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EgaL

Blessings>Totems in Raids

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I quite like the idea of shaman getting totems that influence caster damage, but in my opinion totems vs auras is not nearly as much of an issue as most people feel it is. In my opinion the biggest Paladin v. Shaman issues are

1) Totem range - as encounter design is moving to a larger scale (which is fantastic) they don't cut it, as Gurgthock and others have noted.

2) Number of the class required to feasibly buff a raid - significantly more Shaman needed.

3) Judgment of Wisdom!

In terms of a general comparison of utility I think most horde players underestimate Windfury substantially. It is already extraordinarily powerful and unlike Blessing of Might, scales extremely well. Yes I know BoK scales too but not comparably. A year of content from now Windfury will be vastly better than BoM+BoK for melee.

The pulse modification is the best suggestion I have heard for fixing the totem range issues. A resto talent that granted the ability to drop multiple totems of the same type is another potential fix - particularly if it included an improvement to totem duration (reasonable, since in practice paladins don't have to cast their blessings during a battle). Multiple totems wouldn't be as cool or dynamic as pulsing totems, though.

I'm very, very curious what Blizzard has in store for shaman.

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Unless I suck at math, a rogue with Grace of Air and poisoned weapons is going to put out more damage than a rogue with Windfury. I wonder how many alliance players actually know that Windfury and poisons don't stack.

Windfury is great for warriors, but in many situations the warrior you would give Windfury to is grouped with a rogue and/or a hunter, so using Grace of Air ends up being more beneficial.

I agree that whining doesn't help, but up to this point being constructive hasn't helped either. I have posted in dozens of threads just like this on the WoW forums. None of these threads have ever had any Blizzard response. There is no communication. What are we supposed to assume? Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do. The shaman is the least played class. Blizzard doesn't care, either at all, or enough.

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Unless I suck at math, a rogue with Grace of Air and poisoned weapons is going to put out more damage than a rogue with Windfury. I wonder how many alliance players actually know that Windfury and poisons don't stack.

Windfury is great for warriors, but in many situations the warrior you would give Windfury to is grouped with a rogue and/or a hunter, so using Grace of Air ends up being more beneficial.

I agree that whining doesn't help, but up to this point being constructive hasn't helped either. I have posted in dozens of threads just like this on the WoW forums. None of these threads have ever had any Blizzard response. There is no communication. What are we supposed to assume? Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do. The shaman is the least played class. Blizzard doesn't care, either at all, or enough.

Saying shaman is the least played class was cute, but is fundamentally untrue. If you realize shaman can only be played by 1 faction, then there are more shaman then, druids, priests, and warlocks, and the same as mages. If you also calculated that alliance is the more populated side 60/40, then there are probably roughly the same amount of shamans as paladins.

Not that any of this even makes a difference since the quality of a class has nothing to do with what the endless hordes of unwashed masses play. Take warlock for example warlocks are played by roughly 10% of the population, yet warlock is one of the most balanced and polished classes available, and for your average player, an infinitely better choice than warrior or rogue, since they fair significantly better in 1v1 pvp.

Also I highly doubt that GoA and weapon poisons is pushing more dmg than WF, and even if its close now, the gap is going to increase in the future since neither GoA nor poisons scale.

Shaman's have some of the best talents around. The problem is that there are no trees. There is a straight line of talents you take, and not knowing anything about shaman you could go right ahead and choose them. The only significant talent complaint is the path to MT.

The whole woa is me cry is cute on the blizzard forum, but honestly I don't think many people here care whether you cancel your account or not.

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Don't you think if Blizzard thought the totem mechanic was broken and that shaman talents were weak they would have done something about it a long time ago? I do.

:lol: :sheep:

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Lets not derail too much please.

Greater Totems any one got any cons?

Definition of Greater Totem:

* affect the whole raid

* perhaps 10 yards increased radius

* higher mana cost

* longer duration

* more hitpoints

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Lets not derail too much please.

Greater Totems any one got any cons?

Every person that has replied to you has in some way shape or form told you that raid wide totems arent a good idea and have given multiple reasons.

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Which that you like it to build groups around shamans?

Thats the only con: "making a horde raid group becomes easier" ?

I see that as a pro tbh :P

You would still build groups around shamans but in a different approach because you cant put down greater tranquil air totems you have to put down the small ones that affect only your group.

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It is a lazy fix and It would be better to see an increase in some totems power (not windfury or GoA) instead of seeing them affect more people. Raid wide totem would present problems with tranquil air, your suggestions for avoiding tranquil air issues are inelegant at best.

Edit: A large problem with totems currently is that some that seem like they should be worth while(healing stream, mana stream, stoneskin, stoneclaw to name a few) are way too underpowered to even be worth casting. Another problem is that while the wind totems and water totems have multiple useful incarnations, we see little to no reason to drop fire totems for the majority of all fights we enter in raids. ANOTHER problem is that totem talents are about as attractive as a crack whore who is about to retire. NONE of these problems would be fixed by making totems raid wide.

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Well it is easy and thats why they are gonna do this most likely -_-

Tranquil air totem wouldnt change but the difference would be that you can be affected from a windfury totem as well.

I do believe that some totems need a buff though (searing totem and so on)

The buff strength of Totems is pretty balanced the only problem is that you cant apply the buff to the whole raid if you want, when on the other hand with blessings it is no problem.

Auras should be applied to the whole raid too I guess to compensate for the greater resitance totems.

EDIT:

You are right those issues will be fixed with the shaman patch hopefully...

only 3 major patches to go...

You sure are pretty fucked up being last. Perhaps you ll get it a week before expansion hits the shelves rejoice!

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Well it is easy and thats why they are gonna do this most likely

indisputable proof :zoid:

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Also I highly doubt that GoA and weapon poisons is pushing more dmg than WF, and even if its close now, the gap is going to increase in the future since neither GoA nor poisons scale.

I'd be highly surprised if GoA/poisons provides more DPS than Windfury, honestly.

I can't test it, what with the whole alliance thing, but, math.

Compare.

I MH a Brutality Blade, I sit at around 1315 AP raid buffed (including battleshout). Obviously, this is significantly boosted due to Blessing of Might/Kings, so let's dump 150 AP and call it good, yeah? 1165 AP.

A Windfury attack will thus average 393.2 pre-mitigation damage. As a 20% chance on hit, this equals an average damage boost of 78.65 damage per strike.

GoA 3 provides 77 AP and 2.56% crit. IPVI, with the 3 piece Bloodfang bonus, adds an average of 32.5 damage per strike (not mitigated by armor). 77 AP adds roughly 13.75 damage per strike, mitigated by armor.

Let's assume ~20% armor mitigation, which seems to be about right for raid-debuffed (CoR, FF, and 5x Sunder) bosses.

62.92 damage per strike for Windfury, vs. 43.5 damage per strike for everything but the crit added by GoA/IPVI.

Does 2.56% crit add 19.42 post-mitigation damage per strike?

On my SS, 2.56% crit adds 14.46 pre-mitigated damage per strike.

On my white damage, it adds 8.98 pre-mitigated damage per strike for my MH (BB) and 6.78 for my offhand (Perdition's... we have weird drops, okay?)

Eviscerates are such a minimal amount of my overall strikes they can be considered negligible, but it adds 29.2 pre-mitigated damage per strike.

I SS once every 4 seconds, MH every 1.92, OH every 1.38, and Eviscerate roughly once every 45. This gives a weighted average added damage per strike as:

1/4(14.46)+1/1.92(8.98)+1/1.38(6.78)+1/45(29.2) = 13.85, pre-mitigation.

The math changes slightly for a dagger rogue, in that they get slightly less benefit out of WF due to fewer instants and smaller hits off instants (white damage evens out - more triggers, but for smaller amounts), but not significantly.

WF > GoA + poisons. Gear shouldn't change this much, but I'm entirely too lazy to check.

(This might change for heavily armored mobs, or for DPV, or for heavily poison-talented builds.... but that's grasping at straws.)

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Saying shaman is the least played class was cute, but is fundamentally untrue. If you realize shaman can only be played by 1 faction, then there are more shaman then, druids, priests, and warlocks, and the same as mages. If you also calculated that alliance is the more populated side 60/40, then there are probably roughly the same amount of shamans as paladins.

This pretty much doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I guess if you are basing this off of total % per faction? Could you explain a little more.

The whole woa is me cry is cute on the blizzard forum, but honestly I don't think many people here care whether you cancel your account or not.

I have no intentions of canceling my account, and I don't expect anyone here to care if I did. I will however express how I feel about certain subjects in threads focused on discussing them. That ok?

I did not intend to turn this thread into something similar to what you would read on the R&D forums. If I did, I apologize. I hate class whining as much as anyone, and I have honestly tried to keep an open mind about these reviews. I just want a little more communication from Blizzard. The shaman forums are such a desolate wasteland of useful discussion and communication. It gets annoying sometimes.

I imagine how much more interesting the game would be if some of our more useless totems(Flametongue, Stoneskin, Windwall, etc) were a little more viable in more raiding situations, and it makes me anxious. The class could be so much more fun and interesting, possibly without affecting balance in any meaningful way.

---

Anyways, back on topic.

As I said earlier, I don't like the idea of raid-wide totems, and I don't think blizzard will ever impliment a system for them.

I do like the pulsing, 30ish second duration buff idea.

I think totems should have a larger radius, cost less mana, and last longer.

I think they need to significantly change every single talent that improves a totem on the shaman talent tree. Most likely by combining a lot of them and increasing the bonus from the talent.

I would really like to see some new totems added, to give us more options and make choosing which totems to use a little more strategic. The +spell damage fire totem is the most common example.

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This pretty much doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I guess if you are basing this off of total % per faction? Could you explain a little more.

It is no secret that there are tons of shaman. I'm sure someone could quote census statistics, but I am suprised anyone would need to see numbers to be convinced.

Also, you should read other class forums occasionally, blizz is an equal opportunity ignorer. I dont blame them, they have about 5 million customers and every angry customer is on the boards complaining daily. Most classes have more issues than shaman and they have been waiting longer for those bigger fixes.My suggestion to you is to calm down and realize that your class is in a pretty decent position right now.

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WF > GoA + poisons. Gear shouldn't change this much, but I'm entirely too lazy to check.

(This might change for heavily armored mobs, or for DPV, or for heavily poison-talented builds.... but that's grasping at straws.)

Sup, Kalman. Thanks for running the math your way, since the approach I was taking (normalizing everything into an AP contribution) was ugly as hell.

In addition, even if windfury were suboptimal for rogues, they would still get it, due to the necessity of battleshout. I'd subtract the 128AP delta from (4/5 Imp.) Battleshout -> TSA in your calculations for the Grace of Air portion, as that represents the necessary group composition.

As a side note, we've found DPV to be almost entirely useless due to the "one stack per mob" rule. You can have one person using it, but then it doesn't max out its contribution fast enough. Two people using it, and you end up burning procs left and right.

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It is no secret that there are tons of shaman. I'm sure someone could quote census statistics, but I am suprised anyone would need to see numbers to be convinced.

I don't need to see the numbers. I regret making that comment, since it obviously has nothing to do with anything, and isn't accurate. I don't think there are more shaman than priests, warlocks, and mages, though. Maybe on the horde side, but not when you take into account both factions.

Also, you should read other class forums occasionally, blizz is an equal opportunity ignorer. I dont blame them, they have about 5 million customers and every angry customer is on the boards complaining daily. Most classes have more issues than shaman and they have been waiting longer for those bigger fixes.My suggestion to you is to calm down and realize that your class is in a pretty decent position right now.

I actually read the other class forums quite often(more like skim them, looking for something useful). There has recently been quite a bit of communication between Blizzard and the paladins, rogues, mages, druids, and priests(obviously). The shaman forum has had something like 4 blue posts. Ever. Half of which preview a couple of the new Relic's.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the original topic, and I apologize for derailing the thread with any of my posts.

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rogues

Trust me, you don't want the kinds of posts that the rogue forum has gotten. Really, you don't. They fall into "here's the latest nerfbat", "here's us trying to be warm and fuzzy", and "here's us cherrypicking stupid ideas and shooting them down."

Oh, and there was the whole feedback debacle. That was fun.

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Maybe I'm misreading your math, but it looks like you're accounting for Windfury proc'ing from off-hand attacks. Last I knew Windfury only affected the main-hand.

I would also like to see the math for Windfury on a dagger wielding rogue. I've done it myself, and GoA + Poisons came out on top. It's very possible I made some errors, though.

-edit-

The rogue I based my comparison off of uses Blessed Qiraji Pugio and Perdition's Blade. I'm no math wiz and I could have messed up, so I'd like to see the math from someone else.

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Hmm. As I was reading it, it was mainhand only, and the only place the offhand entered the calculations was calculating the value of AP and crit. (since the offhand is IP for both a windfury rogue and a GoA rogue).

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Sup, Kalman. Thanks for running the math your way, since the approach I was taking (normalizing everything into an AP contribution) was ugly as hell.

In addition, even if windfury were suboptimal for rogues, they would still get it, due to the necessity of battleshout. I'd subtract the 128AP delta from (4/5 Imp.) Battleshout -> TSA in your calculations for the Grace of Air portion, as that represents the necessary group composition.

As a side note, we've found DPV to be almost entirely useless due to the "one stack per mob" rule. You can have one person using it, but then it doesn't max out its contribution fast enough. Two people using it, and you end up burning procs left and right.

Yeah, I thought about trying to AP normalize, but it seemed simpler to just convert it into a damage-per-strike equivalent and work from that.

You know, soloing with DPV on, I haven't seen a problem with getting it stacked up to five reasonably fast; the 30% proc rate alone gets it up, and I'm not even 3 piece BF yet (waiting for a MH... still... my bad luck with MH drops is becoming ridiculous). That said, even though it provides pretty good DPS, I stick with IPVI in raids; the minor bonus from DPV isn't worth the debuff slot and (yes, I'm a cheapskate) the extra cost.

Again, I've never played a horde char past level 4, so: what's the interaction between GoA and Battle Shout that I've seen you refer to a couple times?

From what I know of totem mechanics, I don't think there's a simple change for what's *really* wrong with them (mobile fights making them useless). It's simply a fundamental problem with the design, that of a static buff source (see priest complaints re: lightwell for another example of this). I don't see a reason not to make them last a bit longer, though, in order to balance mana consumption for buffing cross-faction. Making them raid-wide would seem to have obvious problems, although possibly some totems could be extended raid-wide (resistance totems, mana tide, etc.) while keeping others (WF, TAT) group-centric.

People complaining about the fact that blessings are better than totems (arguable, but probably true) - honestly? Get over it. Faction imbalances should be something we're used to by now.

A pulsing aura would also help with in/out of range, although it comes with the downside of - if you miss a pulse, you're out of luck for the duration of time in between pulses.

Anyway. I'm alliance, and on this subject, I'm probably full of crap.

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If you're getting Grace of Air, you're not getting Battleshout because you're in a Shaman/Rogue/Rogue/Hunter/Hunter group. Warriors get windfury, period. Any small DPS gain the rogue might have would be completely annulled by taking away WF from the group's warrior, since the rage generation is significant.

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Hmm. As I was reading it, it was mainhand only, and the only place the offhand entered the calculations was calculating the value of AP and crit. (since the offhand is IP for both a windfury rogue and a GoA rogue).

No, I was being an alliance retard and assuming WF worked the same way as sword spec, which (knowing that it takes the place of the MH temp enchant) I should have known better than to do.

Thus.

WF is MH only, adding 62.92 post-mit damage per strike (hence abbreviated DPH, damage per hit). Can WF proc on Eviscerate strikes? I am assuming yes?

IPVI adds 32.5 DPH to the OH, post-mit.

Using the weighted average method from my post:

1/4(62.92)+1/1.92(62.92)+1/1.38(32.5)+1/45(62.92) = 73.44 post-mit DPH for Windfury/IPVI combo.

Let's rework the GOA/IPVI stats in more detail, especially since I didn't take the offhand damage penalty into account when giving my OH crit value (correctly, it should have been 4.89, not 6.78.)

MHauto gets 50.68 post-mit DPH.

OHauto gets 42.35 post-mit DPH (less for non-combat builds)

Evisc gets 55.86 post-mit DPH.

SS gets 55.26 post-mit DPH.

1/4(55.26)+1/1.92(50.68)+1/1.38(42.35)+1/45(55.86) = 72.1 post-mit DPH

Thus, WF still comes out ahead, albeit by a smaller margin.

Give me some time to work out the dagger version.

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I don't understand why paladin Greater Blessings have suddenly become a point of comparison when arguing balance. It wasn't a balance change -- it was a convenience change. It may have had some practical balance effects, but let's not overstate them.

Blessings have always been a single-target buff castable on anyone, like PW:F, MotW, or AI. Those used to be single-cast also, because the game was designed around 5-man content. Rebuffing your group every 30 minutes is no big deal. But if you're one of two druids in a 40-man raid, rebuffing 20 people individually every time there's a wipe? Fuck that. It's not fun. It doesn't make the game harder -- it makes it much more tedious. So they changed it. Those spells can now target 5 people at once (one group). The same was true for paladin blessings, so they changed those. It doesn't make sense to base those around groups since the MT doesn't want to share the BoS that the rogue in his group gets. So they did it around classes -- still averaging 5 targets per cast.

From day one, paladins could bless the whole raid and shaman totems only affected a group. Sure, it might have been inconvenient as hell, but I want to hear an Alliance guild come in here and tell me that they would've let BoK lapse on their tanks and rogues while learning the Twin Emps because "man, recasting all that shit every 5 minutes is so annoying." No. In any situation where it really matters (i.e., not trash, not farming some easy boss) the buffs would be there. Trying to point to Greater Blessings and argue that now shamans need a raid totem makes no sense. Why not give warlocks a raidwide imp? Maybe moonkin would actually be worthwhile if they gave the entire raid +% crit!

Shaman totems are meant to parallel paladin auras, not blessings or judgments. They're meant to have some of the same restrictions. We get ranged elemental DPS, and paladins get buffs and judgments. In a lot of other settings, that's balanced. In the raid game, it's not. But I think people are naive if they expect Blizzard to throw fundamental aspects of class design out the window at this stage of the game.

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Of course, I also failed to account for crits on WF procs.

And the fact that GoA = no battle shout pretty much kills the argument, anyway.

I'll do daggers anyway, because I'm a filthy completist.

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Of course, I also failed to account for crits on WF procs.

And the fact that GoA = no battle shout pretty much kills the argument, anyway.

I'll do daggers anyway, because I'm a filthy completist.

Daggers.

Hypothetical rogue:

1165 AP, 35% crit (from dagger spec.) BQP/DFB combo.

WF:

specials and MH: 20% chance of a proc for:

(103+(1165+315)/14*1.7)*.2*.8*(1+.35) = 61.1 post-mit DPH.

OH: 32.5 DPH from IPVI.

GoA/IPVI:

MHauto: 5.19 post-mit from crit, 10.28 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 47.97 DPH post-mit.

OHauto: 3.98 post-mit from crit, 8.17 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 44.65 DPH post-mit.

BS: 22.9 post-mit from crit, 25.28 post-mit from AP, 32.5 post-mit from IPVI, totals 80.68 DPH post-mit.

Weighted averages:

1/6(61.1)+1/1.3(61.1)+1/1.38(32.5) = 80.73 DPS for WF

1/6(80.68)+1/1.3(47.97)+1/1.38(44.65) = 82.7 DPS for GoA/IPVI

If you account for the AP you lose from losing battle shout, WF comes out far, far ahead. Otherwise yes, GoA comes out very, very slightly ahead of WF for a combat dagger rogue.

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Probably you re right Praetorian.

Well but Greater Totems would be a easy and quick fix I dont think it would imbalance the pve game too much in favor of the horde.

Well buffing the whole raid with 5 min buff wasnt effective as a paladin. Half of the raid was no problem though, we always divided the important blessings so that each paladin had to bless 20 ppl (by hitting one button 20 times).

Still those blessings wouldnt prolong through most of the AQ boss encounters and it would ve been impossible(at least very ineffective because blessing 20 ppl who are not standing at one spot to receive blessings ~ 2k-4k mana and approx 30++ secs) for us to reapply them.

With greater blessings in place I really see an imbalance there. This could be fixed with greater totems imho. Instead of coordinating groups you can coordinate shamans which totems they place at which position who places which totem etc.

Please think about it a bit more you would be more flexible it would be a straight forward buff because you essentially GAIN a spell not loosing any spell you had before.

I think this wouldnt destroy the whole class balance and it wouldnt destroy the shaman class nor would it completely change the playstyle of shamans it would affect only the totems you put down (as greater blessings affect only the buffs you cast before combat)

Ask for all auras (eg Aspect of the pack, blood pact etc.) count for the whole raid group... perhaps a max number of people should be affected to avoid 30 ppl clustering in a 30 yard circle around a totem to get that whatever buff... That would be to complex to implement though so it most likely wont be implemented.

And after all why not let all auras (leader of the pack, blood pact, conc aura etc.) affect the whole raid?

Would that really trivialise any given encounter?

I cant think of any tbh.

Edit: Well GoA and WF would be nice for rogues wouldnt it? Your whole discussion would be kinda pointless cuz you could have both buffs with greater totems and dont have any trade off in other groups.

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