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TheCrunkOne

DPS Warriors in BWL

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Well, I suspect tension is starting to build up among some of the warriors, who realize we dont tank/use defensive stance, in BWL enough to sometimes feel Defiance is actually worth it...for a guild that's LEARNING, BWL(on Firemaw now)

How many DPS warriors would it be worth it to take into there? Seems like, maybe 3 tanks with at least Defiance, and 3 DPS warriors would be the ideal(we always have a crapload of warriors there because we basically have shit for druids). And we're having pretty crappy luck weapon wise too, only Deathbringer and Maladath the guild has ever gotten has gone to the same warrior(he DualWields em :P) and we have had 0 Untameds, 0 Spinal Reapers, 0 Bonereavers, and 0 Eyes(everyone has an OEB or Zin'Rokh, heh, we're actually sharing OEBS now...). Even with what we've got, the warriors generally fill the top 10, with one mage, hunter, and rogue at the very top....

Just curious on EJ's position.

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Given a warrior pool of unspecified size, I think that ideally you want 15% of the to be protection, 25% of them to be Arms/Fury or Fury/Arms, and 50% of them to be 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 or some variant thereupon.

I'm a big fan of the 31/5/15 archetype for raiding. You can do good DPS and you can still get most of the best Prot talents. Giving up Enrage really isn't the end of the world.

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Given a warrior pool of unspecified size, I think that ideally you want 15% of the to be protection, 25% of them to be Arms/Fury or Fury/Arms, and 50% of them to be 31/5/15 or 31/4/16 or some variant thereupon.

I'm a big fan of the 31/5/15 archetype for raiding. You can do good DPS and you can still get most of the best Prot talents. Giving up Enrage really isn't the end of the world.

In terms of pure PvE Warrior talents, Fury seems to offer a very large increase to overall DPS in raids over Arms (as Aedak & co. will attest). Personally, all our Warriors were Arms and they'd consistantly rank very high on damage charts (heck, one Warrior with a goddamn Doomsaw would consistently destroy the damage charts in MC).

Of course, like you said, you'd want a mix of Protection / MS / and Fury Warriors to have a well rounded set of skills for your raid.

In my opinion, a Fury/15Prot build would work extremely well in terms of all-around utility as a PvE Warrior, especially given some of the Fury talents which not only benefit DDing, but also tanking.

Edit- Forgot to mention that I'm speaking specifically of 2H Fury builds.

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Yeah, Im the Arms Hybid right now(31/15/5), but i've been longing to return to Fury/Arms Spec(went all the way to 60 and spent some time in MC rockin a Thrash Blade and a Dire Nail with that build :( )

Our main tank is protection, and every other warrior except the guy with Deathbringer/Maladath(He's Fury/Arms) is Arms Hybrid(either Sword or Mace Spec since we have no Spinal Reapers :P)

And we generally end up with 7 warriors in BWL for that matter...

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We tend to have two who are heavy-ish prot, one-two 31-5-15, two-three DW Fury warriors and an MS warrior. I think.

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For BWL I would say you only really need one solid tank - full protection is obviously ideal, but 15-16 points in prot works perfectly fine.

More tank type warriors will make Broodlord and Vael go smoother, though, as well as the three wyrmguard trash pulls and time lapse Chromaggus.

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In my opinion, a Fury/15Prot build would work extremely well in terms of all-around utility as a PvE Warrior, especially given some of the Fury talents which not only benefit DDing, but also tanking.

Tactical Mastery.

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^ Well, I meant a Fury-heavy build. Not all points in Fury and Protection.

But as a PvE DD Warrior, would Tactical Mastery still be useful? Hm.

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I'd say in any given raid you'd want at most one or two warriors who DONT have mortal strike or bloodthirst.

Even in fights where warriors are tanking, most of them won't be tanking the entire time and it's advantageous to be able to have them deal significant damage when they're not being beat on.

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I'd argue that the absolute best tank for most BWL encounters is a Defiance - Imp HS - Flurry build, due to the amazing aggro generation. It does require good weapons to be effective. Those builds can deal acceptable damage when not tanking as well. You definitely want at least one, probably 2 MS warriors for Ebonroc. You might also want one or two heavy duty prot warriors.

If I was to create my 40-man "lets kill the whole game" raid party from scratch, it would include something like:

2 Defiance/Flurry warriors

2 MS warriors

1-2 Prot warriors

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Defiance isn't even close to required for any of the fights in the game, what benefit would a Fury/Prot build be to the raid?

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Better aggro generation allowing for more aggressive dps. In the learning phase, aggro is probably the main obstacle through almost every encounter in BWL. Meditation isn't required for any fight in the game either, but it does make endurance based fights easier. Tons of prot points isn't required for any fight in the game, but it does make high-output bosses easier. Having the full range of warrior specs available increases the versatility of the raid.

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During all the learning attempts I have experienced, the limiting factor has been keeping the tank and everyone else alive, not dps (with the exception of pre-deaggro nerf broodlord). In learning situations the raid is benefited more by a tanks that can stay alive than those that generate 5-10% more threat.

Sure people died after pulling aggro on Vael, Firemaw, etc., but once efficient strategies were worked out to counteract their deaggro abilities the aggro plateaus they presented stopped being a real issue.

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:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what learning attempts you experienced, but I can assure you that the primary issue on Vael, Firemaw (pre-nerf was even more fun), Ebonroc and Flamegor wasn't keeping the tank alive (once appropriate positioning was discovered). Broodlord was a bit of both.

I agree with Elerion that having a cross-section of specs increases the versatility of the raid. At this stage, BWL is a moot point but when learning a zone it's not really what you can do without but what you can do with the highest efficiency -- and I'm a firm believer in trying to build your raid group around this rather than "lol we can clear BWL with all our warriors speccing 31/20 learn2play".

Sure, we manage fine right now with the encounters in the game, but X% more threat means more DPS for the raid, shorter fights and a bit of headroom in case something goes wrong. Again not required, but certainly helpful.

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We tend to have two who are heavy-ish prot, one-two 31-5-15, two-three DW Fury warriors and an MS warrior. I think.

Yeah, that's about right. Maybe two MS warriors.

The answer to these questions (shadow priests/feral druids etc) is always the same - have a few of each.

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Comparing tank builds with various strengths to healer builds in which one is strictly superior is apples vs oranges.

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In terms of pure PvE Warrior talents, Fury seems to offer a very large increase to overall DPS in raids over Arms (as Aedak & co. will attest). Personally, all our Warriors were Arms and they'd consistantly rank very high on damage charts (heck, one Warrior with a goddamn Doomsaw would consistently destroy the damage charts in MC).

Windfury totem muddles that a bit - if you don't have access to windfury, fury is the king of single target DPS. with windfury they're about even, and if there are multiple targets and you have windfury down then arms is significantly better

fury would probably be best since it excels at single target DPS in any situation, except that many bosses like Ebonroc are made easier if you have access to mortal strike

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Yeah I wouldn't want less than 2 MS warriors on any given raid. For some fights (well mainly just ebonroc, lethon, and kazzak if you're being griefed), the debuff essentially makes an MS warrior "do more damage" than any other party member, and it's good to have two since warriors can't get to 100% hit rate like hunters can since their shit can be dodged.

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My warrior is 17/34/0 ;_; He just likes to hit things ok?

My warrior is 15/3/33 :socar:

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While the general opinion is Protection warriors are better for the raid's learning phase, I find it rather hard to believe. Is agro really that big of an issue to completely ruin your Warriors' time in WoW? The only encounter that makes me wish I had defiance is Onyxia. As our casters get better geared, it seems to be harder and harder to pull her in for phase 3. They are so used to me having agro on the transition that they just stand there like idiots when they have agro and get the entire side wiped out.

Agro is even less of an issue with the new AQ books. Last week on Broodlord, I held agro from 100 to 60%, lost it to another warrior until 50%, then picked agro back up at and ran with it until 20% when I died to the ol' MS/Blastwave/Crushing Blow combo (1 piece of Wrath ftl.) And that's with only the new rank of Revenge. Of course more tests need to be done, but when the warriors get the new revenge one week, then the next time they face the most agro-sensitive boss in the game and only use 2 tanks instead of the normal 5/6, that's good enough evidence for me.

I was protection spec for months and it put me into the infamous "holy priest depression" where I only logged on for raids. Grinding was pathetic and in PvP I was the guard-the-farm-bitch. I'm all for Blizzard buffing the Prot tree and giving Warriors an excuse to spec it again, but I just don't see the point in speccing protection at this time besides the viability of Conc blow on 1 (2?) fights in AQ.

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I don't think you are getting the point; if you don't find value in speccing a particular way, don't do it, if you'd rather have fun in PvP instead of putting points in protection -- go ahead and do that too. If you are focused on progression and getting the most out of your raid group you would be foolish not to have at least a couple of warriors (if not more) with defiance. That said, if you couldn't do your job competantly sans-defiance, it is probably reasonable to expect that those extra points won't do you any good either -- it's not make or break but like I mentioned previously, a helpful addition for the overall efficiency of the raid.

We don't force anyone to spec a particular way, so 'ruining your time in WoW' would be self-inflicted. People have different priorities and spec accordingly -- whether or not you think points in protection are necessary doesn't override the fact that it provides a benefit to both aggro generation and mitigation. Whether or not that benefit is worthwhile is up to the individual -- but I believe it's significantly useful to the raid group, particularly while trying to get through new content.

Talking about BWL months after it's been on farm status for most guilds and onyxia (:lol:) don't quite have the same effect as when guilds tackled BWL right out of MC. I quite enjoy these types of threads where members from said guilds come out and say that protection is worthless after having the encounters down for quite some time. I wonder if they were singing the same tune after wiping to Vael over and over when BWL opened. Threat generation isn't scaling in comparison to the boosts DPS classes (particularly casters) are enjoying, so there is something to be said about getting every little advantage you can.

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I am not a huge fan of defiance since I can hold aggro fine without it, but toughness is a huge boost to mitigation and last stand is often the difference between a kill and a wipe.

I like pvp and enrage was fun, but some fights in AQ would really suck without the 15 points in protection I have now.

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