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Soilantgreen64

Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died

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Since our rune weapons does 50% of our damage

This is incorrect and shouldn't be repeated any more-- not sure where it's coming from.

The bulk of DRW's damage is from its regular melee swings-- a DRW white attack will hit twice as hard as a DRW Heart Strike. That's why it's important to stack DRW with any available haste-- Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, etc. Similarly, Hysteria benefits DRW tremendously.

As Soilantgreen is pointing out, DRW is all about packing as many hard hitting attacks as possible into your 15 second window. While your DRW will put up full duration diseases and I believe its Heart Strikes will benefit from its own diseases (the issue pre-3.1 was that DRW's OB would remove DRW's diseases, even if you had Annihilation), the total damage of DRW's dots is pretty pitiful. I've tried both methods pretty extensively in raids, and maximizing HS + DS + DC during DRW seems to have the best results, particularly if you use Empower Rune Weapon to avoid wasting any GCDs while DRW is up.

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I never quite understood the 4 Death Rune rule when using DRW. By the time you have 4 Death Runes available, your disease durations are righr around 8 seconds (with 1/2 Epidemic). DRW eats a GCD so before you can start HS spam you're now down to 6.5 seconds. Your diseases will fall off (with 1/2 Epidemic) right around your third HS (if latency is on your side you can get it off right before diseases fade), leaving yourself with 3 diseaseless Heart Strikes (4 if you Blood Tap; more if you ERW).

Is it really more DPS in the long run to eat those 3+ diseaseless Heart Strikes? I also see 2/2 Epidemic only benefiting the 4x Death Rune situation-I personally don't run into too many situations where I need those extra 3 seconds to finish my rotations.

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I've also experiment with talent values using the Death Knight Simulator. For Blood Dps, Necrosis > Ravenous Dead > BCB > Morbity. The other thing I've know for a long time now is that 1 point in Impurity is better then DRW. After some quick work on the sim, turns out that the gylph of disease is the best gylph followed very closely by the Icy Touch Gylph then the Plague Strike Gylph. I need more input here on this matter but I'm seriously considering dropping DRW. I'm trying to figure out if burst value from DRW balances it out for some fights.

oh and that 44 / 0 / 27 spec is horrid.

There is something not quite right about how the sims calculate the bonus from Impurity. I brought it up in Kahorie's thread and he checked the calculations and couldn't find any issue. So I ran a 50/0/21 impurity build for 2 weeks. I couldn't find demonstrative proof that it was better so I switched back. I should have a 51/0/20 log on tuesday night to compare with my 50/0/21 run from last week.

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I have a question to put to you gentlemen.

I've personally been using Glyph of Death strike , Glyph of Dark Death and instead of the more standard Glyph of DRW I've been using the Glyph of Blood Strike, I know Its different, but I don't use DRW half as much as I probably should, as you know Glyph of Blood strike increases damage done by Heart Strike as well. But the question I'm putting to you Is whether you know If Snare effects have to actually be effective for it to work? For instance a mage's frost fire bolt has a snare effect as do many classes, so does simply having these debuffs up on a mob actually activate the glyph or do the effects need to be effective?

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as you know Glyph of Blood strike increases damage done by Heart Strike as well.

From the 3.1 patch notes:

Heart Strike: Bonus damage for diseases is now a multiplier rather than a flat bonus. No longer affected by [item]Glyph of Blood Strike[/item].

But to answer your question, anything that reduces movement speed and leaves a debuff will work with the glyph. Note that it's different from the mage talent where it can be attack speed reductions as well.

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Trinket Question: I currently use Greatness Deck and Mjolnir Runestone as my trinkets. I also have a Grim Toll. Would it be worth it to replace the Greatness Deck with Grim Toll to have 2 ArP proc trinkets?

My theory is that as long as they don't both proc at the same time its 20 seconds of 100% ArP with short downtime between the 2 internal cooldowns. I just don't know if it over powers the pure STR on the Greatness deck to run Grim in its place. Your thoughts and ideas gentlemen?

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Trinket Question: I currently use Greatness Deck and Mjolnir Runestone as my trinkets. I also have a Grim Toll. Would it be worth it to replace the Greatness Deck with Grim Toll to have 2 ArP proc trinkets?

My theory is that as long as they don't both proc at the same time its 20 seconds of 100% ArP with short downtime between the 2 internal cooldowns. I just don't know if it over powers the pure STR on the Greatness deck to run Grim in its place. Your thoughts and ideas gentlemen?

I wouldn't replace the Greatness with Grim toll, heads up the Greatness is a better trinket, and that's before you even take into consideration that double trinket procs would push you over the 100% ArP cap.

Plus your DPS spikes when Greatness and Runestone overlap will be awesome. As opposed to Runestone and Grim Toll overlapping which would just be sad.

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This is incorrect and shouldn't be repeated any more-- not sure where it's coming from.

The bulk of DRW's damage is from its regular melee swings-- a DRW white attack will hit twice as hard as a DRW Heart Strike. That's why it's important to stack DRW with any available haste-- Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, etc. Similarly, Hysteria benefits DRW tremendously.

As Soilantgreen is pointing out, DRW is all about packing as many hard hitting attacks as possible into your 15 second window. While your DRW will put up full duration diseases and I believe its Heart Strikes will benefit from its own diseases (the issue pre-3.1 was that DRW's OB would remove DRW's diseases, even if you had Annihilation), the total damage of DRW's dots is pretty pitiful. I've tried both methods pretty extensively in raids, and maximizing HS + DS + DC during DRW seems to have the best results, particularly if you use Empower Rune Weapon to avoid wasting any GCDs while DRW is up.

Well, as far I understood the DRW mechanic, it goes like this:

Once used, DRW will take a "snapshot" of your stats, and mimic you. For instance, if you had 6000 ap when you cast it and cast a heart strike later with 5000 ap, the DRW will cast a heart strike with power of 6000 ap. The damage that the said heart strike will cause will be half of what your heart strike will do with 6000 ap.

According to what you say (correct me if I'm wrong), the DRW heart strike will cause over 50% of your damage, while it's dots will cause less than 50%. This is probably incorrect, and I ignored any damage bonus that the DRW might recieve from dots being up, since I'm not entirely sure if it actually recieves them.

Regarding the dots being pitiful, please note that blood diseases ARE pitiful. On the other hand, a full run disease is not so pitiful, since it does 7 times it's ticks damage.

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The other major component regarding DRW is the fact that it functions off the same disease mechanics that you as the DK do. That is the primary reason for putting up the diseases first, that and it's free dps even after your DRW duration expires, the dots will still tick to their full duration. If you want to test this try it on a target dummy and review your combat log.

Just for curiosity's sake, does anyone have 4 pc yet and do we know if the 4 pc will affect DRW? I know our 4 pc, like many others, is total crap but it's better than nothing.

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Death Strike damage scales with [iTEM]43827[/iTEM]. Beginning a rotation with this is a dps loss due to the fact you have no runic power.

Starting your first rotation with Death Strike is no different than what we go through every second set of runes when we cast DS - HS - HS - HS - HS - dump. That Death Strike is after a dump and hence we have little runic power at the time to gain the full benefit from the Glyph of Death Strike. Having your opening rotation start with Death Strike won't be a major DPS impact in a boss fight where as getting that 10% AP bonus out to the rest of the raid could be. After all if you wait on your Death Strike until the end of your first rune set you lost out on 6 seconds (four global cooldowns) of the AP boost. The impact of this obviously varies based on raid composition. There really isn't a finite value to how much damage that 10% AP boost equates to over the 6 seconds in comparison to if you stuck with a normal rotation to open with.

Now if you have someone else in the raid providing that boost (ie. a Marksman Hunter), then stay with the normal rotations.

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Couple of questions (i'm new to blood so this is just in response to what i've read here so far)

First off, as far as rotations and DS concerns, i saw 2 rotations being discussed but what about a compromise between the 2

1. IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DUMP (diseases 1st, Abom last)

2. DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DUMP (Abom Might 1st, diseases 2nd)

3. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DUMP (compromise, diseases 1st, abom 2nd)

you still get your diseases 1st, have 20RP or so which gives you 20%+ to DS which is just 5% short of the max increase by the Glyph. Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking. In fact this means that your DS is delayed by only 1 second (GCD after PS) which i'm sure is acceptable

My other question is about DRW

Tooltip mentions the +1sec for every 10 RP, how is this calculated exactly. Does this mean that in order to maximize duration you have to use DRW when you have 100 RP (which basicaly means after 2 full rotations for the 4 death runes as well)? or can you just start it with 40RP and keep it up with newly generated RP?

I'm also a bit confused about the role Empowered Rune Weapon plays in DRW. Are we talking about burning it before DRW, or having it ready for DRW in order to maximize attacks during that period (which makes more sense to me)

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My other question is about DRW

Tooltip mentions the +1sec for every 10 RP, how is this calculated exactly. Does this mean that in order to maximize duration you have to use DRW when you have 100 RP (which basicaly means after 2 full rotations for the 4 death runes as well)? or can you just start it with 40RP and keep it up with newly generated RP?

I'm also a bit confused about the role Empowered Rune Weapon plays in DRW. Are we talking about burning it before DRW, or having it ready for DRW in order to maximize attacks during that period (which makes more sense to me)

The duration of DRW is only affected by the RP you have when it is spawned, it does not work like gargoyle. Your RP is spent when it is cast, and that determines how long it lasts

You would burn ERW after you cast DRW and have used all your available runes, so you are always striking with DRW up, DC'ing as a last resort.

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First off, as far as rotations and DS concerns, i saw 2 rotations being discussed but what about a compromise between the 2

1. IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DUMP (diseases 1st, Abom last)

2. DS-IT-PS-HS-HS-DUMP (Abom Might 1st, diseases 2nd)

3. IT-PS-DS-HS-HS-DUMP (compromise, diseases 1st, abom 2nd)

you still get your diseases 1st, have 20RP or so which gives you 20%+ to DS which is just 5% short of the max increase by the Glyph. Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking. In fact this means that your DS is delayed by only 1 second (GCD after PS) which i'm sure is acceptable

You can easily go into combat with 10 or so RP handy thanks to DnD, HoW, and Butchery (If you have 3/3 Morbidity, you can actually cap RP before a pull by casting DND and HoW on CD). You don't necessarily lose a full 26% damage from that first DS. So the gains from your compromise are either minimal or non-existent, and the losses are 1.5-3 seconds of buff time. Note that the buff also increases your disease damage.

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oh and that 44 / 0 / 27 spec is horrid.

What is horrid about the spec? The 44/0/27 is a solid spec. Although, I would move the points around a bit to look like this...

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec is capable of some very solid damage. One thing it had going to it prior to the T7 nerf was an additional Death Coil in your rotation. However, I would still imagine it to be a very viable spec even after the nerf.

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thanks Soilantgreen64 for clarifying DRW functionality.

and yes i momentarily forgot that the GCD is 1.5 secs which brings me to my next question - Haste

i've read quite a few threads here but have yet to get a definitive understanding of Haste on Death Knights

Does Haste Rating improve the cooldown of Runes (I have noticed that Heroism definitely speeds up said cooldowns)

or does it simply increase the number of white hits per minute?

Also although all runes are supposed to take 10secs to cooldown i've noticed that blood runes replenish quicker. Anyone know the exact timing?

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Also you can still start the fight early with a ranged IT instead of waiting to get to your target before attacking.

If disease damage is set only once when IT is cast, then this will be 10% loss on your frost fever for the duration of the first rotation. However if the dmg is determined from AP at the time of each tick, then the choice of starting with DS or ranged IT is pretty much personal preference. Has anyone tested this or know the mechanics?

For maxing AP buff, DS should take priority over PS on opening, however, since both are melee range.

It may also be useful to note that opening with a ranged IT before getting to melee range means the haste debuff from frost fever will be on the boss earlier at a time when you will not be able to use DS anyhow.

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What is horrid about the spec? The 44/0/27 is a solid spec. Although, I would move the points around a bit to look like this...

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This spec is capable of some very solid damage. One thing it had going to it prior to the T7 nerf was an additional Death Coil in your rotation. However, I would still imagine it to be a very viable spec even after the nerf.

The key point of picking up this build is to grab impurity and perma ghoul. Your revision skips impurity which kills the dps of this build even further. In additon putting the extra point into epidemic is unneeded. I also simmed the build and compared it to the typical blood build, ~1000 dps difference. The lost of 10% dmg and 10% apr is brutual.

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The key point of picking up this build is to grab impurity and perma ghoul. Your revision skips impurity which kills the dps of this build even further. In additon putting the extra point into epidemic is unneeded. I also simmed the build and compared it to the typical blood build, ~1000 dps difference. The lost of 10% dmg and 10% apr is brutual.

Impurity is a weak talent for that spec at 5 points. You get more value in putting the points into Dirge and Necrosis. The left over point goes into Epidemic for the extra disease DoT. The additional RP given by Dirge allows you to get more DC's in during the course of a fight...which outweighs the points in Impurity. While I understand that the loss of 10% damage bonus and 10% ArPen is a lot, you still pick up a lot of damage with those extra points in Unholy. I appreciate the value of the simulator, but there is absolutely no way there is a 1000 dps difference between the two specs.

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i've read quite a few threads here but have yet to get a definitive understanding of Haste on Death Knights

Does Haste Rating improve the cooldown of Runes (I have noticed that Heroism definitely speeds up said cooldowns)

or does it simply increase the number of white hits per minute?

Also although all runes are supposed to take 10secs to cooldown i've noticed that blood runes replenish quicker. Anyone know the exact timing?

Read this: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t36638-death_knight_pve_dps/#Runes:_How_They_Work

Haste does nothing for rune cooldowns, only IUP does. Haste will make you swing faster, and shorten the GCD on spells, such as IT and DC, but not for melee strikes like HS or DS.

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DRW will gain buffs you have before casting it, but will not get things used after, i.e. Hysteria, potions, etc.

Your DRW checklist looks something like this, in order of importance.

How certain are we about the truth of this statement? I just did a flurry of tests with different buffs to test their impact on DRW. My results all yeilded the same DRW damage no matter what buffs I had up before casting DRW. The buffs tested include: Hysteria, Blood Fury, Unholy Strength and Grim Toll. Has anyone else seen similar/conflicting results?

[e]: just retested Unholy Strength, it appears to add a marginal amount of damage to DRW.

[e^2]: Pyrite Infuser appears to be adding a considerable amount of DRW damage and I think I was wrong about Blood Fury.

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Hey guys, Im a massive fan of EJ and have used this site for a long time now. Im very happy with the way blood plays out at the moment as a 10 man raider.

However there's 1 thing that's bugging me, I have some 16 expertise gems in my gear and im still not at the expertise cap, i've just been unlucky with obtaining items with expertise on them. Should i just go for 16 str gems and just wait for some expertise items to drop in ulduar or will the dodges and parries that i gain mess up the rotation so much that it becomes a big dps loss?

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Hey guys, Im a massive fan of EJ and have used this site for a long time now. Im very happy with the way blood plays out at the moment as a 10 man raider.

However there's 1 thing that's bugging me, I have some 16 expertise gems in my gear and im still not at the expertise cap, i've just been unlucky with obtaining items with expertise on them. Should i just go for 16 str gems and just wait for some expertise items to drop in ulduar or will the dodges and parries that i gain mess up the rotation so much that it becomes a big dps loss?

STR has a higher stat weight average than EXP even prior to being capped. This is partly because there are sources of damage that are unaffected by EXP, however 100% of damage is increased by STR.

On the other hand, EXP is still a very strong stat up to the cap, so if you feel more comfortable with your rotation when eliminating dodge chance you may want to just keep the gems until your gear changes.

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How certain are we about the truth of this statement? I just did a flurry of tests with different buffs to test their impact on DRW. My results all yeilded the same DRW damage no matter what buffs I had up before casting DRW. The buffs tested include: Hysteria, Blood Fury, Unholy Strength and Grim Toll. Has anyone else seen similar/conflicting results?

[e]: just retested Unholy Strength, it appears to add a marginal amount of damage to DRW.

[e^2]: Pyrite Infuser appears to be adding a considerable amount of DRW damage and I think I was wrong about Blood Fury.

DRW is most likely just based of AP and Haste, comparable to the Gargoyle. Waiting for FC+Greatness procs is the optimal time to use DRW.

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I am an engineer Blood DK and I have noticed that the Pyro Rockets add a solid 1% dps every fight. They benefit from Blood Presence (15%), Blood Gorged (10%) and Curse of Elements (13%). They also have a chance to crit (not sure if it is equal to your spell or melee or whatever chance). They do not benefit from Bloody Vengeance or the passive "spells crit for 200%" skill DK's have.

So it's average hit is meant to be 1600 however recount tells me while soloing on a dummy that the average is 2000 (1600 *1.25 = 2000) and then the average in a raid is about 2250ish this is all excluding the crits.

assuming no crits 2250 / 45 = 50 DPS

I am wondering how this can compare to the Handspeed Accelerator enchant. which works out to be 56.6666 haste rating (340 * 10) / 60. However You can time it in with Hysteria/heroism/potion/DRW.....

Also this is a fantastic post, all the little things I was looking for in the old one but not spread across 50 pages >.<.

Nice work Orcy

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