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Malan

What does your guild bank gold get used for?

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The raider/nonraider interaction needs to be both ways.

With BOE epics the non-raiders have a continuous way to upgrade their character by obtaining money. They can obtain money by either farming gold, or by farming mats that raiders need and by selling them to the raiders. They in turn use that gold to buy BOEs from said raiders.

Since MC, Blizzard has broken that raider->nonraider interaction, and has bumped up the non-raider->raider interaction. This is one of the big problems.

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Widow is a good example of some of the glaring problems in Naxx as a whole. The laggier your server, the harder the fight (drastically so)... and consumables are king. Thaddius is still unnerving on this end... nothings changed.

The lag on our server has become high enough that we can't drop her until 11pm server time... however, if we use GFPPs, doing it at primetime is possible.

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Yeah, I completely agree regarding the two-way street. I really don't see why some of the trash epics from later instances aren't BoE. You could sell a Necro-Knight's Garb for a fucking fortune. A small handful of BoE epics from raid zones wouldn't break game balance in the slightest, and it'd stimulate the economy.

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On a somewhat related note, the fact that I probably will soon be passing on Bonescythe because I don't have the money to make the pieces until I free up time to farm is probably the most irritating I've seen in WoW in a long time.

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The big thing, as others have said, is that consumables are now being considered part of the fight which everyone is using.

On previous road-block encounters, the only real consumables that was used that seemed to be required were various protection potions. GFPPs on Ragnaros, Nature potions on C'Thun, Ouro, and Huhu... As time went on, they began to be needed less and less, but they were somehwat 'required' to learn the fight, just to give healers some leeway. Consumables beyond those were just to give a margin for learning the fight. Flasking tanks or using DPS potions.

In Naxx, we hit encounters like Patchwerk and Maex, where it feels like Stonescale Potions and Flask of the Titans are assumed on every tank. Every class looks at Patchwerk and things "I'm going to spend 10-15 gold each attempt on this encounter." From a gear standpoint, Patchwerk is clearly going to be an encounter that gets easier with better gear- but I don't see it being something where we wever spend less than 10 gold an attempt.

And of course there's the 3-4 second lag spikes that our server loves that wipes us every time. Nothing like 300+ gold down the drain because of the server. My entire guild is on extreme farm mode whenever we aren't raiding, and it just isn't fun anymore. :(

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My DPS consumables and repair bills cost me around 160g last week. I currently have 2g, and I have yet to refill my stocks of DPS consumables. I work, go to school, and have other obligations outside of WoW. I'm going to have to start taking days off of raiding to refill my gold supply.

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A small handful of BoE epics from raid zones wouldn't break game balance in the slightest, and it'd stimulate the economy.

I agree with that. There should be BoE epics in non-MC raid zones, or increase the spawn rate of herbs.

It makes raiders happy to have more gold, and non-raiders can have a chance at high-quality epics.

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I'll go one step further - not only should there be BoE epics, but some of them should be a 100% drop of that item class- ie. bracers in MC should be off a friggin boss and be a 100% drop off XYZ boss (just like in BWL), not a 5% chance (or whatever) to drop off any of the dozens of Molten Giants that everyone skips. Heck, whats the reason for non-set, non-raid-spec items being BoP? Feral druid crap in AQ40? Make that shit BoE so we can sell it to all the PvP droods.

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yeah it would be nice if stuff like the the blessed bullwark was BOE since it would be in much higher demand to the non-raiding guilds than the raiding guilds.

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I also agree that raiders and non raiders should have a strong interaction in the economy. Buying mats for consumables is a good way to do this but I feel that the implementation is awful.

Problems with the current system

1- Many of the best alchemy recipes are rare or require reputations from raid zones which make them inaccessable to the casual player. Your average casual alchemist probably can not even make major mana pots let alone flasks or magebloods.

2- Many materials used in the best raiding potions are also used in less useful potions. For example silversage is expensive enough that it is always cheaper to buy major health pots instead of buying mats to craft them.

3- Most casuals have absolutely no clue what items are of value to us so they dont farm them. I am sure if they knew they could make 30 gold an hour in arathi farming elemental fire or in badlands farming elemental earth that they would be all over it. Realistically, the market should be flooded with these mats but it never is. Dark runes, firewater etc there is plenty of great stuff out there but it.

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1- Many of the best alchemy recipes are rare or require reputations from raid zones which make them inaccessable to the casual player. Your average casual alchemist probably can not even make major mana pots let alone flasks or magebloods.

Well I will agree with you on the mageblood.

However, major mana pots are from a 5 part questline in Scholomance that can be completed in one run if you have a nice group willing to wait for you to run in/out of Scholo after each boss that needs to be killed.

Flasks drop in Scholo, Strat and UBRS, so they are equally accessable to non raiders.

3- Most casuals have absolutely no clue what items are of value to us so they dont farm them.

So true. But also true of raiders. I had a guildie tell me that just the other day he destroyed like 4 stacks of deeprock salt because he had no idea what is for - not realizing I needed it for the Dirge's Kickin' Chimaerok Chops recipe.

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whores for everyone!

seriously, tho, our guild bank goes largely untouched. we have DKP turn-ins for titans/repair bots (which total 2 dkp a month, for those of you screaming "INFLATION", in a system where the average tier 3 set item price is 35) and occasionally the bank funds supreme powers/stoneshields/etc, but people largely provide their own consumables. i have an alt stocked with some number of thousands of thorium arrows and 100+ mongoose pots. we could certainly benefit from having heavy potion use be a more regular thing, and we've been working on setting up a central herb/pot bank, but it's a long way in coming i tihnk.

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It would be nice if there were a couple of Frozen Rune craftables that would be desirable to the non-raider/pvp community. At some point you'll have enough frozen runes that you won't need them for gearing your raid - selling craftables would be a nice way to restock the bank. Unfortunately the only craftables are frost-resist gear - while nice, resist gear has never been in huge demand from the general server population. With the way Naxx is structured, you don't even have the market to sell frost gear to new guilds entering the dungeon because you only really need the gear after you've cleared most of the dungeon anyway.

I don't think it'd hurt much if raid instances like Naxx had raid-sized herb / mining nodes (drop 10-15 gromsblood each, for example), or have the trash drop consumable ingredients instead of gray vendor items. This would blunt the cost somewhat, however it doesn't close the loop with the greater economy in quite the same way as BoE or craftable gear would.

Perhaps if they included a few recipes that required wartorn scraps or similar trash drops, there'd be something to make money off of.

Currently BWL is our cash dungeon. A full clear without wiping makes more than 30g per person, which is pretty decent profit, and blunts my repair costs from Naxx runs quite nicely.

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My repair costs for my war run around 60g for naxx, maybe a bit higher if we push more raid time. Removing 50% of my naxx repair cost by running BWL counts as "blunting my repair costs quite nicely".

No, I'm not counting consumables, and no I didn't say it paid for my repairs 100%.

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It would be nice if there were a couple of Frozen Rune craftables that would be desirable to the non-raider/pvp community.

Not sure of the cost of the FrR recipes (besides the runes), but I would guess that some of the causal community would like to have more epic items, no matter what the stats are.

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Are you serious? That's not even one night of Naxx learning attempts.

Why are you getting bent over this? Margot said blunts, as in removes some of the pain. After clearing MC, BWL, AQ40 and some of the Naxx bosses I can break even after 2 nights of repair costs in Naxx. Add in consumables though, then I am hurting.

edit: damn Whiteknight beat me.

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Not sure of the cost of the FrR recipes (besides the runes), but I would guess that some of the causal community would like to have more epic items, no matter what the stats are.

Yes, I agree. I'll probably see if there's a market for these pieces at some point when we have enough for guild progression - for exactly the reason you state.

The mats are all listed here

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=53692

By and large, the frozen rune is the expensive part - the rest is a couple of arcanite, some runecloth and/or essence of water - and not in really huge quantities either. Even then, you get on average enough frozen runes to make one piece per boss kill - so gearing a full raid shouldn't take too long.

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dont expect blizzard to give away the bank. I am sure most would take 30g less costs each week if they could. The other option is to slow down the cutting edge stuff. One way to slow down guilds is to make it so expensive to do the raiding that they have to either play more to get it done or cut down on the amount of raids. Anything that is a time sink in this game seems to be approved by blizzard.

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Some fights aren't like this at all -- you can practice and learn Gluth quite nicely with fairly minimal expenses. But when you spend a night wiping to Patchwerk or to Gothik, it's pretty brutal.

In learning a lot of encounters in BWL/AQ40, and earlier, our DPS consumable requirement was pretty light. There's little point in going all out on consumables on Twin Emps or Ouro when we're still working on positioning and timing. After we got a solid attempt or two of our raid knowing what to do, then we loaded up on consumables and downed the bosses that had a heavy DPS requirement.

So this is all leading up to a question- which encounters in Naxx require loading up on DPS/raid consumables just to learn the encounter? I've seen refrences to Gothik and Loatheb requiring a ton of stuff to even get going in the fight. What about Thaddius? We've killed or are working on all the other bosses, and none of them really required DPS consumables on learnign the fight (the kills, on the other hand...)

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Thaddius - nope.

Gothik - no, although it could be hard to tell if you're wiping due to dps or if you're screwing up strategy.

Loatheb - probably, we haven't given this guy serious attempts yet. It pains me to think of the gold usage on this beast.

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You can do nearly every fight in Naxx with low consumables for learning with the exception of Patchwerk. For us, all bosses so far we've been able to tell how soon we were going to kill it, meaning we could time our pot use farily well. We also had some of the lower HP members of the raid farm titans for Thaddius, which at this point I think is farily overkill on a non-laggy night

Gothik is a drain on gold not because of consumables, but because of the fact that you can basically attempt him constantly, with a minimal amount of trash to him and no downtime between attempts.

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If horde can even kill Loetheb currently.

Figured I'd answer this one

Curse just downed Loatheb ;) Go Horde EU!

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You can do nearly every fight in Naxx with low consumables for learning with the exception of Patchwerk. For us, all bosses so far we've been able to tell how soon we were going to kill it, meaning we could time our pot use farily well. We also had some of the lower HP members of the raid farm titans for Thaddius, which at this point I think is farily overkill on a non-laggy night

.

that seems like definite overkill. just use a greater nature pot every time the cooldown is up?

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This is something I'd been meaning to make a thread of its own about. At the risk of coming across like a whining pussy who clearly isn't hardcore enough for real raiding, I can't help but question whether dependence on consumables and such has gone too far, to the detriment of the "fun" of the raiding game. Repair costs I can handle. But when you have fights that are tuned a bit above the level of gear of an unbuffed raid group entering the zone, consumables are pretty much required in order to even learn the fight.

I find this interesting because I remeber when the Mat cost of tier 3 was released I "whined" that the cost was too hgih and would hurt raids like mine with many causal players who barely play enough outside of raids to cover repairbills let alone 100-200g per epic. Your general answer was:

"I dont understand people who log in and expect to only raid".

Yet here you are making a similar point. No matter how hardcore we are we all have limited playtime outside of raids, and ther eis a question wether NAxx pushes us too far between repairs, consumables and trade mats.

I guess we might all have our breaking point after all ?

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