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Praetorian

Twin Emperors Down

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Just out of curiosity, would you mine posting your spec? I'm assuming that you fare very well in PvE damage output. :)

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What I am now(16/25/10):

http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?i0eMoxZGci00EZV0x

What I should be:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?f0ecoxZGci00AzZV0x

When I initially specced into combat dagger, I did the 17/24/10 thing. Then I did the math and realized there was a gap in the cycle where I was generating some SnD time that wasn't getting used. So I specced to full dagger spec and 2/3 Imp SnD and a) missed Blade Flurry terribly, and B) realized that the little extra time I was getting on SnD was patching a lot of holes where you get a DBP'd special. So yeah, it was stupid and I need to go back.

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Personally, I haven't felt any pressure with AQ to have "First kills" and I think that's how it should be. I could be wrong but, to me atleast, there is less of a rivalry with Aeternus and more a "Homey I'm witcha" attitude like Everlast. It's enabled me to HATE THE BLACK EYED PEAS and truly enjoy raid content.

You guys put in one hell of a long haul there on the emps that day though. If nothing else spending that much time in one place deserves credit! :] Good job.

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What I should be:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?f0ecoxZGci00AzZV0x

So I specced to full dagger spec and 2/3 Imp SnD and a) missed Blade Flurry terribly, and B) realized that the little extra time I was getting on SnD was patching a lot of holes where you get a DBP'd special. So yeah, it was stupid and I need to go back.

Giving up 2% crit seems like a pretty substantial loss. Why not go 5/5 Dagger Spec and 3/5 Imp Offhand? Dagger spec affects both hands, and it seems like that would be a stronger combination with PB offhanded (why do you have +5 on it vs crusader or agility?) to the new AQ dagger.

And yes, Blade Flurry is awesome. I scoff at rogue who don't think Combat Daggers works for PvP (although I play a hybrid version of the spec with Improved Ambush). You haven't PVPed as a rogue until you've laid down a ZHM'd BFed ambush vanish ambush on two clothies. It's atrociously situational of course, and the use of the skill breaking stealth is a pain, but when you can line it up it's great fun. Also from a PvP perspective the additional CP generation of Seal Fate does not really stack up with the improved chance to crit ambush/bs and not miss your first two autoattacks.

But I'm hijacking your victory thread and should probably be writing this in a PM to Wodin! Congratulations on the kills, and good luck on the remainder of the dungeon.

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Except he's using a Pugio/CTS combo not a PB :)

I thought he was just wearing the CTS to look pretty :(

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I thought he was just wearing the CTS to look pretty :(

If he ever not uses the CTS, I will stab him for having it drop on my raid :angry:

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Giving up 2% crit seems like a pretty substantial loss. Why not go 5/5 Dagger Spec and 3/5 Imp Offhand? Dagger spec affects both hands, and it seems like that would be a stronger combination with PB offhanded (why do you have +5 on it vs crusader or agility?) to the new AQ dagger.

And yes, Blade Flurry is awesome. I scoff at rogue who don't think Combat Daggers works for PvP (although I play a hybrid version of the spec with Improved Ambush). You haven't PVPed as a rogue until you've laid down a ZHM'd BFed ambush vanish ambush on two clothies. It's atrociously situational of course, and the use of the skill breaking stealth is a pain, but when you can line it up it's great fun. Also from a PvP perspective the additional CP generation of Seal Fate does not really stack up with the improved chance to crit ambush/bs and not miss your first two autoattacks.

Augh no. 2% crit is in no way better than 10% extra damage on the offhand weapon. DW Spec is probably the single best 5 talent points we can spend since it makes the gear we get scale even better.

As for getting the bonus out of dagger spec, it doesn't matter. It applies a flat aura to your character if you've got a dagger mainhanded. Easiest way to see this is record your ranged critrate before equipping a dagger, and then after. Bam, X% more crit, where X is your rank of dagger spec. I'm really unwilling to compromise my pve damage for pvp, which is why I had a rank11 mage (now 10 and falling fast since AQ is keeping us busy T_T ), and I can live with having a harder time in pvp.

As for +5, it's on the pugio because it's the second-best mainhand enchant for a dagger, and I don't want to burn the last two orbs I've got saved up till I get a C'thun weapon(which is admittedly a long ways off). The pugio only has 2 less average damage per hit than a Perditions despite being .1 faster, and I can live with giving up .6DPS on my backstabs in exchange for the 1hit/1crit/18AP. :)

Don't worry too much about hijacks. Threads wander at times, and it's an interesting discussion. :)

Edit: given that these days I'm usually just using a critstone on my offhand, I care much less about the speed of my offhand and more about the raw DPS it provides. CTS is awesome because it's got a nice spread of stats and high raw DPS, and provides the versatility to swap back and forth. I know I'm giving up some instant poison DPS, but again, it's a compromise I'll gladly make for the higher raw power in the offhand.

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words

Hey Wodin, why not spec 16/25/10 and just drop one point from Dagger Spec for Blade Flurry...? :huh:

Oh and a different answer to subscience's question on pvp with the spec - you're basically forced to open on everything with cheapshot. This isn't entirely a bad thing as it gives you a little more control over the start...and you don't have to get behind them, either.

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Without the max improved SnD, you end up dropping into regular mode for a couple of hits or having to pop SnD a little early if you get a backstab dodged, parried(gotta love that), or blocked(also gotta love that - Huhuran can fuck herself for having a small enough model that standing "behind" her triggers the exemption in the code that pretends backstab is coming from the front). However, unless you get a really unlucky string you don't have that problem with 3/3, and that's why I want it back - those little gaps are bad.

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Personally, I haven't felt any pressure with AQ to have "First kills" and I think that's how it should be. I could be wrong but, to me atleast, there is less of a rivalry with Aeternus and more a "Homey I'm witcha" attitude like Everlast.

Same deal on our server. After a few server firsts and then falling to server seconds, we don't feel any pressure to keep pace with other guilds. We've purposely been going into the encounters without reading others' strategies. I think it's more fun that way, and our success speaks more loudly about our teamwork.

Also healing in AQ40 is way more interesting and I love my class again. <3

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Wow. I had never bothered to test dagger spec's functionality, so that revelation is quite shocking to me, and sort of subdues all of my criticisms on offhanding CTS!

I did the math on SnD a while ago but it is good to hear your empirical tests confirming the usefulness of the full talent, as I have not yet been able to spec full PvE.

I would much rather PvP with a different class than my rogue, but since the majority of my playtime is spent on him, I'd like him to ride the Rank 11 mount (really the only reason I've pvped thus far, although I'm curious to see if the HWL weapons will be scaled with content). After I hit Rank11 I'm dropping improved ambush and 'stealing' your spec.

They ought to fix the mechanics behind dodge/parry, I've always been irritated when my backstabs are dodged or parried. Dodge/parry = in front only, backstab = behind only. Apparently rogues transcend the laws of combat.

In the interests of continuing the hijack / rogue discussion, I've been contemplating burning 50 gold and trying a 30/21 Seal Fate daggers build. The math is too cumbersome to work out, so I want to just respec for an MC clear and see how my damage output changes. It seems like it espouses everything a 'traditional' combat daggers build does (scaling-wise) but adds yet another element of scaling from Seal Fate, at the cost of a 40% reduction in backstab damage. Thoughts?

Oh, and what if any mod do you use for tracking combat data, Wodin? I hate Recap, and Damagemeters' events tracking seems off.

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^ Your avatar is mesmerizing.

And, very interesting Rogue discussion ahoy. :)

If only there really were unicorn mounts. I would give all my gold for one, easily.

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Event data I use Recap, sorry. :( The new combatstats that eliminated a bunch of information drives me up a wall, and I didn't want to hack the old one to work with 1.9.

Interestingly enough, there are some tests that are suggesting that it might not work the way I described - http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post927144

I'll have to do some more tests - it's possible they ninja-fixed it.

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Without the max improved SnD, you end up dropping into regular mode for a couple of hits or having to pop SnD a little early if you get a backstab dodged, parried(gotta love that), or blocked(also gotta love that - Huhuran can fuck herself for having a small enough model that standing "behind" her triggers the exemption in the code that pretends backstab is coming from the front). However, unless you get a really unlucky string you don't have that problem with 3/3, and that's why I want it back - those little gaps are bad.

Oh. So, with 3/3 Imp SnD what's the "ideal" rotation?

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If everything goes perfectly you can throw a 1pt rupture in after the Slice and Dice. Realistically, the last point gives you breathing room to have the boss dodge your attacks and/or let one more energy tick happen to get an extra combo point.

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As for +5, it's on the pugio because it's the second-best mainhand enchant for a dagger, and I don't want to burn the last two orbs I've got saved up till I get a C'thun weapon(which is admittedly a long ways off).

How do you figure crusader is better than the other MH enchants? I haven't had crusader on a dagger since I had a heartseeker.

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There was a big thread in the rogue forums running through the theory, but the nuts and bolts are that over a long fight, the 100AP from crusader will be active for a significant enough portion of the time to outdamage other enchants, due to the nature of the 100AP being magnified in both MH, OH, and special attacks.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post933318

is the thread involved, and the results were compiled into a spreadsheet by Kalman(who's one of the better mechanics guys out there).

http://www.radiationnow.net/wow/enchant.xls

You can look at the formulae he's using to calculate the values in the cells.

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If everything goes perfectly you can throw a 1pt rupture in after the Slice and Dice. Realistically, the last point gives you breathing room to have the boss dodge your attacks and/or let one more energy tick happen to get an extra combo point.

Two more questions, Wodin.

One - why would you spend 25 energy on Rupture at a 60% chance for the CP back and 20% chance of it being free? Would it not be better to preserve the energy and point for a rainy day, as it were, where you have multiple parries/dodges in a row, to keep the 30% IAS flowing? Perhaps I'm not arriving at the same ideal skill rotation as you are, or I'm missing something obvious about that Rupture, but a combo point and 25 energy seem like a bit of a waste to occupy a precious debuff slot and do some paltry damage.

Two - earlier in the thread you made reference to a DPBed special. I'm not familiar with that acronym - could you elaborate?

This thread deserves to be bumped over the other necromanced news item anyways!

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Oh, and that spreadsheet was sexy. Perhaps it's just me but there's a lot of satisfaction to be had from playing with formulae and numbers...

And as far as enchantments go, there's really no question that Crusader is the best enchant damagewise for combat rogues, even with conservative comparitive values between agility and AP. The healing from Crusader is also often ignored by rogues, which is odd considering the obsession people have with Stamina on PvE gear. On a long fight with periodic damage, Crusader's heal is fantastically useful - Golemagg, for example.

I think that Agility is superior for Seal Fate due to the heavy dependence on critical Eviscerates, however. But then, who uses Seal Fate anymore?

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earlier in the thread you made reference to a DPBed special. I'm not familiar with that acronym

D(odged) P(arried) B(locked)

Are the Twin Emps consistently buggy for horde, or does retrying the encounter give you a chance for a fair, bug-free fight?

Grats again guys - now alliance needs to catch up...

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I think that Agility is superior for Seal Fate due to the heavy dependence on critical Eviscerates, however. But then, who uses Seal Fate anymore?

First off, a crit evis still only gives one combo point, even with SF. The finisher istelf doesn't generate a combo point, and as such isn't affected by SF. The talent that gives the combo point isn't a strike, per se, and is likewise unaffected by SF. If Evis and KS could give 2 combo points, SF would be a better stunlocking build than heavy subtlety, as opposed to the fairly even tradeoffs that the 4 or 5 main rogue builds currently have.

As far as who uses SF anymore, rogues who want almost as much DPS as combat daggers, but more PvP and solo power use SF. B)

(BTW, 15 agi has a couple externalities that aren't reflected in Kalman's calculations, but even without them, it's very close to +5 base.)

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Two more questions, Wodin.

One - why would you spend 25 energy on Rupture at a 60% chance for the CP back and 20% chance of it being free? Would it not be better to preserve the energy and point for a rainy day, as it were, where you have multiple parries/dodges in a row, to keep the 30% IAS flowing? Perhaps I'm not arriving at the same ideal skill rotation as you are, or I'm missing something obvious about that Rupture, but a combo point and 25 energy seem like a bit of a waste to occupy a precious debuff slot and do some paltry damage.

Well, the nice part is that even if you spend the point on the rupture, you can still get back to 5 CP before the slice and dice expires with 3/3. But yeah, the main reason I'm going back to 3/3 is for the ability to keep SnD up constantly, and most of the time it will be used for precisely that "rainy day" preservation.

There's actually a very interesting thread that explains how to model a rotation that perfectly preserves slice and dice, but it was pruned. :(

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