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Krag

Warriors, Talents and Tactical Mastery.

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It's not just 5 points, or 6 points if you include evocation. Mages are saving 16 points, if they don't spec arcane. The 10 previous points, + the 6. Or in the warrior's case 10 points. Now I've never looked at what you would spec as a mage, nor could a tell you, especially if they add synergy between fire and frost, but as a warrior I'll tell you the ability to go fury/prot with TM would be the ultimate PvE/PvP synergy.

mages should get presence of mind as a class skill because everyone has it imo

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Well, unless the last 10 points in one of the trees is simply amazing, I guarantee you'll see a lot of 0/30/31 and 30/0/31 druids.

I'm absolutely sure you will, and ton of 30/31 rogues, and 31/30 warriors. Why wouldn't you have AR, and SF, or MS+Flurry. If the 31 point talents aren't a must have, how do you scale beyond them? Merely by making the higher tier talents that good, that you take something like lightwell to fill a talent point?

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Blizzard has said repeatedly that the idea behind they 31 point talents is that they're not supposed to be some godly must have. Just something that makes the build uniquely different by specing into it.

What makes a 31/20 build more "uniquely different" than a 30/21 build? They're both uniquely different. It just so happens that many classes have such shitty 31 point talents that a 30/21 build offers much, much more (e.g. 30 Fire / 21 Arcane vs. 31 Fire / 20 Arcane).

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Evocation is great example of something that should be made a class skill (more so than IAE). No build without Evo is going to be more useful in raids than any build with Evo.

Following this logic, innervate and maybe even natures swiftness should be class skills as well.

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Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

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Lightwell is a piece of garbage. I've see a lot of 1.10 priest builds with 30 points in holy and 21 in discipline.

Someone popped a Lightwell last Nef kill and I thought I had a graphical glitch or something until I got around to hovering over it :blink:

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Someone popped a Lightwell last Nef kill and I thought I had a graphical glitch or something until I got around to hovering over it :blink:

Lightwell might be useful if you run out of Elune Stones and Wood and want a nice "tank stand here" beacon.

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Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

Thad in LoH dropped one on our late night Emeriss kill. This is one of the few things I remember from this weekend.

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Hey now.

Someone claimed to have seen a lightwell last night and said it was cool looking. I don't believe it. Not that it isn't cool looking but that someone actually has that talent. Snuffleupagus, I say.

That was me, and I almost reloaded my UI before I moused over it.

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Following this logic, innervate and maybe even natures swiftness should be class skills as well.

Precisely. Where do you draw the line of what is "necessity" and what merits the use of talent points?

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We have a Priest that drops a Lightwell in our raids. I make sure to use up all the charges before I pull. :ninja:

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We have a Priest that drops a Lightwell in our raids. I make sure to use up all the charges before I pull. :ninja:

Since this thread is now officially off topic, I wanted to ask you if you afk'd out of an AB last week that I was in. I thought I saw your name flash by me and I was going to try to tag you with some lightning, but you were gone next moment I looked at the roster.

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Following this logic, innervate and maybe even natures swiftness should be class skills as well.

There's a 12-page thread around here somewhere that would say differently about Druids. I doubt such a discussion would happen about Evocation.

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Since this thread is now officially off topic, I wanted to ask you if you afk'd out of an AB last week that I was in. I thought I saw your name flash by me and I was going to try to tag you with some lightning, but you were gone next moment I looked at the roster.

It definitely wasn't me. I haven't really had the chance to BG much lately. :(

I always welcome a nice Chain Lightning to the face, though.

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There's a 12-page thread around here somewhere that would say differently about Druids. I doubt such a discussion would happen about Evocation.

Do any druids disagree that any decent build with Innervate is better for raiding than any decent build without Innervate?

Edit: I could say the same for purification and nautres swiftness, or the shaman restoration tree in general. Any build with points in resto is better for raiding than a build without points in resto.

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My problem with mages possibly getting IAE has very little to do with Tactical Mastery (you know how I feel about that). I instead feel great rage for my warlock brethren. :(

That and it's any easy way out, whatever.

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Do any druids disagree that any decent build with Innervate is better for raiding than any decent build without Innervate?

Actually, yea. There's some amount of uncertainty about whether Innervate or Efficiency-build is actually more healing per boss fight. If I can manage to get a Lok I'll test it out and we'll see.

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Do any druids disagree that any decent build with Innervate is better for raiding than any decent build without Innervate?

That brings up a point that I had been wondering about WRT the Druid thread. Furor doesn't strike me as being that great a talent for the raiding druid. However, in the thread, apparently, the druids had to strike deals about which of them would pick up Improved Mark of the Wild, a skill that, granted, only one druid in the raid needs to have if you're willing to spend forever buffing.

Is the reason for Furor for those "Oh, shit!" moments when they pop bear form and feral charge a runner, or tanking jin'do, or things of that ilk? Or is it for solo/pvp?

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As time approaches infinity, the probability of any given thread turning into a Druid discussion approaches 100%.

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Do any druids disagree that any decent build with Innervate is better for raiding than any decent build without Innervate?

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?showtopic=6015

Short version: Yes, when you view the issue in the broader scheme of a full raid group rather than as an individual spec.

Edit: Oh, FFS ---- ^^^^^ NO DRUID DISCUSSION BELOW THIS LINE ^^^^^

Anyway, TM is different because no matter what your playstyle, what your spec, which skills you use -- everything flows from your rage and the use of multiple stances depending on the situation. A core mechanic for warriors pretty much requires TM to function. It's as if rogues only regen'd 15 energy a tick naturally and had a 10pt Subtlety talent that increased it to 20, or something. It's just mandatory for the whole rest of the class to work.

IAE is different -- the problem is that AE is garbage unless it's instacast. It compares poorly to all other AoEs out there if it has a cast time. But, that said, while IAE may be required for 5-man (How else are you going to do the zergs in Uldaman??), I think a raiding mage could probably live without it for pure 40-man PvE. It's just that... why would you? Once you have points in fire or frost, arcane just offers better options on every tier of the tree. It's probably the best tree mages have. People don't go arcane for IAE, they go arcane for ten different reasons.

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Actually, yea. There's some amount of uncertainty about whether Innervate or Efficiency-build is actually more healing per boss fight. If I can manage to get a Lok I'll test it out and we'll see.

I should have just said "just because a talent is neccessary for optimal raiding doesnt mean it should be a skill. You cant assume that every talent build and every talent tree and every talent will bring the same results in raiding. Look at healing specs vs damage specs for healers, look at the beast mastery tree vs other trees for hunters etc. Its a bad idea to balance talents around what is neccessary for optimal raiding" but whatever.

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As time approaches infinity, the probability of any given thread turning into a Druid discussion approaches 100%.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

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Actually, yea. There's some amount of uncertainty about whether Innervate or Efficiency-build is actually more healing per boss fight. If I can manage to get a Lok I'll test it out and we'll see.

I think overall innervate is becoming less, and less useful as blizzard moves away from spirit towards MoT, and thus the efficiency guild, that gives a druid individual healing power will eventually become the preferred build.

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I'm absolutely sure you will, and ton of 30/31 rogues, and 31/30 warriors. Why wouldn't you have AR, and SF, or MS+Flurry. If the 31 point talents aren't a must have, how do you scale beyond them? Merely by making the higher tier talents that good, that you take something like lightwell to fill a talent point?

I'm really interested in seeing how 31/3/27 works out, as well as 17/31/13 (or 18/33/10). Again, I can't really see anything that they can add as the last 10 points in the Rogue Trees that would be "must-have" without being "game-breaking", unless it's something screwy like "You are no longer taken out of stealth by resisted AoE spells" as the 41pt Subtlety talent, or something that really needs to be done anyway.

Rogues get a great amount of power very early in their talent trees (ie. Imp Gouge, Imp Backstab, MoD, Opportunity). Unless the 41pt Combat Talent is something like wearing Mail Armor, or a +10% bonus to Agi, I can't really see how it would be a "must have".

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