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Ashuko

Guild Progression - Questions, Concerns...

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I can't imagine that your hunters actually want VK or Perdition's. They ought to be after Fang of the Faceless, MH Hakkari, Brutality Blade, and Core Hound Tooth. Your guild seems to be at a point where some or all of those should be available to the hunters unless you have awful luck with weapons.

They don't. I shouldn't have listed all of the main pre-BWL epic weapons outta Ony/MC, but I did.

;)

FoF/MH Hakkari - not sure how much they know about those (in the "wow these are viable for us" sense).

Will inquire with the hunters and find out! As for first dibs...I think the loot list on cross-class items is really a good idea. My way for implementing this will be simple: just a new forum thread.

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Yep forum threads work well ashuko. We also have one built into our DKP system to make it somewhat easier to see whos where in the line for various items.

I like the concept of x drops to y class first. Then opening it up. Provides the opportunity for people who are at the top or saving points to do so without permanantly locking loot to certain classes. Or you could allow people with a certain amount of standing/veterency/contribution/points earned to gain priority off class over people lower in whichever method you prefer to track that are in the priority class.

Historically i have seen various classes get very upset at the idea of 'uber item' for their class going to someone not of their class. A good example is azuresong mageblade and paladins. Sure it was arguably better for the raid to give that to casters but at some point it should cease to be important. Hopefully blizzard implements enough rewards on similar tiers that not everyone feels the need to progress from item a to b to c. But that instead we can give 1-5 items to class x then open it up for anyone who has points and wishes to buy an item the opportunity. (or new content comes out faster than the epics/week formula allows everyone to get uber item anyway)

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FoF/MH Hakkari - not sure how much they know about those (in the "wow these are viable for us" sense).

Those are actually better for hunters than the BB/CHT combo but they don't seem to drop very often. Your rogues probably won't care much about ZG weapons since you're in BWL. It works out pretty well, rogues get the nice new weapons from BWL and hunters get the ZG weapons (which just happen to be the best for hunters).

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You might want to look around for a site that already has done a priority listing that you like, its much harder for the lootwhores in the guild to argue with someone else's site than with you.

Why do you think I posted here to kick this whole thing off??

;)

Something else I'm pondering here...you guys are mentioning drops that will happen "deeper" in BWL than where we're at currently. So this problem is just not going to go away. I'm wondering how worried I need to be about things like the Drake Fang Talisman.

I think at the very least we need a list. Perhaps some sort of prioritizing (like 1:1 for hunters/rogues or 2:1 rogues/hunters) is a good idea...our guild will have to decide that sort of thing as a group though.

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

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When it comes to "forcing" specs, I agree with the way you phrased it in your first post -- it's really more a matter of asking them to go resto. For now. "For now" being the key.

For the majority of guilds out there, including the OP's, you are never done with content. Respec PvE this week for vael. A month later for Nef. Again for huhu....

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There's still a period of farming before you get back to working on hard bosses in a lot of cases. Once you've killed Vael, there's nothing you shouldn't kill after a couple tries until Nef. Once you kill Nef, you have the first half of AQ40 to learn before you hit bosses that are harder than him.

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Why do you think I posted here to kick this whole thing off??

;)

Something else I'm pondering here...you guys are mentioning drops that will happen "deeper" in BWL than where we're at currently. So this problem is just not going to go away. I'm wondering how worried I need to be about things like the Drake Fang Talisman.

I think at the very least we need a list. Perhaps some sort of prioritizing (like 1:1 for hunters/rogues or 2:1 rogues/hunters) is a good idea...our guild will have to decide that sort of thing as a group though.

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

Hakkari/FoF = +2% crit, +56 AP

BB/CHT = +2% crit, +38 AP

No detailed math required.

For the majority of guilds out there, including the OP's, you are never done with content. Respec PvE this week for vael. A month later for Nef. Again for huhu....

This is a good point and something that I overlooked in offering advice.

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Shalas, you've raised another big question that a lot of guilds at our point in the "progression cycle" are asking: skip AQ40? Head straight to Naxx??

It's certainly gotten some discussion amongst guildies for us.

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Hakkari/FoF = +2% crit, +56 AP

BB/CHT = +2% crit, +38 AP

No detailed math required.

QED.

I've got nothing to say.

:D

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Yeah. You never, ever want to have uncertainty or unpleasant surprises while you're staring at the sweet loot sitting in the corpse. Let people hash out their differences in the abstract in a forum thread, well before the item ever drops. It's a lot easier to be reasonable in that setting, and then if the item does drop, people will know what to expect.

Mind you, the Naxx discussions are going to be flat out awful :(

The other advantage of a wishlist is that people will pass if they know someone is jones-ing for a certain item and they can set up side arrangements. We made a deal with the hunters that they'd pass on the first couple Drakefang talismans if we passed on the first couple Prestor's off Nef.

Oh they must feel just great about how that deal is working out for them.

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I think at the very least we need a list. Perhaps some sort of prioritizing (like 1:1 for hunters/rogues or 2:1 rogues/hunters) is a good idea...our guild will have to decide that sort of thing as a group though.

Regarding the FoF/MH Hakkari combo - anyone have the math to back up the idea that they are better than the Brutality Blade/CHT combo?

That seems like something you should discuss within your guild. If people understand why another class will better use a given item, they shouldn't have problems passing it to them. It's difficult to put exact numbers on how good cross class items are for various classes.

FoF/MH Hakkari - 56 AP, 2% crit

BB/CHT - 20 AP, 9 Agi, 2% crit, 9 sta, 9 str which works out to be 38 AP, ~2.2% crit for a hunter

So the ZG combo has 18 AP more and ~0.2% less crit. The difference between the two is small, but I'd prefer FoF/MH Hakkari. Since rogues don't want MH Hakkari and probably prefer Perdition's/CHT to FoF it should work out well. The BWL weapons of potential interest to a hunter (CTS, Dragonfang, Doom's Edge) are all worse than the MC/ZG options in my opinion and should be melee priority.

Of course, it also depends on your guild. My guild doesn't run ZG often and when we do the loot is just rolled on. That makes it pretty difficult to aim for those weapons.

Edit: Way too slow it seems. Plenty of people beat me to the math.

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Something else I'm pondering here...you guys are mentioning drops that will happen "deeper" in BWL than where we're at currently. So this problem is just not going to go away.

Nope, in fact it gets worse. Just wait until AQ40 or Naxxramas when you have to cope with "token" items to get your set pieces (and tokens can be used by multiple classes). There was a lot of discussion on this site in another thread about what various guilds were doing to cope with the cross class loot. I won't rehash the conversation, but it's worth looking at.

Classes and individual players need to learn how to play nice with each other. If your raid group is combative about stuff that drops every other week, you're in for a miserable experience. It's a game kids, learn to enjoy the company of your peers and the sense of accomplishment from "killing dargons on the internets".

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Nope, in fact it gets worse. Just wait until AQ40 or Naxxramas when you have to cope with "token" items to get your set pieces (and tokens can be used by multiple classes). There was a lot of discussion on this site in another thread about what various guilds were doing to cope with the cross class loot. I won't rehash the conversation, but it's worth looking at.

Classes and individual players need to learn how to play nice with each other. If your raid group is combative about stuff that drops every other week, you're in for a miserable experience. It's a game kids, learn to enjoy the company of your peers and the sense of accomplishment from "killing dargons on the internets".

Fortunately we aren't very combative (quite the contrary, actually) to begin with; the value in having this conversation now is that we'll hopefully continue to have a very supportive culture even when temptations become greater.

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As a hunter, I've been aiming for either OH Hakkari/FotF to go with MH Hakkari. FotF has only dropped once for us since ZG opened (rogue) and OH I think twice. FotF for a PVE situation is slightly better since it's 1h instead of MH/OH and can be switched back and forth to match with Silithid Claw (1c 30 AP). Any hunter looking to improve their melee needs to look for passive stats that have considerable impact on Ranged DPS. The 16 Agi weapons are good too (last 3 DFB's have been passed to hunters), but I still think the crit/ap weapons hold a slight advantage for straight dps. However, the agi weapons also tend to have other stats (STA) that help indirectly.

For a 2h, most hunters end game go for Barb, which technically is a very minor downgrade in DPS but offers far better survivability and melee options.

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To op:

Gearing depends totally on your loot tables. At this point we've new nef-farmer guild. (3 kills behind) And Raggy killing from start of February, we've gotten 0 Brutality Blades for an example. 2 viskags and 1 maladath. Our sword rogues are pretty desperate and I would like them to get those even subpar swords. Few have looted CotBD's and a lot has changed to daggers thou. IMO first few "good" drops should go to main class. Item prioritizing is also recommended, give loot to players who need it _seriously_ .

Vael transition goes smooth if your tanks are not sleeping. Every time tank dies to ba and next one turns vael - rest tanks pause just for a second to make sure that that tank has Vael under control. Healing on Vael also depends on BA sequences and raid makeup. Normally we got 3 shammys mt healing, 2 shammys keeping few tanks up who dont have poh-healer. 6 groups with PoH and 1 group which has a druid healer. Rest 2-3 druids healing mt and priests dropping occasional flash heals/shields to mt. If poh priests are starting to die, druids try to cover raid dmg a bit more and people start to use fire prot pots. I'm also just hitting 1 button (arcane missiles) through out the fight and swapping people from groups who have no poh/their priest has died, to "empty" spots on poh groups.

Also, went thru BWL with 2 resto druids, 1 balance, 2 feral. Three of them with us normally.

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Nope, in fact it gets worse. Just wait until AQ40 or Naxxramas when you have to cope with "token" items to get your set pieces (and tokens can be used by multiple classes). There was a lot of discussion on this site in another thread about what various guilds were doing to cope with the cross class loot. I won't rehash the conversation, but it's worth looking at.

Maybe I missed it in that conversation. Was just curious if anybody was trying to argue "Having your tanks stay up is the most important thing in a raid. Since rogues share tokens with warriors, loot priority on Tier 3 tokens should default to Tanks first, Rogues second, dps Warriors third."

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I think you've gotten some fantastic advice in this thread. The only thing I'd add is to re-emphasize the idea of making your guild figure out their loot by themselves. As stated earlier in this thread the choice of who loots what is a problem that only gets harder with progress. Ramming a short-sighted priority list down your people's throats may temporarily solve the problem, but it will simply create a hostile and negative environment when people find that it doesn't let them meet their goals.

As an example, if you let rogues get first pick on CHT, you may get drama when a sword rogue loots it over a hunter that had been saving for it for a while. Regardless of whether this would be a great choice for either, blanket absolute priority rules often have wrinkles/loopholes and cause more drama than they solve.

Instead, the idea of active dialogue on your forum, before the loot drops is a fantastic one. You definitely want to avoid the unpleasant surprises and arguments when the corpse is dead - it really detracts from the euphoria of the kill. The benefit you will reap is that your guild will learn to tackle the hard compromises of smart looting on their own - and this skill is scaleable to any level of dungeon. The end result is your people will be better educated on the needs of the raid as a whole and their competing classes.

Yes, you won't end up with clean looking rules like CHT->Rogue. More likely you'll end up with people figuring that the first Dark iron ring should go to Bob because he's the MT, while Joe will pass on one even though he's a war because he'd like one of the next Quick Strike Rings for his DPS provided the rogues agree, etc. Yes it's more complicated, but your guild will be stronger for it - and they'll love you for giving them an active role in defining the outcome of loot compromises that directly affect them.

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I think you've gotten some fantastic advice in this thread. The only thing I'd add is to re-emphasize the idea of making your guild figure out their loot by themselves. As stated earlier in this thread the choice of who loots what is a problem that only gets harder with progress. Ramming a short-sighted priority list down your people's throats may temporarily solve the problem, but it will simply create a hostile and negative environment when people find that it doesn't let them meet their goals.

Excellent summation, and this is exactly what I want to do. At the end of the day, this is about instilling a specific type of culture rather than imposing our will (or any approximation thereof). What we want is a supportive culture that shares a common, progression-oriented goal set. Individual rewards ultimately need to be an undercurrent; a secondary goal to the main one: seeing new bosses drop.

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For healing, I've found that:

If you have concentration aura, 1 priest or 1 druid should have 0 problem keeping up a group with very minimal FR on Vael.

That leaves your Paladins to keep the MT/offtanks up.

The biggest thing to realize is that your tanks make or break this encounter - if your raid is getting breathed on, Tanks/positioning aren't going perfectly.

We use a staggered start to heavy hate gen from our offtanks. DPS goes full on from about 4 seconds after the MT engages, and there's about 5-10 seconds between each tank shifting from autoattack to HS/Sunder spam. The only people who ever have to worry about aggro are the Rogues, so long as they vanish just before the 1st tank transition it isn't a problem.

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Here's another one for everyone to contemplate. Raid attendance. What have you done to keep people coming back? We all know that there are a million motivations for attendance - some people want loot, some people want new content, some people want to hang with their friends.

Something consistent, however, is that you get these lulls where you're farming one instance (say, MC) and you're JUST starting a new instance (say, BWL) and it's not going so well...people don't smell blood in the water so they decide to stay away and let others do the "heavy lifting", so to speak.

So EJ, what have you done to keep people coming out?

Others, what have you done?

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Excellent summation, and this is exactly what I want to do. At the end of the day, this is about instilling a specific type of culture rather than imposing our will (or any approximation thereof). What we want is a supportive culture that shares a common, progression-oriented goal set. Individual rewards ultimately need to be an undercurrent; a secondary goal to the main one: seeing new bosses drop.

My guild was formed as a sort of patchwork whole out of wisps and tatters of other guilds that were fragmenting or just inane. Faced with the full quagmire of issues listed above and a wide assortment of asynchronious guildies, our GM basically got on vent one day and said,

"Alright, my kidlets. Our goal with regards to pve progression, itemization, social maturity, pvp advancement and guild consolidation is basically going to revolve around finding out just how drunk we can be while seeing at least 1 purple item a week. Quantitative experimentation is a wonderful thing in all aspects of life. Go."

It's worked out wondefully since.

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...finding out just how drunk we can be while seeing at least 1 purple item a week.

Must've been at the beginning of MC. I remember the very first BOE that dropped. The guild went crazy. Amazing how priorities change. Now MC is about "how quickly can we enter and exit with a full clear"...

So...any ideas regarding my post above about attendance?

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We generally don't have serious problems so I don't know what to say. On occasion, we'll have some holes to fill on the test server or whatever, but nothing compared to other, smaller guilds I'm sure. And when it does happen, a few less-than-subtle posts on our private forum typically stirs things up.

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And when it does happen, a few less-than-subtle posts on our private forum typically stirs things up.

Lemme take a stab: "Show up for progression or don't show up at all."

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