Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Bloody_sorcerer

Rawr DPSDK version 2.3.6 released 1/18/10

229 posts in this topic

Ok... There is definitely some funny-business going on with your character. Looks like the problem is in the talents. With your current Blood DPS build that I see on the armory, the stats are as you describe them. Even on my latest local build. As soon as I clear them out, or apply a couple different tank builds, the numbers are more reasonable. So something in the way I'm processing the talents are making for really weird numbers.

Do you want to write up the issue on the Rawr Issue Tracker or should I?

Those were from my blood tanking build, not DPS. So, basically I am breaking the program somewhere, awesome. So my blood DPS build breaks it too? That leads me to believe that it is a problem with a blood talent, maybe one of the proc talents? Procs seem to be a bit screwy in 23 in general.

It would be awesome if you could do that write up. =)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It would be awesome if Blood Boil could be included in the DK rotation for the DPSDK version.

[Raises Eyebrow]

... for why?

Are you trying to figure out your best DPS set for Onyxia Whelps? With T9 2pc I can't really see you using Blood Boil in many other situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[Raises Eyebrow]

... for why?

Are you trying to figure out your best DPS set for Onyxia Whelps? With T9 2pc I can't really see you using Blood Boil in many other situations.

Blood Boil > Blood Strike for DW Unholy when Desolation is up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any particular reason that [iTEM]Inscribed Ametrine[/iTEM] is coming up as a fractionally higher rating when socketing an item with a yellow slot that has +Str socket bonus?

Example considering only the gem in question and the socket bonus of +4 STR:

Bloodbath Girdle + [iTEM]Bold Cardinal Ruby[/iTEM] > (20*2.89) = 57.8

Bloodbath Girdle + [iTEM]Inscribed Ametrine[/iTEM] > ((14*2.89)+(10*1.56)) = 56.06

Follows suit to show that Gemming for +STR wins, but the most recent version of Rawr doesn't seem to agree. I did not notice it doing this a month or so ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rawr does not use any stat weight system internally in order to calculate the DPS benefit of a given item. Instead, it uses a closed-form mathematical model to calculate DPS for your current gear, the DPS of your current gear with a selected slot empty, and the DPS of your current gear with every available item in that slot. The difference between DPS with that slot empty and that slot full is then assigned to that item for your current gear setup. As a result, Rawr is able to dynamically determine DPS benefits with a much higher granularity than traditional stat weighting systems.

Basically, it's telling you the inscribed ametrine is marginally higher DPS because it is marginally higher DPS for your character with your current gear, raid buffs, and rotation options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotcha. I will wait patiently for my last piece for 4pt9 and for your GoD updates and see where I stand :) Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rawr does not use any stat weight system internally in order to calculate the DPS benefit of a given item. Instead, it uses a closed-form mathematical model to calculate DPS for your current gear, the DPS of your current gear with a selected slot empty, and the DPS of your current gear with every available item in that slot. The difference between DPS with that slot empty and that slot full is then assigned to that item for your current gear setup. As a result, Rawr is able to dynamically determine DPS benefits with a much higher granularity than traditional stat weighting systems.

Basically, it's telling you the inscribed ametrine is marginally higher DPS because it is marginally higher DPS for your character with your current gear, raid buffs, and rotation options.

When Rawr evaluates DPS for hit (or more properly, for miss), is it assuming you'll reapply the disease as soon as the next rune is available or when the strike comes back into rotation?

When I use a gear setup that's significantly under the hit cap and a non-GoDisease blood spec, Rawr still strongly prefers crit gems to hit gems and I just can't seem to understand why this would be the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When Rawr evaluates DPS for hit (or more properly, for miss), is it assuming you'll reapply the disease as soon as the next rune is available or when the strike comes back into rotation?

When I use a gear setup that's significantly under the hit cap and a non-GoDisease blood spec, Rawr still strongly prefers crit gems to hit gems and I just can't seem to understand why this would be the case.

It handles hit and expertise by repeating all rune-based abilities without cooldowns until they hit (which is actually handled by increasing the ability's effective GCD usage by a percentage dependent on hit and expertise) and by reducing damage done by runic power dumps or rune abilities with a CD by a percentage, as these resources are not effectively refunded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When Rawr evaluates DPS for hit (or more properly, for miss), is it assuming you'll reapply the disease as soon as the next rune is available or when the strike comes back into rotation?

When I use a gear setup that's significantly under the hit cap and a non-GoDisease blood spec, Rawr still strongly prefers crit gems to hit gems and I just can't seem to understand why this would be the case.

I have to Agree with Evilhacker here, there is something worth investigating concerning the value of Hit Rating under cap. In one gear scenario (as 51/0/20 BloodDPS) where my hit Rating is significantly below cap (hit rating : 114) , Rawr still value 1 Critical Rating Higher then 1 Hit Rating.

While translating the exact same Character's Stats/Buffs/Rotation under Kahorie's DK simulator, it gives me a completely different weight for Hit Rating Under Cap, making it nearly twice as much valuable as Critical Rating and putting it above any other Stats.

AttackPower | 1

Strength | 2,94

Agility | 2,03

CritRating | 2,87

HasteRating | 2,23

ArmorPenetrationRating | 3,29

ExpertiseRating | 3,61

BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 4,97

SpellHitRating | 0,56

After spell hit cap | 0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm getting a bit of an anomaly in the DPS modeling of my Unholy spec w/ Improved Unholy Presence. Previously (I am unsure what version of Rawr I was using... but I do know that it was fairly recent) it was a clear cut DPS improvement using Unholy Presence over Blood Presence. My gear has not changed, just updated Rawr, and now it actually hinders my DPS readout to be in Unholy Presence. The haste element is displaying properly, but I'm wondering if the rune cooldown modeling is broken now.

To my understanding, and in practice (both in solo dummy, group dummy and raids) I have noted that Unholy Presence does, in fact, grant higher single-target DPS... until a reasonable haste threshold is reached. Well, my haste is a mere 133 in the gear I use to sim and previously in simming I needed to be at nearly twice that amount before selecting Blood Presence broke even.

Just thought I'd share that little tidbid in case anyone else has been experiencing the same thing or if someone wants to look into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you manually reducing rotation duration by 1 second per rune refresh period when using IUP? It currently doesn't handle that facet of IUP intelligently, although it's something I'd like to add in when the rotation system gets revamped (which it needs to be).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It handles hit and expertise by repeating all rune-based abilities without cooldowns until they hit (which is actually handled by increasing the ability's effective GCD usage by a percentage dependent on hit and expertise) and by reducing damage done by runic power dumps or rune abilities with a CD by a percentage, as these resources are not effectively refunded.

So is what you are saying for example if your miss chance with a particular ability was 10%. Are you saying that instead of a 1.5s GCD, for that ability your GCD would equal 1.65? I can't come up with a reason off the top of my head why this doesn't make sense for a modeled fight of sufficient length.

Where it is a cause for concern is that it does not generally line up with some of the other simulation tools currently available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So is what you are saying for example if your miss chance with a particular ability was 10%. Are you saying that instead of a 1.5s GCD, for that ability your GCD would equal 1.65? I can't come up with a reason off the top of my head why this doesn't make sense for a modeled fight of sufficient length.

Where it is a cause for concern is that it does not generally line up with some of the other simulation tools currently available.

Yeah, that's the general idea. I'm not sure why its value is differing so much from that of the simulator, I'll look into it when I get a chance. I suspect it may come down to something as granular as rune cooldowns and which get used, but I'm not really sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wondering, is there a way to make rawr a priority system?

For blood rotation basically you apply diseases and pest., so I'm a little confused about how to put that in rawr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just wondering, is there a way to make rawr a priority system?

For blood rotation basically you apply diseases and pest., so I'm a little confused about how to put that in rawr

Enter it as your steady-state ability usage; for GoD blood, it would be 2 death strikes, 1 pestilence, and 7 heart strikes. I'm in the process of thoroughly redesigning the current rotation system into both something more intuitive for entering rotation/priority systems as well as a rotation-optimizing system for ability usage optimization for a given talent spec and gearing that could also potentially discover new rotation dynamics previously unexplored. Additionally, the module's capabilities will be expanded to include AOE situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, is there a reason the haste meta is best for Unholy by such a large margin? My haste is low, right around 200 using a BP spec, but I would assume a permanent 3% crit damage on my current ~35% unbuffed crit chance is going to do a lot more dps than 500 haste every minute or so, especially considering the 4pc t9 bonus.

Am I wrong, or does the sim just not accurately account for the 3% crit damage? Or is ~15% haste plus the extra dps gems from not having to socket 2 blues really worth more?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am I wrong, or does the sim just not accurately account for the 3% crit damage? Or is ~15% haste plus the extra dps gems from not having to socket 2 blues really worth more?

There must be something wrong with DPS DK Rawr for you, since my Unholy rawr file says RED is best in general (which it is), since the RED justs need a nightmare tear (note the 21 crit meta is like 1-5 dps weaker).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There must be something wrong with DPS DK Rawr for you, since my Unholy rawr file says RED is best in general (which it is), since the RED justs need a nightmare tear (note the 21 crit meta is like 1-5 dps weaker).

What kind of buffs are you using while determining that? I personally just run with self-buffs (HoW, Crypt Fever, Ebon Plague and I think Flask of the North), because I can never be certain how my raid buffs are going to look (Usually the core buffs like Kings and GoTW are available, but others are variable), so maybe it thinks unbuffed, the haste is worth more?

Could also have something to do with the length of the fight as well, I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What kind of buffs are you using while determining that? I personally just run with self-buffs (HoW, Crypt Fever, Ebon Plague and I think Flask of the North), because I can never be certain how my raid buffs are going to look (Usually the core buffs like Kings and GoTW are available, but others are variable), so maybe it thinks unbuffed, the haste is worth more?

Could also have something to do with the length of the fight as well, I suppose.

I got my character confused with the Ret, I have the same result. DK Rawr is ignoring the 3% crit damage, so that is why it thinks Thundering is better (which it is not).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DK Rawr is ignoring the 3% crit damage, so that is why it thinks Thundering is better (which it is not).

It looks like the DPSDK model is modeling the 3% crit damage, at least as of revision 42210. However, since none of the commits since 2.2.27 address this, I assume that the handling of this has not been changed.

A simple way to determine if this is the case is to compare the values of Chaotic Skyflare Diamond and Enigmatic Skyflare Diamond. Both offer 21 crit rating but only CSD offers the additional 3% crit damage. If the 3% crit damage is being ignored, the valuation should be identical.

(If you want another way to prove this, create a new meta gem with only 21 crit rating. Verify that it has the same valuation as Enigmatic Skyflare Diamond. Now add 3% crit damage to that gem. Verify that the rating has changed.)

Please note that I have not verified that the crit damage bonus is being modeled correctly, only that it is being modeled somehow.

This could be tied to an issue with the base Unholy rotation defined in the model. It seems to be trying to fit about 11s of abilities into 10s. The only way to achieve this is to stack a lot of haste so this may account for the overvaluation of haste. Removing the 0.5 HoW from the rotation seemed to return the values to some amount of normalcy. This however only made TSD slightly better than CSD/RED instead of vastly better. (Defining a custom rotation that accurately reflects what you will do for a given rotation or two may provide the proper behavior.)

I have not observed this issue when modeling Frost or Blood rotations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 3% crit modifier has been working for some time now, barring some major changes that I'm unaware of. Model development is pretty stagnant right now; I'm working on revamping the rotation system to something more graceful, but it's requiring some pretty major refactoring and I've been rather busy with schoolwork. However, I feel that in spite of this, the model is still up-to-date and accurate, just not as user-friendly as I'd like it to be.

Basically, I'm working on switching the model over to a more dynamic system with the intent of having some sort of rotation/priority optimization algorithm to determine the maximum DPS rotation/priority system for a given spec with a given gear setup. In addition to this, I want to be able to account for most common boss mechanics, such as AOE situations, time spent not on the boss, what's best to do at range, things like that.

Anyways, I'd like a bit of user input on this. If I converted the model to only use priority systems, how would people feel about this? If you could have fixed rotations OR priority systems, which would you prefer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some specs work in a priority system only, while others will have a fixed rotation. The truth is that even specs with a fixed rotation can be performed in a priority system. So answering you question, if only one can be implemented, a priority system will be able to be used in any spec, thus a better choice.

If its possible, having both options would be appreciated, as some specs like blood without GoD have not a real advantage in using a priority system because its fixed rotation is simple and efficient. And even in this case i would like to see the difference RAWR would give for blood (non-GoD) in rotation vs. priority.

Edit: Punctuation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.