noticed a pretty large skew between the Skada and World of Logs estimations, but Skada was the one crediting me with a ton of absorbs and WoL with not very many. Skada had me at like 30% more than the average healer. But yes, I understand these are just estimates.

Our guild has four Val'anyrs so even our 10 man has two of them. But I think we could orchestrate an actual test rather than relying on combat log parses from raids. First find out how much damage a Power Word: Shield prevents. Heal yourself until Val'Anyr procs and then shield yourself. Click off Divine Aegis (if it's up for some reason) and get hit by someone, presumably in a duel. Count the total damage absorbed and see if it's more than the shield. And also check if you see the Protection of Ancient Kings buff on you.

If Val'anyr now procs off shields, variants of this test would let us determine whether it's the application or absorption of Power Word: Shield that triggers the Val'anyr shield. And you could test Divine Aegis in a similar manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no way to determine what effect produced an absorb from combat logs. Damage events report the amount of damage dealt, resisted, and absorbed, but there is no attribution for the absorb effect. WoL uses a heuristic to attribute absorbs to the most recently applied effect that is known to be capable of absorbing damage. When you have few possible sources of absorb in the raid, or the targets of absorb effects do not overlap, this heuristic is reasonably correct. The more sources of absorb in the raid overlapping on the same target, the less accurate it will be.

In Ulduar when you had a Disc priest and maybe a couple of Paladins using Sacred Shield, WoL measured absorbs fairly reliably. Today's raid with a couple of Val'Anyr wielders thrown into the mix forces you to take the reported numbers with a grain of salt.

It's not that we have this problem since Icecrown, it's since the release of 3.3.3, so it has nothing to do with the amount of shields on the targets - this one stayed the same. Since 3.3.3 came live, WoL shows some weird numbers for our absorb effects an we try to figure out why. As my logs show, Divine Aegis and Protection of the Ancient Kings increased, while Power Word: Shield decreased accordingly. So the only two reasons I can think of are:

  • WoL changed their code
  • Blizzard changed the order shields are consumed

I'm just about to test the second one. Here are some extractions from my combatlog:

1. Protection of the Ancient Kings vs. Power Word: Shield

[TABLE]15:12:29> Glyphe 'Machtwort: Schild' von Abraham heilt Abraham um 0.(852 Ãœberheilung)|Power Word: Shield Glyph heals (852)

15:12:29> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Machtwort: Schild.|I gain Power Word: Shield

15:12:29> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Schutz der Uralten Könige.|I gain Protection of the Ancient Kings

15:12:32> Abraham trifft Übungsattrappe des Experten mit Schattenwort: Tod für 1 Schattenschaden.(1395 Schaden über Tod)|Shadow Word: Death hits target (1395)

15:12:33> Das auf Abraham wirkende Schutz der Uralten Könige von Abraham schwindet.|Protection of the Ancient Kings fades

15:12:33> Schattenwort: Tod wurde durch Abraham absorbiert.(1354 absorbiert)|Shadow Word: Death is absorbed (1354)[/TABLE]

2. Divine Aegis vs. Power Word: Shield

[TABLE]15:18:46> Sühne von Abraham heilt Abraham um 4583.(1258 Überheilung) (Kritisch)|Penance heals me critical (5841)

15:18:46> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Göttliche Aegis.|I gain Divine Aegis

15:18:48> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Machtwort: Schild.|I gain Power Word: Shield

15:18:50> Abraham trifft Übungsattrappe des Experten mit Schattenwort: Tod für 1 Schattenschaden.(2575 Schaden über Tod)|Shadow Word: Death hits target (2576)

15:18:51> Das auf Abraham wirkende Göttliche Aegis von Abraham schwindet.|Divine Aegis fades

15:18:51> Schattenwort: Tod wurde durch Abraham absorbiert.(2498 absorbiert)|Shadow Word: Death is absorbed (2498)[/TABLE]

3. Protection of the Ancient Kings vs. Divine Aegis

[TABLE]15:21:59> Sühne von Abraham heilt Abraham um 0.(4184 Überheilung)|Penance heals me (4184)

15:22:00> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Schutz der Uralten Könige.|I gain Protection of the Ancient Kings

15:22:00> Sühne von Abraham heilt Abraham um 0.(6088 Überheilung) (Kritisch)|Penance heals me critical (6088)

15:22:00> Abraham gewinnt Abraham Göttliche Aegis.|I gain Divine Aegis

15:22:01> Abraham trifft Übungsattrappe des Experten mit Schattenwort: Tod für 1 Schattenschaden.(2469 Schaden über Tod)|Shadow Word: Death hits target (2470)

15:22:02> Das auf Abraham wirkende Schutz der Uralten Könige von Abraham schwindet.|Protection of the Ancient Kings fades

15:22:02> Schattenwort: Tod wurde durch Abraham absorbiert.(2470 absorbiert)|Shadow Word: Death is absorbed (2470)[/TABLE]

That shows that the order shields are consumed is still Protection of the Ancient Kings > Divine Aegis > Power Word: Shield, so it has to be an World of Logs error.

@tedv: I deleted my Power Word: Shield glyph and shielded me while Val'anyr proc was active, but Protection didn't proc. Is also used PWS 25 times (with 31.20% crit) and had no Divine Aegis procs, so these two still don't proc from Power Word: Shield alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 Piece Bonus: "Increases the effect of Power Word: Shield by 5% and Circle of Healing by 10%."

Glyph of PW:S: "Your Power Word: Shield also heals the target for 20% of the absorption amount."

As the absorption amount is increased by 5%, shouldn't the healing produced by the Glyph be increased as well?

In my tests, the glyph's healing amount is not considering the 4 piece bonus.. I think it's a bug. Have you guys done some tests regarding this matter?

Here are my test results, with self buffs and Flask of the Frost Wyrm, outside icc, casting PW:S every 15 seconds on myself:

Not using the 4 Piece Bonus

My Spell Power: 3669

My Glyph hit: 1662

My Glyph crit: 2493

Using the 4 Piece Bonus

My Spell Power: 3601 (-1.85%)

My Glyph hit: 1641 (-1.26%)

My Glyph crit: 2462(-1.24%)

The -1.26% difference is ok considering the reduced spell power. But shouldn't it be then increased by 5%, as the glyph is always 20% of the absorption amount, and the absorption amount has been increased by 5%? I expeced a value of 1723 instead of 1641.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

That shows that the order shields are consumed is still Protection of the Ancient Kings > Divine Aegis > Power Word: Shield, so it has to be an World of Logs error.

@tedv: I deleted my Power Word: Shield glyph and shielded me while Val'anyr proc was active, but Protection didn't proc. Is also used PWS 25 times (with 31.20% crit) and had no Divine Aegis procs, so these two still don't proc from Power Word: Shield alone.

The order in which the shields are consumed depends on the remaining amount they can absorb. Smaller shields are consumed before greater shields. Normally PW:Shield is bigger then Aegis so most times its consumed last. But if you stack Aegis to 10k then shield yourself and then let yourself hit by something big (but not that big that it consumes both at the same time) you can see that PW:Shield is consumed before the Aegis. Here is my according combatlog:


<stacking aegis>

3/27 20:10:46.682  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,...,"Julith",...,"Göttliche Aegis",

3/27 20:10:46.887  SPELL_HEAL,...,"Julith",...,"Glyphe 'Machtwort: Schild'",0x2,1178,1178,0,nil

3/27 20:10:46.949  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,...,"Julith",...,"Machtwort: Schild",

...

3/27 20:10:50.930  SWING_MISSED,...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",...,"Julith",...,ABSORB,6928

3/27 20:10:51.136  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,...,"Julith",...,"Machtwort: Schild",...

3/27 20:10:51.699  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,...,"Julith",...,"Schattenwort: Tod",...

3/27 20:10:51.704  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,...,"Julith",...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",...,"Schattenwort: Tod",0x20

3/27 20:10:51.704  SPELL_ENERGIZE,...,"Julith",...,"Euphorie",0x2,544,0

3/27 20:10:52.125  SPELL_DAMAGE,...,"Julith",...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",...,"Schattenwort: Tod",0x20,1905,...

3/27 20:10:52.360  SPELL_ENERGIZE,...,"Julith",...,"Euphorie",0x2,679,0

3/27 20:10:52.583  SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,...,"Julith",...,"Schattenwort: Tod",0x20,ABSORB,1847

3/27 20:10:52.991  SWING_MISSED,...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",...,"Julith",0x511,ABSORB,6833

3/27 20:10:53.246  SWING_DAMAGE,...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",...,"Julith",0x511,6850,0,1,0,0,604,nil,nil,nil

3/27 20:10:53.325  SWING_DAMAGE,...,"Julith",...,"Wachmann der Seelenwache",0x10a48,16,0,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

3/27 20:10:53.578  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,...,"Julith",...,"Göttliche Aegis",0x2,BUFF

It is that way since a while now. I'm not sure when I tested and encountered this the first time but it was at least 3 months ago.

I can't test if the same holds for the hammer-bubble because I don't have the Valanyr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that the Glyph of Power Word: Shield now properly procs Divine Aegis. Actually, the patch notes say: Glyph of Power Word: Shield: The heal produced from this glyph is now more correctly treated as a heal for purposes of procing effects that are caused by heals, such as Divine Aegis and the weapon Trauma.

This, I believe is the reason for all the funky WOL absorb totals. If I remember correctly, because Blizzard has no method of truely tracking who or what did the absorb, WOL gives credit to the last absorption effect cast. This used to be fairly close. But now Divine Aegis is proccing after the shield, hence its getting the credit for a lot of absorbs that it probably shouldn't be. The Hammer did not used work off PW: Shield heals, and now it does. This could then be the last absorb effect and now be getting credit for the PW: Shield absorbs like Divine Aegis is. Something to test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Combat Log Absorbs

Afaik the only official statement on combat logs assigning absorbs was from the Priest Q and A:

Q: Are there plans to ensure absorption mechanics are properly displayed and stored in the combat log in the near future?

Ghostcrawler: Technically, we can’t attribute absorption to the caster correctly. We know who cast the spell, but we can’t display easily which of the absorptions counts when there are multiple absorptions on a target. The change we made for 3.2 was to show how much damage was left on each absorption effect before and after the damage was done. This should allow third-party addons to figure out which absorb effect goes with which caster and properly credit them for it. The answer, I suspect they will find, is that shields actually prevent a lot of damage. We have seen priests prevent as much damage as they healed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there are math threads and post on how this all work, at least for PWS. But I can say without a doubt my Shields vary a ton for absorption in the logs. Is there a reliable formula that I can count on for my shield strength? Logs say that at times my shields are covering 10K+ and well that seems a bit high, with an average of 3k being covered, which seems a bit low.

...

DA is another sore spot for me. Clearly there is a stated amount that will be produced off any crit heal I toss out. Is there some invisible cap? I have ask because I have seen my Greater Heals tag a target for 17k+ and then the logs say the largest DA I proc'd is 2.5k for that fight. Just doing the simply math that DA should have been 7.2k. Are their any coefficients for DA like SP or talents as well buffing it up further or is it a simple effect that seems to be malfunctioning?

Can some one give me some insight on this?

For PWS, you can do the math yourself or download DrDamage to get a half-decent look at what your PWS should be capable of absorbing. Absorb counts have been much improved, but it is still possible for parsers to be confused between PWS absorbs and other absorbs.

DA has a cap at 10,000 HP. So if you have past shields on the target and get a 20k crit heal, the difference between current DA strength and 10000 will cap your shield.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.