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Liandra

Raiding with ferals, moonkin, shadowpriests, etc

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A BWL geared tank is allready vastly superior to any bear

Given the number of posts that give good evidence to the contrary, it would be nice if you could post some sort of evidence for your view on this.

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Competent warriors are using imp shield block to block 60-80% of incoming strikes, which translates directly into a 60-80% reduction in crushing blows. That alone I'd expect to catch up with bear forms extra mitigation in any 10-second period.

A tier 2 warrior will have what... 15% parry?

We have a great feral druid in the guild, epicly geared and he is basically the 7th tank who can also heal. Druids do have a role, good ones offer the flexibility to effectly sub out a healer for a tank, or sub a healer for DPS (not by kitty form, but by filling in the tanking role so a DPS warrior can kill stuff)

That said, armor is only one part of avoidance, and its the only part druids have an advantage on. AQ level tanks can be running over 45% combined parry and dodge, lots of blocking and other tools.

On another note, Paladins either side will remove the inequality between shadow priests on different factions, it'll be interesting to see the consequence of that. On horde-side they just can't sustain the damage long enough to be competitive.

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Can you quantify this in numbers?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=781672&p=1&tmp=1#post781672

What's a Bear druid's strengths?

High AC?

AC reduction is hard capped at 75%, 16,500 for even level mobs, 17265 for level 63 mobs.

( Here's a warrior with 15.5K AC, no Naxxramas gear - http://www.chevhell.com/wow/acwhat2.jpg ) Only 2k away from max AC. Doesn't seem like a huge selling point anymore.

High Stam?

Heart of the Wild: adds 20% stam for 5 talent points deep in the feral tree.

Shield Slam - Soon to be revised to add 10% HP (still a 10 point prot talent?)

Can't be polymorphed?

- Stack warriors? Problem solved.

Check this out: http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?entryid=66903 (the original Cenarion Belt):

113 Armor

+20 Intellect

+7 Spirit

+8 Stamina

+10 Strength

+6 Nature Resistance

Classes: Druid

Requires Level 60

Equip: Increases damage done by Arcane spells and effects by up to 21.

I don't know what kinda point I'm trying to make. It's a terrible belt for preist in leather. It's disgusting. Nasty piece of hybrid garbage. The rest of the set was just as bad; int, stam, str, agi +spell damage +healing. /sarcasm off.

The original intent of the druid class has changed. I don't know if it's because they fired the original devs or what. Probably. Port to moonglade. Go to the south east corner. Find the Great Cat Spirit. Say "Why the hell is there a Great Cat Spirit, but no level 20 quest for Cat form?" The NPC is already there, it's been there since Beta. The least they could do is make a 'go talk to the cat and learn cat form' quest. It would take 3 minutes to code and it wouldn't make the class so glaringly incomplete. I've waited for that quest since Beta. I've waited for the "place holder" travel form cheetah to be upgraded like they promissed, also in Beta. I just did the level 20 poison quest on my rogue. So I'm kinda sore about that. I appologize.

Blizzard in thier infinate wisdom decided that they should restrain druids through itemization. You've seen it on the forums, a druid can dps, heal, or tank, but not at the same time. About needing different sets of gear for different roles.

But despite the complaints about all the druid crap in the game... by thier own logic it's not enough. You need one set for cat, one for healing, one for nuking, one for bear. That's 4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop. Hugehoss said something to the extent that with a full set of Hive Tunneler gear a bear tank could be viable in Naxx. But it's all theory craft. The gear's just not in the game.

But really, the dream is dead. It was a bait and switch to trick people into playing healers.

- Mootan quit.

- Hugehoss would have stepped down from MT as <Peekay> got further into Naxx, but the guild fell apart and they're back to Nefarian status instead of pushing into new content. So he lucked out and didn't respec resto.

For those not trolling the druid forums, imagine what the rogue forums would be like if Wodin (aka "The Rogue") posted that Rogue wasn't a viable dps class after all. Mootan and Hugehoss are "the ferals".

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=979205&tmp=1#post979205

Mootan's "I quit" post. It's depressing as all hell. "They sold me a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere." Since shapeshifting is an offspec and all. Hell, atleast I can amuse people with cool and interesting forms. Go me.

That being said, I love my druid. I'm 14 / 31 / 5. Even though Furor is broken. Again. That's fine. They'll fix it again. The blue's posted that they'll get around to it eventually. I heal when needed (which is alot), tank / off-tank when needed (which isn't as much as I'd like), dps when needed (Nobody. Is. Short. On. Rogues. Ever.) I'll probably respec to help my guild through Naxx, but we haven't hit the point where lack of healing is the issue yet.

Wait for the expansion. Hopefully with harder 5 mans people won't want a druid as a healer. GG 30 minute rez.

...

God, this post sounds depressing as all hell.

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To the above poster:

Sorry that is the same "Grass is greener" tripe trotted out by "lolferal" druids all the time and it doesnt even hold water.

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release. I rolled my paladin purely to tank and I did purely tank, all the way through 1-60 and all the way through MC and Onyxia, right until the paladin review destroyed that are of the game for me personally. Are you telling me I wasnt hit by a "Bait and switch" ? What about shadow priests, were they "a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere" ?

As for the AC .jpg, He has both inspiration (+25% armor) and Improved LoH (+20% armor) on him and they stack multiplicatively so thats 50% more armor. Its a freak number not one that you would ever try and balance the game about o even use to make a point in an argument if you are at all reasonable.

Yes I read Mootans "I quit post" and its more of the same. Druids are not the only class to need more than one gear set, they do not need "4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop":

Warriors: Tanking, Dps, FR, NR

Priests: Healing, DPS

Warlocks: DPS, (SR)

Paladins: Healing, Melee DPS, Spellpower DPS, Tanking

And soon everyone will need a FrR set.

All the hybrid classess need multiple sets.

You are not the only class with unfinished quests, paladins still dont have a level 40 mount quest. Infact some classess like priests just have a negligable number of class quests at all. Yours was not the only crappy tier 2, mage and warlock sets wre equally pointless at first, hence all the sets got a review and not just the druid set.

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To the OP:

1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

No, none of our priests will spec shadow for more than a week or two, they feel week and gimped at healing. Ive asked several times so I could see the effect on shadowweaving but none of them are willing to stay shadow.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

Yes, and Yes. We always aim for a 8x5 raid balance which necessitates the odd bear tank.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

No, and No. If you need more dps use a bear tank and have a warrior DPS. If you dont need any tanks and you dont need healers then cat dps is fine.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

No its rubbish, we have one balance druid and we mock him mercilessly

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

Yes and not since the Paladin review. Prior to that I tanked most of MC and Onyxia.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

Allaince.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

We only have 1 hard rule. Whent he raid leaer tells you to do a job you do it, if you cant do it because of your talents/gear then your place in the raid comes under question. If you a dps warrior is told to tank an add they sure as hell better strap on a shield and do it, same for paladins/priests/druids told to heal and so on.

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We've always had 2 druids tank Fankriss. We don't run with a lot of warriors and they handle the buggies a lot better. It's worked like a charm since the 1st kill. Don't think we've wiped once.

As for cat: We have 1 full Feral druid who gets to DPS semi-often. They just can't hang though. He's useful as a fill in tank(tanks surprisingly often), but for DPS they just can't compare. Still, as long as it's not holding the raid back somehow, having 1-2 around can't hurt as long as they're not shitheads about healing.

We have a few non-mana tide shaman, but they have healing gear and 99% of the time that's their job on raids.

While I wouldn't mind stacking warriors up to 8 per raid like most seem to do, I'm just not sure there's 8 warriors on Kilrogg I'm confident enough in to make someone in the guild lose a spot. Maybe raiding with 3-5 will stop us from progressing some day, but until then we're not going to be lowering our standards just to get another warrior.

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Given the number of posts that give good evidence to the contrary, it would be nice if you could post some sort of evidence for your view on this.

As I have posted before, this is my profile: http://ctprofiles.net/1604. I realise this is quite a lot more than what BWL offers, but raidbuffed without pots Im sitting on around 20% dodge and 20% parry. that there is 20% more avoidance than a bear can ever hope to achive. A BWL tank would be able to achive something around 20%/15% or so. As someone has mentioned earlier, keeping shield block up (asuming you have specced 1 imp), you will block 60-80% of all incomming attacks, which removes almost all crushing blows. I'm sitting on 450+ defense in my normal raid gear, making me immune to crit. This all means that a warrior will over time take less damage than a bear, even if the bear's AC is vastly superior.

We've always had 2 druids tank Fankriss. We don't run with a lot of warriors and they handle the buggies a lot better. It's worked like a charm since the 1st kill. Don't think we've wiped once.

Fankriss hits like a girl, so he isnt at all a viable test for bear vs warrior. We use our dps warriors.

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1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

We do have shadow priests though not in shadowform. Shadow priests can still heal adequately and keep shadow weaving up between heals.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

We have well geared bear druids. Tanking bosses? only in MC and we have not been there in a few months. In Nax we have a bear tank help play 'goalie' on noth and they are often used on large trash pulls.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

Not really. Would we take one over a rogue? Ofcourse not. Worse damage worse aggro etc.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

No moonkin. That tree is a trainwreck. I do not think our druids would spec moonkin even if we wanted them to.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

Out of 8 or so shaman I believe that we have 1 with mana tide but I believe all 8 have natures swiftness. I do not care what spec my guys bring to raids but I would not actively select a shaman with a stormstrike build as a full enhancement shaman brings much less to the raid then hybrid shaman do.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

We are pretty open with talent builds. That said we use a 'sane' loot council so nonsense like cats getting belt of agony from C'thun is not going to happen.

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Ever since we started Naxx we've had one of our druid spec feral.

For some fights we have found ourselves with some slack in healing, and he has helped out on dps.

Just depends on the fight. The only one, really, so far where having one person as feral has hurt has been patchwerk.

It depends though, if you have a line of warriors and rogues waiting outside your instance to get in.. perhaps you can completly specialize.

As a guild that runs a bit tighter, being able to have a bit of flexibility has really helped at times.

Short warriors for Faerlina one day, the druid tanked.

Optimal is a relative thing given your circumstances, and players.

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just on the issue of protection paladin.

I haven't heard of any tanking post patch. It wasn't that blizzard completely destroyed our viability in the protection tree, though they did hurt it a fair amount. Moreso, the thing that killed the protection paladin was how viable they made the holy tree in raiding. It is just too much to give up, both gear and spec, to become a nearly viable paladin tank. And I don't think you would have any chance tanking past MC/Ony and maybe early bwl. There are too many factors that work against paladin tanks (limited mana pools, limited tank gear that you're taking from warriors sometimes, limited holy dmg and threat generation) that hurt their viability. The tree is only there for kings and sanctuary and about 40 points of fluff as far as raiding is concerned.

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The problem with including a bunch of feral loot in an instance is that it pisses every non-druid off (see: AQ).

On a side note we're considering letting an Enhancement Shaman DPS with Nightfall if we can get one made, just for fun.

As for druids v. warriors, warriors can get a ridiculous amount more avoidance - one of our tanks has something like 25% Block, 24% dodge, and 20% Parry.

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1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

We have 2 and at least 1 is present each raid. On average, we have 4-6 Warlocks so the added DPS increase is always welcome.

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

We have a few Feral Druids but they haven't tanked much outside of Firesworns and Flamewakers and such.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

No Cat DPS Druids.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

We have one Moonkin Druid. In theory, they work well in tandem with Holy Paladins, but since you need to spread Paladins out for Auras, I tend to stick Mages in the Moonkin's group. But then the Mages complain that they never get heals. :laugh: We don't force specs, but Moonkin really do suck.

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

We had one and, surprisingly, he tanked his fair share of stuff including Rajaxx adds, those stinger packs in AQ20 and even Onyxia once when both MTs died (the last 8ish percent).

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

My guild is Alliance.

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

Not at all except maybe a Moonkin Druid. :laugh:

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I don't understand why people don't want to play their class the way it should be played. Melee hunters? Sure..that'll fly.

I started tanking as a joke of sorts, but then found some utility to it, but it's never something I look to do often. I've been selling the idea of dodge tanking for a while. Survival hunters are good for something! :P

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1. No. We only field 2 maybe 3 Warlocks, no point to have a Shadow Priest. I'd rather bring another Mage, Hunter, or Rogue if I want DPS. And without a doubt, a Holy/Disc or Disc/Holy priest is a far better healer than a Shadow one.

Sorry for the late reply on this, I somehow missed this thread yesterday.

I think this quote totally misses the point of bringing a shadow priest. The point is not to simply add dps. If it was, of course a mage / hunter / rogue / dps warrior would be a more appropriate choice. The point is a shadow priest can augment your raid in different ways. Unless you need every priest maxed out on healing (Patchwerk comes to mind) a shadow priest can offer a number of attractive things to a raid.

Unlimited warlock life tap

Shadow weaving

Increased dps (comes in handy for race fights like Maexxna, Faerlina and general trash clearing)

A shadow priest can very easily sustain a group taking incidental damage through VE.

Viable healer if the situation calls for it

Silence can be handy from time to time (C'Thun)

Spell resist reduction talent (comes in handy for MC in Naxx -- at least I think it would, have not actually tested)

Obviously the classes you mentioned are more attractive than a shadow priest if you are only concerned about dps.

Obviously a disc holy priest plays the pure healing role better.

I think a well played shadow priest can be very versatile and offers skills to a raid that are very attractive. Unfortunately, while learning instances people generally seem more comfortable with everyone playing "normal" roles. Patchwerk is the only fight thus far in Naxx where I think all the healers actually need to be specced for max healing. (I've only had experience with 6 fights, so future bosses may prefer the holy disc spec from priests.

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We had a shadow priest, he was doing oke, but he started "not noticing" when we asked him to stay out of shadowform and heal, and stopped bidding on healing gear, so we kicked him. He was tolerated until then though, mainly because we usually have more than average number of warlocks in our raids.

We have a pure beartank specced druid and an omen/lotp one. They're happy to sit in heal gear and do what the other druids do, and happy to tank when asked to. We use them to tank on several fights, among others the bwl drakes (including vael), broodlord, sartura and fankriss. Funny thing though, on emps the ferals are healing, and seem to be a lot better at dodging blizzard and so on.. It's a general tendancy for these people to be better at adapting, especially in mobile fights. And anyways, it makes feral loot like malfurion/ghoul skin less wasted to have them along.

Our omen/lotp druid does dps on trash and easy bosses. Usually put in group with our 2 sealfate rogues.

We have no shamans, period, for obvious reasons (until BC at least).

Optimal builds for specific raid roles is nice, but it's the person behind the keyboard that counts really. We're a couple bosses into naxx, and still haven't reached a point where slightly less healing/mana from 1-2 druids has made us unable to complete an encounter.

On a side note, we've had a pala tank all of zg. Had no ferals and only one warrior in the raid, and he just completed his sulfaras 15mins before joining the raid, so he wanted to test it. Obviously that was rather interesting. Would never use pala tank on higher level stuff though.

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1. Do you have any Shadow Priests in your raid? Does it help to have one, for added Warlock DPS?

No. We only bring two locks to instances nowadays and their DPS doesn't exactly validify losing another healer. Not to mention I'm extremely opposed to letting 1 person get the "fun" spec when the others have to bring the raidspec. It's not like we force specs and our healers love their jobs I'm sure, it's just that it only takes a little flame :)

2. Do you have any Bear Tanks? Do they tank raid bosses?

Not in spec or much in gear preferance, but we do employ Bears when we need them to fill temporary tank roles. We had a few good tanks leave and had to recruit some that weren't exactly up to par yet for tanking e.g one of Faerlina's followers. Rather have a Bear do it temporarily than potentially lose a good source of DPS. I think the best they've tanked is Garr, tho ;p. Horde doesn't get many variables for endgame raiding, BoS and Fear Ward do quite a bit in favor of Bears.

3. Do you have any Cats? Would you take a Cat over a Rogue? Why (not)?

Nope. Nope. It'll always be better to bring another rogue or another healer.

4. Do you have any Moonkin? Does the +3% spellcrit aura compensate for the lower DPS?

Nope. Nope. Our Druids all have warrior, mage, rogue or hunter alts already anyway :)

5. Do you have any Protection Paladins? Do they actually tank Big Stuff?

Not until the expansion. I doubt they'd get preference over Bears, either. Bears have loads better aggro generation and it doesn't take them their whole mana bar to do it either.

6. Do you have any non-healing Shamans? What do they do? (I'm alliance, no experience with Shamans, but felt I had to include them here)

We have a few Enhancement specced, but only for the better Windfury totems. They get put with the rogs and fury warriors. They heal like every other Shaman, tho :)

7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

I'm under the impression that there are no hybrids in this game. Going feral spec or elemental spec isn't exactly promoting your "hybrid-ness" either. However, with an extra healer on each side in the expansion, things may look up for Druids, Shamans and Paladins. I still don't think true endgame guilds will make space for "alternate" specs though.

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We have one Moonkin Druid. In theory, they work well in tandem with Holy Paladins, but since you need to spread Paladins out for Auras, I tend to stick Mages in the Moonkin's group. But then the Mages complain that they never get heals. :laugh:

Erh...your healers must really suck if they only heal their own group. For me personally as druid the group of someone is totally irrelevant, I heal whole raid, tanks or whatever my job is regardless of group.

***

My raid group has a fairly "casual" attitude towards specs, but people generally have raid-friendly specs for most part. It's also a bit class-dependant, for example the priests have taken a policy where they enforce certain talents, i.e. full shadow priests are not welcome.

We don't have full feral druids at the moment, but some of us like me have good feral gear, so I can switch to tanking when it's needed. Which is quite often actually since 6th tank is needed particularly in AQ, and sometimes we even fail to fill 5 warrior slots. I have more than 12k armor and 7200 hp with buffs when tanking despite having 31 points in resto. I'd say being a fully capable resto druid which can change to a decent tank in one click (itemrack ftw :D) is much more useful than some full feral druid which would end up healing most of the time anyway. We've had druids with feral spec in the past, and it's been rather silly with me as resto druid tanking and them as feral druids healing (since my tanking stats have been better). We have one oomkin druid, who is nice and all, but more of a mascot than a really useful raider. We don't even take advantage of the aura, he's healing in boss fights. Our druids rarely go cat, I do it for MC trash or something when I feel like it but it has no real use for progression. I don't know much about our paladin specs, but none of them has any real tanking ambitions. Some of them tank in phase 1 Nefarian though, and it's proven to be very useful in our strategy.

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1. I was our alliance's raiding shadow priest for awhile. This is/was my setup: http://ctprofiles.net/59986. I've since moved to playing my rogue more, mostly because it's needed, and because another shadow priest has shown he wants to take my place. Basically, we have the one shadow priest as a DPSer and VE'er. This works remarkably well in places that require a consistent pulse of healing on a low-damage-incoming group. Ragnaros, for example, or firemaw/flamegor. In AQ40, Sartura was one of my favorite fights. I took less damage than most of our rogues on whirlwind because of shadowform and inner fire.

I'd say having -one- shadow priest well geared is a boon to the raid. The importance of this priest is not damage, but rather a steady, consistent amount of healing and upping shadow DPS overall. The priest should still be concerned with his endgame goal: providing healing, but this way through a cheap spell combo: mind flay and vampiric embrace. Often, you can get SWP to stick long enough to make it worth it, too.

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Horde doesn't get many variables for endgame raiding, BoS and Fear Ward do quite a bit in favor of Bears.

Fearward: Yes. BoS: No.

Bear specced Druids cause more threat than Warriors :)

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To the above poster:

Sorry that is the same "Grass is greener" tripe trotted out by "lolferal" druids all the time and it doesnt even hold water.

Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

PvP server! Tank = PvE. I honestly rolled my druid to PvP. I think I started my account on day 8 or 9, Comp USA screwed up the pre-orders. I will admit that my perceptions of this game were tainted by playing Warcraft II & Warcraft III, Druids of the Talon and Druids of the Claw. ( And Malfurian Stormrage. I don't remember him being a healer at all). I was expecting the end game to be alot more Warcraft, and alot LESS Everquest.

I rolled my paladin purely to tank and I did purely tank, all the way through 1-60 and all the way through MC and Onyxia, right until the paladin review destroyed that are of the game for me personally. Are you telling me I wasnt hit by a "Bait and switch" ? What about shadow priests, were they "a whole area of a class that has no place anywhere" ?

1) And I don't think I claimed I wanted to tank. However, now, tanking is the only area where a druid's hybritity comes into play.

I actually leveled mostly balance spec. Pre-Nerfs. You could kill people with JUST roots (and a stack of mana potions). Hurricane used to be an instant cast 10 second AOE. Fire and Forget. You could root people in it. >:)

I switched to feral, once balance was nerfed, to get to 60 as fast as possible. Gotta get to 60 before the hero classes come out! It's gonna be awesome! Started doing PvE outa boredom. There's a whole lot of PvE happenin on my PvP server!

Here's the main issue behind lolferal bitching:

Blizz ninja changed the druid class description.

It USED to say "Forms may be considered as powerful as thier parent classes but not as versatile". NOW it says "Animal forms are not as powerful as their counterpart classes". They also added "primary healer". I don't know when this was changed. But if I wanted to be a primary healer, I would have picked preist.

You see, there was hope. Blizcon: "Druids are the one true Hybrid". The constant "cat form base dps increased" ect, the +ap weapons meant to close the gap...

Shadow Priests? Iono. Did Bliz ninja change thier class description too?

As for the AC .jpg, He has both inspiration (+25% armor) and Improved LoH (+20% armor) on him and they stack multiplicatively so thats 50% more armor. Its a freak number not one that you would ever try and balance the game about o even use to make a point in an argument if you are at all reasonable.

Have you seen Dreadnaught? 15.5k AC is a rare occurance now... Let's wait a month and see if that's still true.

Yes I read Mootans "I quit post" and its more of the same. Druids are not the only class to need more than one gear set, they do not need "4 druid drops for every other classes 1 drop":

Warriors: Tanking, Dps, FR, NR

Priests: Healing, DPS

Warlocks: DPS, (SR)

Paladins: Healing, Melee DPS, Spellpower DPS, Tanking

And soon everyone will need a FrR set.

I meant it as an illustration on how unrealistic the common "in equal gear a druid can be just as good". We have Caydem to thank for this by the way. The gear simply doesn't exist. I'm too tired to explain this correctly, Hugehoss said something like, a bear tank could keep up if only they had added a hive tunneler set instead of just a few pieces. That's fine for Bear druids. But could you imagine your guild's reaction to having to deal with a moonkin set, a kitty set, a bear set, and healer set dropping in each instance (so that druids could keep equal footing with thier mage/rogue/warrior/preist counterparts)?

All the hybrid classess need multiple sets.

That wasn't what I was going for really.

You are not the only class with unfinished quests, paladins still dont have a level 40 mount quest. Infact some classess like priests just have a negligable number of class quests at all.

Our level 20 quest giver is in the game, with nice little animation prowling around. The quest is ALMOST done. It's part and parcel of feeling like an incomplete class. Ie: Cheetah being a placeholder for two years until it was finally anounced that it wasn't important enough an issue to change any time soon.

Yours was not the only crappy tier 2, mage and warlock sets wre equally pointless at first, hence all the sets got a review and not just the druid set.

Actually, at level 25 the set looked amazing. +str, +agi, +damage. Far from useless. Definately NOT a healbot set.

I beleive the pally tier 2 actually had +STR and +spell damage added to it. The druid set had it stripped away.

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7. Or do you think any or even all of the above are ridiculous, and you should never have one of these in your raid?

Every other question can be answered through this one. There are certain specs and ways to play your character that are "best-fit" in the grand scheme of raiding most content. If your raid team embraces this attitude, you have an edge over the people that use pvp or fun specs, and you progress further, faster. People that say you can "make up for it" with consumables are deluding themselves, all those same consumables are available to the people that want to be the best raiders, and there's no way to bridge the gap between two players of equal skill and gear when one has a good raiding spec and one has a shitty raiding spec. There are just some mathematical things that cannot be overcome. Whether or not you care about fast and efficient progression as a guild should nudge people in certain directions for raiding gear and specs.

That said, the raid efficiency of your talent and gear builds simply dictates your rate of progress, it's not the limiting factor of how far you can get (though some would argue the Emps are the break point on this).

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Here's the main issue behind lolferal bitching:

Blizz ninja changed the druid class description.

It USED to say "Forms may be considered as powerful as thier parent classes but not as versatile". NOW it says "Animal forms are not as powerful as their counterpart classes". They also added "primary healer". I don't know when this was changed. But if I wanted to be a primary healer, I would have picked preist.

The same description said:

"Primary Healers"

While the paladin description used to include the phrases:

"They are tanks overall"

"Powerful melee class"

"Some healing and buffs"

We were also told:

"There will be no support classess in World of warcraft"

Which was then followed up in blue at the time of the Paladin review by:

"Paladins were intended to be a strong support class"

Paladins got it just as bad as druids, arguably worse, and the class description was a MAJOR bitching point.

As I said its a whole bunch of "Grass is greener" rubbish, and the two druids you cite as "The ferals" should have rolled warriors. They were not "Embracing their hybridity" they want to tank, they wanted to tank every fight all the time 100% of encounters except where blizzard made it excessivley difficult (Nefarian). When they could no longer tank, did they "embrace their hybridity"? No, instead one quit WoW. Yes they are very good players, but in the end Mootan was just another LoLferal who quit when he was told to heal. Hugehoss talks alot more sense and I take his opinions more seriously.

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Unlimited warlock life tap

Shadow weaving

Increased dps (comes in handy for race fights like Maexxna, Faerlina and general trash clearing)

A shadow priest can very easily sustain a group taking incidental damage through VE.

Viable healer if the situation calls for it

Silence can be handy from time to time (C'Thun)

Spell resist reduction talent (comes in handy for MC in Naxx -- at least I think it would, have not actually tested)

A Shadow Priest does give you flexibility, I'll give you that. But again, if you're only fielding 2-3 Warlocks, the benefit of Shadow Weaving and VE is marginal. Again as I said in my original post, if I want more healing I'll bring a healing-specced healer, and if I want more DPS I'll bring a DPS class. A Shadow Priest can do both, but in a more limited capacity.

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Look me in the eye and tell me on day 1 of release your rolled a druid to tank. Noone Ive met can do that, maybe later in the game they realized bearform was fun and viable and they could tank but look me in the eye and tell me you rolled your toon solely to tank. I dare any druid to do that if they rolled they char within a week of release.

We had two druids who started playing the day WoW came out who rolled thier druids to be tanks. One of them didn't even train cat form until a few months after hitting 60 because he wanted to be a bear, not a cat.

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