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EgaL

Blessings>Totems in Raids

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With greater blessings in place I really see an imbalance there. This could be fixed with greater totems imho. Instead of coordinating groups you can coordinate shamans which totems they place at which position who places which totem etc.

I'm going to have to agree with gurg here. Greater Blessings were essentially a convenience fix, not a balance fix. Our priests can get PW:F on a battle resed tank, and paladins could renew BoK or whatever on truly essential personnel before the change. It's not a big deal, it just requires a small amount of attention.

What you're looking for in Greater Totems isn't a convenience fix. It's a straight up overpowering of a mechanic that works just fine as-is. Totems are equivalent to Auras, not blessings. Alliance raiding is more buff-intensive due to Paladins having auras and blessings. Horde raiding is less buff-intensive because Shamans effectively have auras, and that's it. In exchange, we get ranged elemental damage and a few effects Auras don't have.

If you wish to address the "balance issue" of Greater Blessings, you need to do it by changing shamans' elemental damage somehow. AE shocks maybe? Still not as useful in a raid setting.

Please think about it a bit more you would be more flexible it would be a straight forward buff because you essentially GAIN a spell not loosing any spell you had before.

We wouldn't be more flexible, we'd be more powerful. That's a big difference.

I think this wouldnt destroy the whole class balance and it wouldnt destroy the shaman class nor would it completely change the playstyle of shamans it would affect only the totems you put down (as greater blessings affect only the buffs you cast before combat)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059038674...5Fencoding=UTF8

edit: Well GoA and WF would be nice for rogues wouldnt it? Your whole discussion would be kinda pointless cuz you could have both buffs with greater totems and dont have any trade off in other groups.

That's sort of the point. Especially if we take your argument further and apply TSA, LotP etc. to every DPS member of the raid. At that point it trivializes pretty much EVERY encounter in the game.

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Kalman, you are a calculation machine. I didn't bother even trying the numbers because the outcome seemed obvious, but it actually ends up being closer than I had imagined. This is with current itemization though, and that was ultimately my point - no calculations required to see that regardless of how things now, in the future Windfury will certainly exceed nonscaling buffs.

Bartolimu, I stopped reading Egal's posts on the first page. Seeing what you quote reminds me why.

Gurg~ what happened is that the Greater Blessings change made all the Horde with their heads up their rears able to realize what sort of advantages Alliance actually reap from Paladins. As you said, nothing has changed except perhaps a slight mana efficiency bonus in terms of practicality of Blessings.

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Kalman, you are a calculation machine. I didn't bother even trying the numbers because the outcome seemed obvious, but it actually ends up being closer than I had imagined. This is with current itemization though, and that was ultimately my point - no calculations required to see that regardless of how things now, in the future Windfury will certainly exceed nonscaling buffs.

Bartolimu, I stopped reading Egal's posts on the first page. Seeing what you quote reminds me why.

Gurg~ what happened is that the Greater Blessings change made all the Horde with their heads up their rears able to realize what sort of advantages Alliance actually reap from Paladins. As you said, nothing has changed except perhaps a slight mana efficiency bonus in terms of practicality of Blessings.

You would not believe how bored I am at work today. Got any other (rogue) situations you want theorycrafted, while I'm at it?

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As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

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As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

-whatwhat-

Do you have an alliance alt on the Dragonblight server named "Xal" by chance?

Edit: To make this somewhat constructive... "balance" and "symmetry" are two very different things.

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And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

I dont think I understand why you would say this, the rogue would be getting more white damage attacks, that have less chance to crit than specials and GoA gives approx 2.5% crit rate.

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As far as the shaman is concerned, if it ain't broke, why are we trying to fix it? And why are we trying to balance the two factions anyways? We're unique, and that's how it should be.

And as for the whole WF rogue arguement, GoA is about a million times better. Why? Aggro management.

Aggro management is not normally difficult for a rogue.

I think they call it Vanish. Yes, yes they do. Learn to use it proactively and aggro management is easy. Playing with kittens easy. Getting a venereal disease from the hotpants of a sorority girl easy.

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You would not believe how bored I am at work today. Got any other (rogue) situations you want theorycrafted, while I'm at it?

Actually since this thread already seems to have taken a significant derailment...

I've been combat daggers for a while. For the last several weeks I've been combat daggers with 3/5 Daggerspec and Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes. Lately I've been wondering whether 5/5 Daggerspec 2/3 Ruthlessness and no Relentless Strikes would be superior. I haven't done any math but my reasoning is that the majority of my damage comes from white, and Daggerspec influences that as well as specials. Ruth/Relent only affects specials. Sure I could give up Blade Flurry and go 2/3 Slice and Dice instead but life without Blade Flurry is not very appealing.

You may well have already done the math on this, but is it really an improvement to have Ruth/Relentless over full Dagger Specialization?

But of course for Witchdoctor the answer is simple, because Dagger Spec results in more aggro!

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Blessings have always been a single-target buff castable on anyone, like PW:F, MotW, or AI. Those used to be single-cast also, because the game was designed around 5-man content. Rebuffing your group every 30 minutes is no big deal. But if you're one of two druids in a 40-man raid, rebuffing 20 people individually every time there's a wipe? Fuck that. It's not fun. It doesn't make the game harder -- it makes it much more tedious. So they changed it. Those spells can now target 5 people at once (one group). The same was true for paladin blessings, so they changed those. It doesn't make sense to base those around groups since the MT doesn't want to share the BoS that the rogue in his group gets. So they did it around classes -- still averaging 5 targets per cast.

From day one, paladins could bless the whole raid and shaman totems only affected a group. Sure, it might have been inconvenient as hell, but I want to hear an Alliance guild come in here and tell me that they would've let BoK lapse on their tanks and rogues while learning the Twin Emps because "man, recasting all that shit every 5 minutes is so annoying." No. In any situation where it really matters (i.e., not trash, not farming some easy boss) the buffs would be there. Trying to point to Greater Blessings and argue that now shamans need a raid totem makes no sense. Why not give warlocks a raidwide imp? Maybe moonkin would actually be worthwhile if they gave the entire raid +% crit!

Not entirely true. Dealing with the 5min buff was a nontrivial operation.

A lot of classes can use 4 Blessings (Anyone wants Kings, anyone can use Light, almost everyone wants Salv, everyone wants either Wisdom or Might). To buff to full potential, a raid of 4 or 5 Pallies has some people buffing 40 raid members. So let's say you write of some of the buffs as being frivolous, and pick 2 important ones for each class. Each Paladin is now buffing 20 people, which takes about a minute before the pull (30 or so to buff, 30 to drink). Realistically, a big longer, due to limited people with Kings, people with Improved Blessings, etc.

So, even a boss pull that you're fully preparing for, some raid members are going in with Kings at <4mins. Can you rebuff Kings on the whole raid 4 minutes later? Sure, but takes over a minute of Paladin time, and a huge chunk of mana. So only some people even get Kings for more than 4 minutes of your fight. Salv would have been the same way, if Improved Salvation hadn't been around since the beginning.

Greater Blessings changed the whole picture. Now, buffs were limited by their actual durations and stacking properties, not by the logistics of casting them. Every raid member having 3-4 Blessings is a reality now, where is wasn't before, and this is what the Horde whiners on R&D are picking up on. Like I said in my first post, I'd like to see the logistics of totems ironed out in similar fashion.

-----

Egal: The analogy between Greater Blessings and raid-wide totems just isn't there. Coming in with an idea is nice, but at some point, you have to listen to what basically every person on this thread is telling you.

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Not entirely true. Dealing with the 5min buff was a nontrivial operation.

A lot of classes can use 4 Blessings (Anyone wants Kings, anyone can use Light, almost everyone wants Salv, everyone wants either Wisdom or Might). To buff to full potential, a raid of 4 or 5 Pallies has some people buffing 40 raid members. So let's say you write of some of the buffs as being frivolous, and pick 2 important ones for each class. Each Paladin is now buffing 20 people, which takes about a minute before the pull (30 or so to buff, 30 to drink). Realistically, a big longer, due to limited people with Kings, people with Improved Blessings, etc.

Right, I understand this point -- it definitely had more practical effect than the group PW:F or MotW, which didn't really change the mechanics of any given fight, but just reduced tedium overall.

There's definitely an advantage to being able to pre-buff vs. having to re-buff midfight, and I realize that keeping every blessing up on every raid member was basically impossible before. But the practical effect on a high-end fight like the Emps wouldn't necessarily be tremendous. Most people don't need Salvation. Your mages and warlocks can live without Kings and Wisdom. You'd have to pick and choose, but you'd still have warriors and rogues with BoK 100% of the time, healers with BoW, etc. Obviously that becomes a given now with Greater Blessings, but the classes that needed the blessings the most would still get them in important fights.

In any case, the need to re-cast blessings every few minutes, mid-fight, isn't all that different from the need to re-drop totems every time your group moves at all. Both are annoying and inconvenient, and also entail a waste of valuable mana. I think Blizzard knows they need to do something about it -- I've already stated my pet idea a couple of times. But yeah, I would be shocked (and a bit disappointed, actually), if they came out with raidwide totems as their solution.

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Actually since this thread already seems to have taken a significant derailment...

I've been combat daggers for a while. For the last several weeks I've been combat daggers with 3/5 Daggerspec and Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes. Lately I've been wondering whether 5/5 Daggerspec 2/3 Ruthlessness and no Relentless Strikes would be superior. I haven't done any math but my reasoning is that the majority of my damage comes from white, and Daggerspec influences that as well as specials. Ruth/Relent only affects specials. Sure I could give up Blade Flurry and go 2/3 Slice and Dice instead but life without Blade Flurry is not very appealing.

You may well have already done the math on this, but is it really an improvement to have Ruth/Relentless over full Dagger Specialization?

But of course for Witchdoctor the answer is simple, because Dagger Spec results in more aggro!

(It isn't a thread until it's been hijacked a bit.)

Hmm.

Sticky question.

One thing to remember is that, as combat daggers, ruthless/relentless proc points pretty much only go towards your white damage - you're not going to be eviscerating very often.

2/3 ISnD still, with the contributed CP from Ruthlessness/Relentless, allows you to (over time) maintain a pure 5 CP SnD cycle. It's tight, but over time, if you're careful about letting SnD always run down to zero before firing, you'll come out about null, even accounting for misses. Without Ruthlessness/Relentless, that's not possible. You wind up pushing a lot more of your energy into keeping SnD up, which detracts from it being used for damage.

Quick calcs, 1300 AP, 30% base crit (pre-dagger spec), combat daggers, PB/CHT. 12% +hit, between talents and gear.

Build A: 16/25/10

2/3 ISnD, Ruthless/Relentless, 4/5 Dagger Spec

Build B: 16/25/10

1/3 ISnD, Ruthless/Relentless, 5/5 Dagger Spec

Build B: 16/25/10

3/3 ISnD, 2/3 Ruthless, 5/5 Dagger Spec

Build A has a sustainable SnD cycle at 5 CP (4.4 CP per cycle, 0 energy, 4.4*60 per CP = 264 energy, 273 energy generated during 5 CP SnD, sustainable)

Energy devoted to damage: 100%

Build B has a sustainable SnD cycle at 3 CP (2.4 CP per cycle, 10 energy for SnD, 2.4*60+10 = 154 energy, 172.5 generated during 3 CP SnD, sustainable)

Energy devoted to damage: 93.5%

Build C has a sustainable SnD cycle at 4 CP (3.6 CP per cycle, 25 energy for SnD, 3.6*60+25 = 241 energy, 261 energy generated during 4 CP SnD, sustainable)

Energy devoted to damage: 89.6%

(Extra energy is assumed consumed by misses and SnD being refreshed before the very last second. It's theorycraft, I can do it if I want to.)

Therefore all builds allow the following calculation:

White DPS, build A:

(58.5 + .75*51.2 + 1300/14*1.75)*(.88)*(1+.34)*1.3 = 397.65

White DPS, build B/C:

(58.5 + .75*51.2 + 1300/14*1.75)*(.88)*(1+.35)*1.3 = 400.61

Now, yellow DPS is dependent on energy efficiency.

Yellow DPS, build A:

(105 + 1300/14*1.7 + 225)*1.8*(1+1.3*.64)/6 = 268.12

Yellow DPS, build B:

(105 + 1300/14*1.7 + 225)*1.8*(1+1.3*.65)/6*.935 = 252.47

Yellow DPS, build C:

(105 + 1300/14*1.7 + 225)*1.8*(1+1.3*.65)/6*.896 = 241.95

So, at first glance, it would appear that it is an improvement, due to better energy efficiency being of more value than 1% crit. 16/25/10, using 2/3 ISnD, Ruthless/Relentless, and 4/5 Dagger Spec is definitely the theorycraft king here. Now, 3/3 ISnD provides for a more comfortable SnD cycle in terms of accounting for misses, bad luck with Ruthlessness procs, etc., and may well be worth taking another point out of dagger spec for.

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You would not believe how bored I am at work today. Got any other (rogue) situations you want theorycrafted, while I'm at it?

I'd second the thanks, and regret that I've been running around too much today to post this earlier: Feel like taking a crack at the delta between combat and hemo accounting for fun things like Improved Rupture that we tried to do in this thread?

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?showtopic=6162

And yes, 3/3 ISnD is much more practical from a raid perspective. I used 16/25/10 for a while, but often ended up losing 2-3 seconds of time without SnD if I had an unlucky event. That just doesn't happen with 3/3 because you have a cushion, and it also allows for usage of things like Kick if you need to (Yauj and Skeram being the primary offenders here).

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I'd second the thanks, and regret that I've been running around too much today to post this earlier: Feel like taking a crack at the delta between combat and hemo accounting for fun things like Improved Rupture that we tried to do in this thread?

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?showtopic=6162

And yes, 3/3 ISnD is much more practical from a raid perspective. I used 16/25/10 for a while, but often ended up losing 2-3 seconds of time without SnD if I had an unlucky event. That just doesn't happen with 3/3 because you have a cushion, and it also allows for usage of things like Kick if you need to (Yauj and Skeram being the primary offenders here).

Hmm. That's also a sticky one, just due to scope. But, sure.

Again using 1300/30%, 7% item +hit. Weapons, for the sake of argument, are AQR/CTS. Why? Because AQR is more favorable for hemo than the CTS combo would be, and the extra damage from using a fast offhand in a hemo build is near-negligible (1.0 speed offhand nets you 7 hemo DPS, 2.6 speed offhand nets you 2.7 hemo DPS).

Builds are assumed 20/31 pure PvE combat and 21/3/27 hemo, built towards PvE (full SnD, Imp Rupture, etc.)

Special cycles are:

Combat - 5S/5R/3S. 5S gives you 304.5 energy during the SnD; 5R requires 4.4 CP, requiring 176 energy. 3S requires 2.4 CP, requiring 96 energy, plus 10 energy for the SnD, totalling 282 energy during the first cycle portion. Remaining 20 energy is assumed used up by misses and timing. 3S gives you 217.5 energy; 5S requires 4.4 CP, 176 energy. Again, energy slack is used for misses and timing.

Hemo - 5S/5R. 5S gives you 304.5 energy during the SnD; 5R requires 4.4 CP, 154 energy. Total 308 for the cycle, you'll lose SnD very briefly at times, but 5/5 is close enough to sustainable I'll let hemo have it.

Rupture uptimes:

C: 22/(30.45+21.75) = 42.14%

H: 22/30.45 = 72.25%

White DPS, combat:

(58.4 + 58.5*.75 + 1300/14*1.75)*.88*(1+.3)*1.3 = 393.77

White DPS, hemo

(58.4 + 58.5*.5 + 1300/14*1.5)*.83*(1+.3)*1.3 = 318.32

Yellow DPS, combat:

(163.5 + 1300/14*2.4 + 68)*1.06*(1+1.3*.3)/4 = 167.36

Yellow DPS, hemo:

((163.5 + 1300/14*2.8)*(1+1.3*.3))/3.5 = 168.19

Hemo debuff DPS:

Assume exhaustion before reapplication, this is known to be 60 DPS (210/3.5).

Combat rupture:

.4214*42.5 = 17.9 DPS

Hemo rupture:

.722*42.5*1.3 = 39.9 DPS

Sword spec DPS:

N = expected value for a single sword spec proc

N = ((163.5 + 1300/14*2.8)*(1.3)*.88) = 484.48

(1/4 + (1/2.8 + 1/2.6)*1.3)*.05*484.48 = 29.41 DPS

393.77 + 167.36 + 17.9 + 29.41 = 608.44

318.32 + 168.19 + 60 + 39.9 = 586.41

Notes: I have not accounted for Blade Flurry or Adrenaline Rush, nor for Cold Blood. However, it'd be hard to argue that *for this gear* hemo wouldn't be a competitive choice. WF and poisons are nearly build-independent and have been ignored.

For anything that isn't an AQR, I suspect the gap would widen.

Also note that Rupture is mostly unmitigated damage, while everything else is mitigated, which would close the gap as:

(393.77 + 167.36 + 29.41)*.8 + 17.9 = 490.332

(318.32 + 168.19 + 60)*.8 + 39.9 = 477.1

(Is the Hemo debuff damage mitigated by armor? I really don't know.)

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Occasionally, when grouped with a tanking warrior, I get them to agree to BattleShout, and accept a Grace of Air totem for the +Dodge from 77agility (5% dodge and 3.8% crit is pretty fucking nice for anyone). Still, the vast majority of the time, I can't.

Greater Blessings vs. Greater Totems is interesting. What would the majority of the people here think about the possibility of adding "off-clickable", increased-range, class-based totems that affected the raid as a whole. Ie. Strength of Earth Totem (Rogue), as in the new Paladin blessings.

It'd be tedious, and it would never happen, but it could at least solve some of the problems.

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I don't have a clue about the hemo debuff either. Any pvpers in the audience want to chime in?

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I don't have a clue about the hemo debuff either. Any pvpers in the audience want to chime in?

Hemo is the same Aura Mod (Damage Taken) as, say, Curse of Blood. No way that's mitigated by armor.

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I don't have a clue about the hemo debuff either. Any pvpers in the audience want to chime in?

Eh, I'm pretty sure it's just Hit-damage +7, non-mitigated by armor.

So, your white hit that hits for 220 after armor hits for 227 after armor with hemo.

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Agree, Hemo is post-mitigation. It increases the damage taken by your target, per Gurgthock's comment.

Those numbers come out much closer than I had imagined. I'm not sure I agree that Windfury is build-independent, though. Sword Spec and Precision both influence Windfury attacks. I think this would widen the gap slightly. Also dislike relying on Rupture for damage.

Still, it's neat to see that Hemo can hold its own in terms of raid DPS, while still being terribly fun in PVP.

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It is no secret that there are tons of shaman. I'm sure someone could quote census statistics, but I am suprised anyone would need to see numbers to be convinced.

Also, you should read other class forums occasionally, blizz is an equal opportunity ignorer. I dont blame them, they have about 5 million customers and every angry customer is on the boards complaining daily. Most classes have more issues than shaman and they have been waiting longer for those bigger fixes.My suggestion to you is to calm down and realize that your class is in a pretty decent position right now.

Yes, and if you're trying to claim that blizzard ignores shaman because they're the least played class, then why does blizzard all but ignore rogues?

Think about that one. ;)

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A first or second tier enhancement talent that increased the range of your totems by 2/4/6/8/10 yards is all they need to do in order to fix them for end game raiding. I think the real problem is the strength of the totems. I can keep manaspring totem down for an entire bossfight which will result in no mana gain for me. In fact I actually lose a fair bit from breaking my spirit regen while will giving the priest in my group an extra say 360 mana, enough for one flash heal.

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Here's a challenge for you, Kalman - what's the DPS contribution of the Badge of the Swarmguard. The debuff vanishes when the duration ends, and it's probably fair to assume a 3-stack as an average -AC.

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Is there a concise and accurate introduction to Rogue theorycraft somewhere? It's something I've always thought I should know a bit more about.

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Here's a challenge for you, Kalman - what's the DPS contribution of the Badge of the Swarmguard. The debuff vanishes when the duration ends, and it's probably fair to assume a 3-stack as an average -AC.

Last I checked, a fixed amount of armor added or removed would provide a variable amount of DPS gain depending on the point at which it started, but a fixed gain in killtime.

E.G.

0 armor, 0 reduction.

1000 armor provides 15.38% damage reduction.

2000 armor provides 26.6% damage reduction.

3000 armor provides 35.2% damage reduction.

Each step of 1000 armor reduces DPS by less (increases it by more, for debuffs) than the previous 1000 armor.

However, if you assume you need to do 1 unit of damage, and are damaging at 1 unit per second.

0 armor, it's a 1 second kill.

1000 armor, it's a 1.18 second kill.

2000 armor, it's a 1.36 second kill.

3000 armor, it's a 1.54 second kill.

2600 armor, it's a 1.47 second kill.

3600 armor, it's a 1.65 second kill.

In other words, the amount of extended (reduced) survival time for a fixed amount of armor being added or reduced is linear, even though the DPS gain/reduction grows as roughly 1/x.

Thus, I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving an answer, since the raw DPS contribution varies by starting point, even though the end result (roughly 8% more effective DPS over the duration) is fixed.

Rough guess, though, is that it's worth 8*(30/180) = 1.3% more DPS.

In other words: it's probably less effective than Blackhand's Breadth for sustained DPS.

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