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Murna

Feral DPS Discussion

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As far as the current theory is concerned, once you reach the trinket soft cap on ArP (556), you want to start gemming agility (while maintaining the soft cap, of course). It's certainly possible to do well by simply gemming agility because you end up with a broader and consequently higher range of potential DPS than if you had gemmed ArP (Nightcrowlers work is a worthwhile read, the section about DPS dispersion is about halfway down his OP). Also, there is a school of thought that values gemming agility on fights were burst DPS is important (like yogg).

Much of your DPS is determined by factors outside of your control (RNG, raid comp, boss strat). Simply because one person does well gemming agility does not mean that you will also do well in that setup--it could be that he's getting chained hysteria, his raid setup caters towards melee DPS instead of caster DPS, and he has a mangle bot (which you may not). His rotation might be 'looser', in which case he has a lower margin of error when it comes to CP generation and he needs the extra crit to maintain a correct rotation. He could have simply gotten lucky, had great RNG and consequently, great DPS. You should be choosing your gems based upon what your raid gives you in terms of composition and strategy--what works for you is more important than what works for someone else.

If you upload your combat logs to world of logs, you can look at a graph that shows you where buffs and debuffs such as rip, rake, and SR fell off, where you were clipping rip/rake, and the DPS dispersion that you experienced on a given fight--all would be useful for you to identify exactly what you can improve on in your gemming and rotation.

Thank you for that Fuz.

At this time, there is only one Feral DPS in our raid, so no such mangle bot exists -- so I pick up that link. I could not tell you 100% if he did or did not have a mangle bot in his raids. That may be the separation right there. I am still "hearing" of cats doing top 3 DPS even without Mangle bots while gemming agility on such fights as Ignis and Hodir. There is still movement to be considered so that extra burst may be what puts them over the top.

I mean, is this the way to rule it :: ArP > Agi in stationary fights such as XT and Agi > ArP in movement fights? Because with that mode of thinking, Agi would be a better base because Ulduar is very movement based (at least for the most part). So, burst is detrimental to a certain end.

Just some thoughts that I had rolling around :)

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Hi, I just had a quick question. Say you have savage roar up with a healthy amount left, you have rake up with 5 combo points and 30 energy and you have rip left with 5 seconds remaining with no mangle debuff. Should you wait the 5 seconds to re-apply rip or 'waste' a combo point on mangle?

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Thank you for that Fuz.

At this time, there is only one Feral DPS in our raid, so no such mangle bot exists -- so I pick up that link. I could not tell you 100% if he did or did not have a mangle bot in his raids. That may be the separation right there. I am still "hearing" of cats doing top 3 DPS even without Mangle bots while gemming agility on such fights as Ignis and Hodir. There is still movement to be considered so that extra burst may be what puts them over the top.

I mean, is this the way to rule it :: ArP > Agi in stationary fights such as XT and Agi > ArP in movement fights? Because with that mode of thinking, Agi would be a better base because Ulduar is very movement based (at least for the most part). So, burst is detrimental to a certain end.

Just some thoughts that I had rolling around :)

Well, its not movement that would cause Agi>ArP (and remember, this is debatable because pretty much every model favors gemming ArP until the trinket soft cap) its a question of what abilities you are able to use as a result of fight mechanics and your guilds particular strategy/raid comp. Iron council is a good example--I basically stand and shred on that fight, but occasionally I have to run out of melee range because of a death rune or lightning nova. Does that mean I should be gemming Agi>ArP? Not necessarily.

Keep in mind that you should always take DPS meters with a grain of salt. There is more to doing good DPS than having good gear and good execution of your rotation--your ability to work with what you're given to maximize your DPS is a much better measure of skill than a comparison with another druid in a different raid environment.

Edit:

@5h0r7y: As a general rule of thumb, you should use mangle and 'waste' the combo point. The +30% to rip damage for 5 ticks will be a larger marginal gain of DPS than waiting so that you don't waste a combo point.

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With 5s left on Rip it's only 3 ticks (Rip ticks every 2s).

I'd probably wait and reapply Rip only if there were less than 2s (= one tick) left on Rip. I do not have any math to back it up as I do not know the dps value of 1 CP.

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First of all, very good guide. But I have 2 questions. First one belongs to your berserk-macro:

5. I suggest you build a makro:

#showtooltip

/cast Tiger's Fury

/cast Berserk

2 weeks ago, I mentioned, that using this macro "erases" tiger's fury buff. So what's better: wasting this buff and gain 60 energy to use berserk or use tiger's fury seperatly (use to full buff) and waiting for energy to use berserk?

Which trinkets should I wear?

The [iTEM]44253[/iTEM] is in most gear setups one of the best trinkets. This will not be a useless investment, as it is an extremely good tanking trinket aswell.

In the second slot you should wear one of the two ArP trinkets mentioned above ([iTEM]40256[/iTEM] or [iTEM]45931[/iTEM])

I always asked myself if i should buy this trinket, I really often read that it's one of BiS, but how do I get enough hit, if I wear [iTEM]44253[/iTEM] and [iTEM]45931[/iTEM]? Should I wear [iTEM]44253[/iTEM] and [iTEM]40256[/iTEM] to become hitcapped?

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What's a good addon that you ferals use to track durations of Mangle/SR, etc? I've been speccing feral just to solo instances to farm for mounts and stuff, but now I'm using it in pug raids for fun, and find the rotation mind-numbingly annoying to keep up with.

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to become hitcapped?

The hit cap is a valid concern, but in a opposite way. The goal is to use as much BiS gear as possible while NOT become overcapped. At least with 10man Ulduar gear this isn't trivial.

Hit/Expertise is quite good, but Agi, Strength and Armor Penetration are better. Although you could argue that it's easier to press the right keys without misses (it is!), you will have enough hit with good gear.

@Kylesa

The feralbynight Addon does a good job, you will find it in this board. I personally use Quartz for tracking buffs/debufs, it's very clear and you can use the same tracker for all other classes and roles. Unfortunately it lacks of beeing able to show your SR buff in the same way.

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What's a good addon that you ferals use to track durations of Mangle/SR, etc? I've been speccing feral just to solo instances to farm for mounts and stuff, but now I'm using it in pug raids for fun, and find the rotation mind-numbingly annoying to keep up with.

I just set up my feral UI this weekend, and I used Satrina buff frames with custom frames specifically for each of the things I want to keep up (SR, Mangle, Rake, Rip) with just-seconds countdowns below each. That way each has a specific, constant place in my UI, with energy and combo points in the same area on my screen.

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What's a good addon that you ferals use to track durations of Mangle/SR, etc? I've been speccing feral just to solo instances to farm for mounts and stuff, but now I'm using it in pug raids for fun, and find the rotation mind-numbingly annoying to keep up with.

I use NeedToKnow to setup nice bars for SR, Mangle, Rip and Rake.

I also use PowerAuras to track missing Faerie Fire and Mangle/Trauma.

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Who says you have to be hitcapped?

Don't wanna have 90 hit rating under the cap.?!

Tun, probably best cat inGame, puts hit in his sockets...

And what about the macro. Using tiger's fury before berserk = waste or better than waiting a little bit and using full tiger's fury buff?

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Tun, probably best cat inGame, puts hit in his sockets...

Sorry, but... no.

It has been stated several times in these forums, that tun makes some remarkable mistakes and his guide has some severe errors as well.

I am sure, there a lots of druids here that will provide better DPS values, if they have access to the same gear and buffs (tun got hysteria chained in nearly every fight)

Concerning the macro: Yes it would be better to make some moves after using TF and then let the energy pool to 90.

But you should make sure that you don't lose uptime of something.

And this is a beginner's guide. I thought cat priority cycle is complex enough, that's why I simplified the use of TF and berserk.

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Regarding feral addons: I personaly prefer Droodfocus to any other buff/debuff tracker (including badkitty).

I use Droodfocus along with FBN.

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I was using Droodfocus, but I found that in Ulduar the CP display became a solid, white block. I am unsure if this only occurs for me, but it happened every time I entered Ulduar. I switched to FBN, which I found to be very customizable for my needs.

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I use Inline Aura to track the cds and seconds left on Mangle, Rake, Rip, Savage Roar, Tiger's Fury, etc...

It displays numbers right on the actual ability icon on the hotkey bar and is, thus, very minimalist.

Also, to the person asking about why hit cap is important...

Hit cap is vital to good dps. Not being hit capped means more chances to MISS, etc.. A miss = lower dps. Get it?

I'm hit capped and I am not using hit gems or enchants. Most cat gear has enough hit that I'm always OVER the hit cap, before a Draenei is in my party.

I gem all agility, and I'm usually pulling top 1-3 dps in my 25 mans vs. Hodir, XT, Emalon, and Vesax, etc...

Pictures for proof here:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r93/sidrakin/wow%20things/dpvsvesax.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r93/sidrakin/wow%20things/dpvshodir.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r93/sidrakin/wow%20things/catvsemalon.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r93/sidrakin/wow%20things/dpvsxt.jpg

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Also, to the person asking about why hit cap is important...

Hit cap is vital to good dps. Not being hit capped means more chances to MISS, etc.. A miss = lower dps. Get it?

This is incorrect. Hit is good, but agility/armor pen are better.

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This is incorrect. Hit is good, but agility/armor pen are better.

It's not incorrect that hit cap is good. Hit is especially important for applying Rip and Rake, and it seems like most cat theorycrafters ignore or don't realize this.

Armor pen and agility are fantastic and I did not say they are better or worse than hit. I said nothing of excluding any of them.

I just shared what I do and how much dps I do with that and why.;)

Logic, ftw.

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This is incorrect. Hit is good, but agility/armor pen are better.

Weighing raw stats against each other is only a level playing field when intangibles like a missed Rip or dodged Rake are accounted for.

Hit rating is useful for avoiding missed white attacks and specials like Shred, yes. But it's huge for applying the crucial debuffs of Mangle, Rip, and Rake. Every time you miss one of those specials, you've just wasted a GCD to reapply that should've been a Shred.

In that situation, how is 20 armor pen rating better than the 20 hit rating you'd need to avoid the missed debuff completely?

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Weighing raw stats against each other is only a level playing field when intangibles like a missed Rip or dodged Rake are accounted for.

Hit rating is useful for avoiding missed white attacks and specials like Shred, yes. But it's huge for applying the crucial debuffs of Mangle, Rip, and Rake. Every time you miss one of those specials, you've just wasted a GCD to reapply that should've been a Shred.

In that situation, how is 20 armor pen rating better than the 20 hit rating you'd need to avoid the missed debuff completely?

20 armor pen on the other 99% or whatever of your attacks that did land is more damage than the less than 1% of the time 20 hit rating would make you hit rather than miss. Tons of simulations and in game data have shown that 20 arpen or agility (depending on your stats to pick which) is better than 20 hit most of the time. Countering that with out some sort of actual data, math, combat logs, or anything is a lot like saying people should stack hit because God says so.

Edit: Missing mangle, rake, rip or whatever isn't intangible and is accounted for by rawr, tossk, FBN, Simulcraft, and every other model. Intangibles would be the adverse effect on your dps of how a miss demoralizes you as a player and causes you to make silly mistakes like how playing my hunter in BT back in the day I would flip out on vent when feign death would resist against gorefiend every single time I got to play my hunter after finally getting 4t6. That's an intangible effect of missing. One second of downtime on mangle isn't intangible.

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Hit rating is useful for avoiding missed white attacks and specials like Shred, yes. But it's huge for applying the crucial debuffs of Mangle, Rip, and Rake. Every time you miss one of those specials, you've just wasted a GCD to reapply that should've been a Shred.

This is incorrect. You don't tend to waste a GCD unless you're in unlimited energy mode, which is typically only in berserk. So hit is better if you're berserked, but that's 15 seconds out of every 180 seconds total.

The rest of the time, you don't waste a GCD most of the time as you're operating at or close to an energy deficit. In other words, you're waiting on doing that attack anyway, so all it means is that you aren't applying the rip or rake as fast as you could. That's not optimal, but it's not 'missing a shred'. It's delaying a shred, at worst.

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In that situation, how is 20 armor pen rating better than the 20 hit rating you'd need to avoid the missed debuff completely?

Because for the rest of the fight that you didn't miss the debuff, that 20 armor pen was helping you more then the 20 hit.

Kitties are not GCD locked in our dps cycle. CP gen and energy are what limit and determine what kind of cycle we strive for. That 20 armor pen would apply to all of your non bleed attacks for the whole fight, while that 20 hit to not miss ( I'll assume like you did even that the 20hit is all you need to cap hit for the sake of this argument ) has maybe lost you over the course of the fight 1-3 OOC procs ( I am being ridiculously generous here, missing even 1 is rare that close to cap ) and maybe a grand total of 2-3 seconds of debuff down time.

Primal precision and energy refunded from a special attack make it so that a miss / dodge / parry is for most intents and purposes simply a gcd loss to reuse the last attack that missed, and if it was a finisher its 20% energy lost from the cost of the finisher which just for example is only 6 energy for Rip.

Now does this mean I think hit is useless, definitely not, but the goal is to never gem or enchant for it, and to simply use pieces that are good due to armpen / agi that also have hit and expertise. This way you get close to the caps while still gearing for the desired stats.

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20 armor pen on the other 99% or whatever of your attacks that did land is more damage than the less than 1% of the time 20 hit rating would make you hit rather than miss. Tons of simulations and in game data have shown that 20 arpen or agility (depending on your stats to pick which) is better than 20 hit most of the time. Countering that with out some sort of actual data, math, combat logs, or anything is a lot like saying people should stack hit because God says so.

Edit: Missing mangle, rake, rip or whatever isn't intangible and is accounted for by rawr, tossk, FBN, Simulcraft, and every other model. Intangibles would be the adverse effect on your dps of how a miss demoralizes you as a player and causes you to make silly mistakes like how playing my hunter in BT back in the day I would flip out on vent when feign death would resist against gorefiend every single time I got to play my hunter after finally getting 4t6. That's an intangible effect of missing. One second of downtime on mangle isn't intangible.

I think the argument about gemming/enchanting for hit vs. ArP is moot because so much cat gear comes with enough hit to put you over or near the cap.

The more interesting discussion for cats is really gemming/enchanting for ArP vs. Agility.

I like this statement in this thread regarding that:

"As far as the current theory is concerned, once you reach the trinket soft cap on ArP (556), you want to start gemming agility (while maintaining the soft cap, of course). It's certainly possible to do well by simply gemming agility because you end up with a broader and consequently higher range of potential DPS than if you had gemmed ArP (Nightcrowlers work is a worthwhile read, the section about DPS dispersion is about halfway down his OP). Also, there is a school of thought that values gemming agility on fights were burst DPS is important (like yogg)."

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Because for the rest of the fight that you didn't miss the debuff, that 20 armor pen was helping you more then the 20 hit.

Kitties are not GCD locked in our dps cycle. CP gen and energy are what limit and determine what kind of cycle we strive for. That 20 armor pen would apply to all of your non bleed attacks for the whole fight, while that 20 hit to not miss ( I'll assume like you did even that the 20hit is all you need to cap hit for the sake of this argument ) has maybe lost you over the course of the fight 1-3 OOC procs ( I am being ridiculously generous here, missing even 1 is rare that close to cap ) and maybe a grand total of 2-3 seconds of debuff down time.

Primal precision and energy refunded from a special attack make it so that a miss / dodge / parry is for most intents and purposes simply a gcd loss to reuse the last attack that missed, and if it was a finisher its 20% energy lost from the cost of the finisher which just for example is only 6 energy for Rip.

Granted, druids have ways to recoup the "wasted" Rip miss and ArP as a stat is helping for the rest of the fight. The reason I commented in the first place is that people often automatically parrot 'x stat' > hit without considering things like the fight length or moving out of range.

Simulators are fantastic and I'm a big big fan of Rawr, but even Rawr cannot fully account for how much it hurts to miss a Rip as soon as XT's heart drops or missing a Rip .2 seconds before running away from Emalon towards an overcharged add.

There are some situations where either the fight is extremely short or where your window of hit-it-like-you-mean-it is so narrow that missing becomes much more impactful than a simulator can extrapolate.

Now does this mean I think hit is useless, definitely not, but the goal is to never gem or enchant for it, and to simply use pieces that are good due to armpen / agi that also have hit and expertise. This way you get close to the caps while still gearing for the desired stats.

I agree completely. Gemming for hit is a waste of item budget.

However, keeping an eye on your hit rating and utilizing pieces like Grim Toll, Cindershard Ring, and Fluxing Energy Coils will allow you to maintain the best of both worlds and then stack ArP or Agi to your heart's content. :)

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Granted, druids have ways to recoup the "wasted" Rip miss and ArP as a stat is helping for the rest of the fight. The reason I commented in the first place is that people often automatically parrot 'x stat' > hit without considering things like the fight length or moving out of range.

Simulators are fantastic and I'm a big big fan of Rawr, but even Rawr cannot fully account for how much it hurts to miss a Rip as soon as XT's heart drops or missing a Rip .2 seconds before running away from Emalon towards an overcharged add.

There are some situations where either the fight is extremely short or where your window of hit-it-like-you-mean-it is so narrow that missing becomes much more impactful than a simulator can extrapolate.

This is all very true, but this forum is about min-maxing to get every ounce of possible DPS. Hit is not the stat that will deliver the most bang for the buck, and thus why it is devalued from a max DPS perspective. Now, this would be very different if more fights included mechanics like Emalon, XT, etc. but the reality is they are in the minority.

The secondary argument to these kinds of fights are that we build secondary and tertiary sets just for this very reason. Yogg definitely requires more burst than sustained DPS, at least until phase 3 (depending on how one's guild handles phase 3) which would value hit and agility far more than ArP. In this case a secondary set becomes more optimal than gearing for hit in just one cat set.

The point has been made that hit and expertise are not bad stats by any stretch of the word. However, mathematics and in game testing have proven that they should never actively be sought after. As Nytkin mentioned, they will often come by default when grabbing Agility/ArP gear.

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