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ebs2002

[Fury/Arms] Rawr.DPSWarr Thread

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Im intrested in this as well. Consider a practically infinite rage encounter where you can spam HS or cleave about as much as you want. In that case, hit only increase the anmount of white offhand hits while haste increase offhand hits + the number of cleaves/heroic strikes you can use.

That scenario doesn't exist in Rawr. There is no infinite rage scenario, as that would require incoming damage (which we haven't modeled). In your scenario, yes Haste would be more valuable, because you could make every single MH attack a HS even if your offhand had streaks of misses. In a limited rage situation, however, it's not surprising to me that hit is more valuable for you. You can tell if you're in a limited rage situation by looking at the tooltip for your White Attacks -- if your MH DPS is greater than 0, you're in a limited rage situation.

Hit increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. Haste also increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. How much each of these are increased depends on what your current stats are.

Also note that if you're maintaining any debuffs (notably Demo Shout or Thunderclap), hit affects these. Demo/Thunderclap all have a spell hit requirement and not a melee hit requirement, so even beyond the cap this makes sense.

And of course, if you're below the hit cap, hit will always be more valuable.

I'm going to be looking into the value of hit today (to investigate the Commanding Presence bug), so if I have found anything that decreases the value of hit I'll let you know.

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That scenario doesn't exist in Rawr. There is no infinite rage scenario, as that would require incoming damage (which we haven't modeled). In your scenario, yes Haste would be more valuable, because you could make every single MH attack a HS even if your offhand had streaks of misses. In a limited rage situation, however, it's not surprising to me that hit is more valuable for you. You can tell if you're in a limited rage situation by looking at the tooltip for your White Attacks -- if your MH DPS is greater than 0, you're in a limited rage situation.

Hit increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. Haste also increases your rage and how frequently you can HS. How much each of these are increased depends on what your current stats are.

Also note that if you're maintaining any debuffs (notably Demo Shout or Thunderclap), hit affects these. Demo/Thunderclap all have a spell hit requirement and not a melee hit requirement, so even beyond the cap this makes sense.

And of course, if you're below the hit cap, hit will always be more valuable.

I'm going to be looking into the value of hit today (to investigate the Commanding Presence bug), so if I have found anything that decreases the value of hit I'll let you know.

Any plans on adding an option for rage gain from incoming damage? I think about Twin Valkyrs for example where the ticking aura grants you a close to infinite rage scenario (Now it is not the best example because of the empowered dark/light buff but anyway).

It could be intresting to see how raid damage could factor in how stats are valued.

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I'm trying to understand how Rawr determines the value of Expertise in Arms. I have a fairly typical setup for a raiding Arms Warrior (2pc + Archon Glaive and ArP hard capped prior to 3.2.2). It seems no matter what items I include for the Optimizer to consider , Rawr prioritizes hitting ArP cap above all other things, including Hit and Expertise caps. In fact, the setup that is being generated for me right now (max thoroughness) removes ALL Expertise from gear and puts me at 214 Hit rating (I have Heroic Presence toggled to on). Even with OP from Dodges making up some of the difference of a missed White hit, this seems counterintuitive.

Also, there are some bugs in the Ability Maintenance screen. Toggling Battle Shout to on results in a 300ish DPS increase (toggling Commanding Shout to on results in more predictable, very slight decrease). Toggling Berserker Rage to off results in a 200ish DPS increase, which seems high (by comparison, turing Bloodrage off results in a 16 DPS increase).

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I'm trying to understand how Rawr determines the value of Expertise in Arms. I have a fairly typical setup for a raiding Arms Warrior (2pc + Archon Glaive and ArP hard capped prior to 3.2.2). It seems no matter what items I include for the Optimizer to consider , Rawr prioritizes hitting ArP cap above all other things, including Hit and Expertise caps. In fact, the setup that is being generated for me right now (max thoroughness) removes ALL Expertise from gear and puts me at 214 Hit rating (I have Heroic Presence toggled to on). Even with OP from Dodges making up some of the difference of a missed White hit, this seems counterintuitive.

Also, there are some bugs in the Ability Maintenance screen. Toggling Battle Shout to on results in a 300ish DPS increase (toggling Commanding Shout to on results in more predictable, very slight decrease). Toggling Berserker Rage to off results in a 200ish DPS increase, which seems high (by comparison, turing Bloodrage off results in a 16 DPS increase).

In regards to your Ability Maintenance questions: If you have not set improved Battle / Might in the Buffs tab, and you have Commanding Presence, you are jumping from an unimproved to an improved, as Ability Maintenance takes your Talents and Glyphs into account. By toggling Berserker Rage to on, what you're doing is telling the model to spend one GCD every 30s, and because there is not yet modeling of incoming damage, there is no rage benefit. Bloodrage, by comparison, does not draw a GCD, and simply adds rage.

It would be nice to refine how different abilities are being maintained. Some abilities could be forced to only fill in after the primary damage abilities, and replace Slams (potentially even MS?) / sit in the unused GCDs of Fury.

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Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.

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I am going to make a more powerful priority system in Arms but I'm probably not going to make it until after Rawr3's real release. I have a lot of work to do with the Boss Handler until then so that we can create the Boss Tab in Rawr3 (next to the Options Tab) so that's it's generic to all models and all models can set up their stuff however they want to integrate with that main thing.

Users of DPSWarr get the preview of how it all works in the Fight Info tab as I'm doing all the work there to get the kinks out, then I'll push it to a separate thing.

I do have plans to incorporate Boss Damage and a mock-up of the methodology per boss is in the BossHandler but I have yet to make it effective. I need to work out the processes of Attacks being AoE vs single-target (from the Boss) as well as some other things before I can do this though. Once completed, I'll make you take damage as a character, which will place a higher importance on your Survivability Scale, and I'll make it handle your personal Dodges, etc. where applicable (I'm not going to make Dodge, etc. a Relevant Stat for DPSWarr). That damage will then be converted into Rage, which at the current time, will only increase HS%. I will be adding more logic in so that there's extra rage for Sudden Death and Execute Spamming later (I tried this once already but it was gimping things and I didn't like it).

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Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.

Thanks for the tip. I checked that thread and found a post by Killkool on July 23rd that accurately describes my issue. In a nutshell, it seems that high values of ArP completely skew Expertise and Hit priorities. This is throwing off Optimizer results, as gear with Exp+Hit are being excluded from the final result if the algorithm can find a way to cap (or near-cap) ArP. I see no direct response to this problem.

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You can set an optimizer requirement to force yourself to be hit/expertise capped (% Chance to be Avoided <= 0)

Edit: Note that this is Yellow Hit capped (8%) and Dodge Expertise capped (6.5% (-2%=4.5% if WM))

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I personally set two separate requirements, % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 . Also, we're hopefully getting the option to set decimal percents at some point in the future (% Chance to be Missed <= .2 ; Chance to be Dodged <= .5% , something along those lines).

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You can set an optimizer requirement to force yourself to be hit/expertise capped (% Chance to be Avoided <= 0)

Yep, that's what I've been doing in Rawr and have been gearing accordingly as well. I just wanted to highlight that you can get a (significantly) higher DPS rating via the Optimizer by not "forcing" it. Maybe not everybody will follow my initial logic, but I had assumed that it would balance those caps by default. If this is intended, maybe include a qualifier somewhere?

EDIT: % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 is exactly what I use as well.

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Yep, that's what I've been doing in Rawr and have been gearing accordingly as well. I just wanted to highlight that you can get a (significantly) higher DPS rating via the Optimizer by not "forcing" it. Maybe not everybody will follow my initial logic, but I had assumed that it would balance those caps by default. If this is intended, maybe include a qualifier somewhere?

EDIT: % Chance to be Missed <= 0 ; Chance to be Dodged <= 1 is exactly what I use as well.

The problem is ArP's bad scaling, we've taken a TON of efforts to make it gravitate to Hit/Expertise caps (or like within a Gem's worth) but ArP still has that point where it just goes and goes and goes.

As to that other person's issue with ArP and having one of the ArP Trinkets, set a ArP% limit req on the optimizer = rating where you get the most out of that trinket + whatever % it's adding in Rawr so it can't go above that amount when optimizing. With that req you should end up Exp/Hit capped (if you have the gear for it). Otherwise set BOTH requirements, with Hit/Exp higher in the list.

EDIT: For everyone's edification, I put this into excel to make up some numbers people can use.. See the post towards the end here

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Also, here is the current DPSWarr Discussions thread over at Rawr's pad: Rawr - Discussions - The New DPSWarr, Triumphs and Tribulations . There's a great deal of information about the model that's already been discussed, and may be able to answer some questions you may have about how something in the model works. I'm not meaning to draw discussion away from this (EJ) thread, but rather, pointing to some existing discussion about the DPSWarr module.

Checked that thread and didn't see anything regarding my question, so I'll ask here. I'm new to RAWR, but I'm loving the smooth interface and capabilities. I have 2 questions/concerns.

1. When I load my gear from the armory (which works great btw) the stats summary shows me as having 733 ArP (52.37%) when in reality I have 625 (44.66%). What's the deal? This is the fury version, so no Arms stance or T9 2 piece.

2. When optimizing gear how do I opt out of certain gear slots for consideration? Trying to modify the conditions a weapon is available in the optimizer only gives me the options of changing enchants. I couldn't find this in the help or figure it out easily. Basically I want to ignore my weapons because I want to optimize the gear I already have and as it is the optimizer will conjure up a 2nd [item]Dual Blade Butcher[/item] for my off-hand. I only have one for my main hand.

Thanks for any help!

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Checked that thread and didn't see anything regarding my question, so I'll ask here. I'm new to RAWR, but I'm loving the smooth interface and capabilities. I have 2 questions/concerns.

1. When I load my gear from the armory (which works great btw) the stats summary shows me as having 733 ArP (52.37%) when in reality I have 625 (44.66%). What's the deal? This is the fury version, so no Arms stance or T9 2 piece.

2. When optimizing gear how do I opt out of certain gear slots for consideration? Trying to modify the conditions a weapon is available in the optimizer only gives me the options of changing enchants. I couldn't find this in the help or figure it out easily. Basically I want to ignore my weapons because I want to optimize the gear I already have and as it is the optimizer will conjure up a 2nd [item]Dual Blade Butcher[/item] for my off-hand. I only have one for my main hand.

Thanks for any help!

Your issues are posted all over the Discussions and Closed Issues:

1. Stats on the Pane include all procs averaged out

2. You need to mark the weapon as unique so that the optimizer will only use one.

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I think I've fixed the issues with hit occasionally appearing to be more valuable than it actually is. If anybody is able to compile the pre-release code, check it out and see if you can still reproduce the error.

The problem was that the rage slip/avoidance streak calculations was affecting Bloodsurge more than it should have been, which would make hit seem more valuable under some circumstances. As of right now, I haven't been able to duplicate the "[stat] jumps up to strength's value when I toggle [some buffs]". If you can, please open an issue on the Rawr website, or let me know here. Remember to include your character file :)

I've also fixed the polearm logic for Fury.

The incoming damage/rage feature is something I'd like to add, if for no other reason than to have parity with Landsoul's sheet. I'm hoping to stomp out a few more bugs before I complicate the calculations a little more (esp. considering Fury still doesn't use all of the current mods that Jothay's added recently and he's been bugging me about them).

Next up for me, however, are:

1) Improving Flurry calculations

2) Fixing the ArP calculations for procs so we correctly model the exponential increase of ArP (we have the caps included, but we aren't considering that going from 90-100% is better than going from 50-60%)

3) More intelligent data being displayed in the Stats pane -- Unbuffed, AverageProcs (what the calcs will use), and Maximum

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I can't help but feel that Rawr is over-valuing haste.

It was telling me that Shard of the Crystal Heart was worth 50+ DPS over both my current trinks, Mirror of Truth and Pyrite Infuser. (it valued those two equally)

I was curious, so I picked up the Shard, but after testing it on dummies, and in an OS run, it seemed to pull significantly less DPS than either Mirror or Infuser.

Has anyone else noticed this, or would anyone else like to weigh in on it?

Another thing I was curious about was the engineering haste tinker for gloves. Rawr puts it head and shoulders above any other enchant. I've tested this too, but my tests here seemed to confirm Rawr's projection.

I'm look'n forward to some input from the experts.

Many thanks for this fine program!

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In Rawr.DPSWarr the only thing that Haste does is increase number of White Swings, which increases Total Rage, which allows for more Heroic Strikes, which reduces rage since they replace White Swings.

Judging the Items you named, the "problem" most likely isn't Haste at all, it's that you are overly dependent on the Hit being provided by these items. What is your Hit at with Crystal Heart?

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I'll look in to the value of haste. I just checked in some changes that will be in the next version that settles special effects more intelligently, and both of the effects you're referencing would be affected. I'm not at my dev box right now so I can't verify, but I am pretty sure those items are weighed lower. I'll update you when I know for sure.

As a side note, I'm not surprised that the eng gloves are better than anything else (although they are probably a little over-estimated right now). An average of 60-some haste rating is gonna be better than crusher, that's for sure.

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I did just check with the current unreleased code, and Hyperspeed Accelerators are still up around 3x the value of Crusher for Fury. This still makes sense to me and is on par with what Landsoul's sheet shows. In Landsoul's sheet, I have 2AP=0.75SEP and 1haste=0.74SEP. The accelerator proc averages out to 68haste for 50.32SEP total. Crusher is 0.75*44/2=16.5SEP (roughly 3x weaker).

The Shard of the Crystal Heart is considerably weaker with the changes. It's a hair worse than Mark of Supremacy, and is below Wrathstone by ~20dps but above Mirror of Truth by ~30dps.

You say that you're seeing lower DPS with the Shard than with Mirror. Is it possible that you're finding yourself rage-capped while using the Shard and unable to spend all incoming rage? That would be something I'm hoping to fix in the future (capping rage based on how quickly you can spend it vs the bursts that come in), but should be a problem that exists in Landsoul's sheet as well.

One thing that I noticed while investigating is that Landsoul's sheet values hit far less than Rawr does (we value it on par with Haste after the cap, while Landsoul does not). One thing that contributes is that Landsoul's sheet uses a straight Hits-per-Second in his proc uptime. We use Triggers-per-Second with a Hit Chance. Net result is that we have a slightly higher value on hit. There is a difference between an attack landing every 0.86secs and always hitting, and an attack landing every 0.84secs but sometimes it misses. I'm exploring this more to be sure, but I'm fairly confident that Rawr's is more correct, and that Hit Rating is valued far more than landsoul's sheet calculates.

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I've also seen Rawr appear to value Haste higher than it should. In version 2.2.19 it claims that the [item]Meteorite Whetstone[/item] would be an upgrade over my current trinkets, [item]Grim Toll[/item] and [item]Darkmoon Card: Greatness[/item]. This seems outright incorrect, and the most obvious explanation I could see was that Rawr overvalued the haste proc on the Whetstone.

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You're right, it did (see the last two posts right above yours). That's the same as the issue I was just talking about that has been fixed and will be in the next release.

With DMC:Greatness and Grim Toll equipped, I'm seeing the whetstone giving 40dps less than GT and 130dps less than Greatness.

For technical details, we were only doing one pass of special effects rather than iterating over ones that affect others (ie, haste will affect berserking uptime). This made haste-based special effects seem more valuable than they were in practice, and is fixed for when 2.2.20 comes out.

I'm diving into the GT/MR fix that everyone's been clamoring for, and it should also be included in the 2.2.20 release.

Edit: Some other changes that have gone in recently:

- Mongoose and Executioner are now modeled on each independent weapon resulting in lower value

- Rage Gains from Damage Taken have begun to be added

- "Hide Bad Items" has been split up to Tank gear, Spell Gear, and PvP gear. Spell gear doesn't filter out on Int due to mail getting this as a free stat, but will filter out all items with mp5, spirit, or spell power

- Reaction Time/Latency are now used more intelligently (ie, reaction penalty is only applied to abilities that are, well, reactive)

- Avoidance Streak has been modified a bit to be less penalizing on your DPS

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You say that you're seeing lower DPS with the Shard than with Mirror. Is it possible that you're finding yourself rage-capped while using the Shard and unable to spend all incoming rage? That would be something I'm hoping to fix in the future (capping rage based on how quickly you can spend it vs the bursts that come in), but should be a problem that exists in Landsoul's sheet as well.

Yes, I probably am taking in a little more rage than I can spend while using the Shard. This actually makes perfect sense.

In Rawr.DPSWarr the only thing that Haste does is increase number of White Swings, which increases Total Rage, which allows for more Heroic Strikes, which reduces rage since they replace White Swings.

Judging the Items you named, the "problem" most likely isn't Haste at all, it's that you are overly dependent on the Hit being provided by these items. What is your Hit at with Crystal Heart?

I was at 285 hit before equipping the Shard, so I don't think this is the case... I could be wrong, though, as more white swings landing is never a bad thing.

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After re-doing a lot of places where hit and haste were indeed overvalued (particularly in trinkets), the shard is now (rightfully) lower than Mirror. So while you were losing rage due to the haste, even if there weren't a rage cap it would still be worse. You were right from the start :)

Some other changes added recently:

- Grim Toll/Mjolnir Runestone calcs working properly (averaged over damage reduction instead of rating given)

- Rage gains are granted on dodged white attacks (I'm honestly now sure how I missed the memo that this was occuring!)

- Max Armor Penetration (ie, how much arp you have with your trinket procced) has been included in the Armor Penetration tooltip. This number will actually exceed 100% when you're over-capped, so you know just how much over you are. When your trinket is procced, however, the calculation does auto-cap itself at 100%

All of these changes will be in 2.2.20, which should be coming Sunday or early next week.

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Ebs had a couple bugs in that GT/MR proc thing (see previous post) when it came to Arms, but we have that fixed now. We also discovered one of the major bugs with Hit, and fixed that (had to do with 2 roll crits). We also just fixed Sword Spec activates and some double-dipping activates for Deep Wounds.

I'm gonna spend the next 24 hours comparing Rawr to Landsoul's current sheet to see if there's any new insights that could help Rawr.

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Pre3.2 patch i was an arms/fury, and after Execute's nerf i dropped arms for tank, 'cause my arms-dps becomes 3/4 of my-fury. But today, i switch my gear from fury-file in Rawr in arms-talents, and Rawr saya: "even with str-gems, your arms-dps is slightly better then fury". How it can be? ^)

Link to armory

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Pre3.2 patch i was an arms/fury, and after Execute's nerf i dropped arms for tank, 'cause my arms-dps becomes 3/4 of my-fury. But today, i switch my gear from fury-file in Rawr in arms-talents, and Rawr saya: "even with str-gems, your arms-dps is slightly better then fury". How it can be? ^)

Link to armory

It's helpful to take a line from Landsoul's sheet on this one: "Please don't use the spreadsheet to determine if fury is better than arms or not. It's just a metric to determine what gear to acquire to get the most efficient output. You should try both specs if you want to see which is better for what fight." Same goes for Rawr. It depends on the fight. It depends on the buffs available, and the buffs you need to provide. The DPS output from a calculation is merely a metric, a means of comparison within the closed system (that system being your specific character setup). Don't try to over-emphasize the values you get between two totally different specs here.

Some fights lend themselves to Arms. Some fights lends themselves to Fury. If there's enough of a performance difference for you to switch for a certain fight or set of fights, go for it! For everything else - play what you have the most fun with. Really. They're close enough where you can do that for most of the content, and not be hurting anybody by doing so.

Let me say that again:

For the overwhelming majority of the current

and recent raiding content, you can

play whichever spec you enjoy more,

and still be pulling your fair share in the raid.

Really.

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