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hellord

Crit depression and combat table

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I was trying to figure out if we should gear towards those 29.72% to hit the cap, or simply 24.92% since 4.8% won't crit anyway. It turns out that those 4.8% forced hits are converted from our crits, they're not simply always there on the attack table, so we do need to gear all the way to 29.72%. If we only geared to 24.92%, we'd see 4.8% hit plus another 4.8% from the forced conversion, for a total of 9.6% hits.

This, I think, is Mavanas' misunderstanding, above, which I was trying to clarify.

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Correct. If we geared to 24.92, we wouldn't reduce at all to the crit cap and still be at 24.92 - and *then* the 4.8% reduction kicks in and drops our actual crit to 20.12.

In short: the crit cap would now appear to occur when your "tooltip" crit is 100-24-dodge-miss. I say "tooltip" because it does need to include crit-increasing debuffs on the boss, so it won't be the number actually in your tooltip - the point is that it's the value without worrying about any crit reduction. Once we get to that point, we do start losing crit to the crit-capping check, which is performed "before" the 4.8% crit reduction. So, say, if our miss is 10% and we're at the dodge cap for expertise, when our "tooltip" crit reaches 100-10-24 = 66%, we are crit capped, even though this only works out to 61.2% *actual* crit due to crit reduction.

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It's fairly concrete that crit reduction is due to the difference in levels between the attacker and the boss-level mob. It seems that the absolute test between crit depression and an inherent combat table issue would be to test on level 80/81/82 targets. Ferals cannot get to the crit required to overcome the lack of glances on the 80 dummy (with Live gear). Can rogues?

Do players glance on level 81 mobs, or just bosses? Is there a good place to find only level 81 mobs to test against them?

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I think I recall glances on equal level mobs. If I am remembering correctly, I did a little testing awhile back and decided that it was probably 6% vs 80; 12% vs 81; 18% vs 82. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but it appeared to be the trend.

Assuming one can hit the crit cap on a 80 target dummy with only 6% glance; 5% parry; 5% dodge, it would determine if this 5% hit is ever-present or based on boss level.

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Such testing would almost certainly need to involve a dual-wielding class, as the extra 19% miss rate is going to be pretty important for getting there; even so, even assuming no hit or expertise, it's going to take around 60% tooltip crit to get there, which I suspect isn't really feasible for anyone unbuffed; however, with raid buffs, such a thing might be possible to put together.

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Ok Aldriana seems to assume that crit depression coexists with crit-to-hit conversion even though his test is by design incapable of proving one way or another. You observe the conversion which you could also see in Hellord's tests but what about crit depression? You do not actually see it. To test if crit depression is present alongside with hit conversion you need to test it with specific crit rates that are not well above the crit cap level.

So for instance if you have 30% left for crit after dodge, miss, glance and the forced 5% hits, test this with exactly 30% crit. If you observe 30% crit on the dummy, then there is no crit depression above and beyond the 5% crit-to-hit conversion for bosses 3 levels above you. If you observe 25%, then you know there is a crit depression on top of the 5% conversion. If you test this with 44% crit, you won't know one way or another.

I am pretty confident that there is no double crit depression. Meaning that only 5% of our crits are converted to hits, which we thought of crit depression all along. There is no further reduction to our crit once that conversion is done. If you have evidence to prove the contrary, do share. Aldriana's latest tests do not prove it one way or another.

P.S. I am pretty confident I have done tests with low levels of crit, and I observed around 5% reduction in crit rate. If 5% of our crits are converted to hit, and 5% is all the reduction to crit rate we see, then it leaves no room for crit depression above and beyond the crit conversion.

Therefore (unless someone can prove me wrong with a well designed test), our previously known formula for crit cap 100%-D-M-G+5% has to be adjusted by 10% not 5%. The new crit cap formula, based on crit-to-hit conversion and no crit depression on top of that is going to be 100%-D-M-G-5%.

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I have no idea what you mean about my test assuming crit conversion and crit reduction both exist. I don't see how I assume anything of the kind. I may use both terms, but I don't believe I in any way suggest that there's two separate reductions occurring - I'm fairly sure what I said, and what I was testing, was that what we have previously called crit reduction is really implemented as a forced conversion of 4.8% crits to hits. Really, I think the salient facts are as follows:

1) Against boss level mobs, our observed crit rate is 4.8 lower than our "tooltip" crit rate - that is, lower than we might "expect".

2) No matter how much crit we may have, 4.8% of our attack table will still be regular hits.

Vulajin's testing shows the former pretty conclusively; my testing is reasonably strong evidence for the second. So, what does this mean in terms of the mechanic? Well, there's two different ways of phrasing it - please note that they are completely identical in practice. There is no functional difference. They are two different ways of saying the same thing.

Crit Reduction

Crit is reduced by 4.8%, but the hit table had 4.8% hit on it which cannot be removed. Thus, the amount of room in the hit table for crits is 100-G-D-M-4.8, with the 4.8% representing the hits that we cannot get rid of. Thus, we our capped with our tooltip crit rate, C, after being reduced by crit reduction (4.8%), matches this value - that is, when C-4.8 = 100 - D - M - G - 4.8 - that is, when C = 100 - D - M - G.

Crit Conversion

4.8% of crits are converted to hits, after the crit cap is imposed. That is, we our crit capped when 100-D-M-G = C, and our hit table consists of 4.8% hit, C-4.8% crit, and the expected D + M + G of other stuff.

Note that either way, the crit cap occurs when C = 100 - D - M - G; note that our observed crit rate in this case is 100-D-M-G-4.8. This is different from the prior theory, when we believed ourselves capped when 100-D-M-G=C-4.8, by 4.8%.

So, yes, our *actual* crit is 100-D-M-G-4.8 when we're capped. But this is when our *tooltip* crit satisfies C=100-D-M-G. And this is only 4.8% lower than it was before.

Also note that either way, the theory is consistant with the observed data - positing that the crit cap is otherwise does not - we *observed* 100-D-M-G-4.8 crits, meaning that we would be capped with 100-D-M-G crit. And I really don't see how any other interpretation can be valid if it doesn't give the same crit cap, given that the data is an excellent fit for this one.

Like, consider your test; if we have 35% left for crit after dodges, misses, and glances, and we test at 30% crit, what do we expect to see? Well, we expect to see our crit reduced by 5% to 25%, and thus 10% misses. There's the 5% forced reduction/conversion/whatever-the-heck-you-want-to-call-it, and the 5% we didn't even try to remove because we didn't have enough crit. I'm not seeing any reasonable theory that proposes otherwise, so I'm not sure what testing in this case would actually demonstrate.

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Thanks I found my mistake. The crit cap is 100-D-M-G now, which is only 4.8% lower than the what we thought before.

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ok so..

1. Crit cap is 100-D-M-G. If Cap is 42.5% (without any antidodge or hit, DW), and you have 45% crit, your crit rate will still be 42.5%

2. 4.8% of all crits are converted to hits. If you are over the 42.5% Cap, your observed rate will be 42.5%-4.8%, and you will see 4.8% hits instead of 0.

3. Double-Roll system (yellow, special) is affected by #2, but since no cap, can be overcome if you have 104.8% crit

That's the consensus I am seeing across all the theories in this post. Would it be safe to use this theory in spreadsheet calculations?

Also, I would be interested to know if this "conversion" comes from the level difference, and also how resilience reductions apply to this. Maybe the crit reduction from resilience also applies in this matter, but I'm not sure how you would test it because there are no glances when testing resilience.

I'm going to test this out myself and should post the results later tonite.

Attacking from the front, 50+% tooltip crit, 3% hit and 0% expertise.

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I'm not sure I'm 100% confident that 100% crit rate is achievable with strikes; all the testing I've seen go by is with spells, which have a different amount of crit reduction and, therefore, it's quite possible that they have a different mechanic as well. I'd be interested to see testing done with 104.8% critical strike chance on a strike. I'm not sure how much it actually matters, given that I'm not aware of any classes that are getting dangerously close to the strike crit cap at this point; but it's probably worth confirming.

For rogues intending to test this, the easiest way seems to me to be Ambush; talented, it gives +50% crit rate, which means you only need 54.8% elsewhere, which should be possible to assemble for testing.

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with +3% hit (precision)

48.34-53.34% crit (rampage) it's way over cap so it doesn't matter.

Across 6400 attempts

[table]type|number|percentage|expected

crit|1665|26.01|26.50 or 26.70

miss|1545|24.14|24.00

glance|1540|24.06|24.00

parry|888|13.875|14.00

dodge|444|6.94|6.50

hit|318|4.97|4.8 or 5.0[/table]

So there's definately some conversion action here with white melee attacks.

I made a DD forums post here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Testing Reveals New Melee Hit Table Behavior prompting a blue response to clarify cryptic mechanics

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I'm not sure I'm 100% confident that 100% crit rate is achievable with strikes; all the testing I've seen go by is with spells, which have a different amount of crit reduction and, therefore, it's quite possible that they have a different mechanic as well. I'd be interested to see testing done with 104.8% critical strike chance on a strike. I'm not sure how much it actually matters, given that I'm not aware of any classes that are getting dangerously close to the strike crit cap at this point; but it's probably worth confirming.

For rogues intending to test this, the easiest way seems to me to be Ambush; talented, it gives +50% crit rate, which means you only need 54.8% elsewhere, which should be possible to assemble for testing.

Hellord's post on page 1 shows testing with Imp. OP(+50% crit) and 54.78% crit; he saw 1535 crits with no hits. That puts the odds of crit depression working the same for specials as whites at about 1/impossible.

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I've been thinking about this crit conversion effect for the last day or two, and thought up what might be a posible explanation for the 4.8% crit to hit conversion we are seeing.

What if the effect is caused by bosses having resilience?

A lvl 80 player would take about 470 Resilience to get 5% crit converted to hit. It wouldn't be unrealistic to think then that a lvl 83 mob with 500 resilience would have about 4.8% crit converted to hit.

As I understand it, This mechanic is in game already and could easily have been used to reduce dps from excessive crit scaling. The fact that resilience as a mechanic was added after the core combat table was built could explain this crit reduction interacting with the crit cap in an weird way.

For example, if the process was:

Generate combat table

Generate random number

Check result

If Crit was it countered by resilience? if yes then result = Hit

Then we would see pretty much exactally what has been observed.

The only thing I am not clear on is what happens to say a player with resilience getting hit by someone thats crit capped. Wowwiki only uses the example of a player with 100% crit hitting someone with 5% resilience and beign reduced to 95%, but what abotu a player with 105%?

I would think that a rogue or DW warrior attacking a Prot pally or warrior would do it. Unfortunately As a resto druid I don't have access to either to test with.

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In case someone is intersted, Zeksie (developer of great mods like Xperl, Utopia, etc) has made a small mod to monitor in game crit rate, small graph with changing colors when approaching the caps.

Critic

Simplistic addon to show a some details of your crit chance vs crit cap. You can either show just a simple tiny text area, or a small graph for the past X number of seconds of time showing crit/cap over time.

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Ah, I missed that. Okay, then, yes, I agree with Landsoul's summary.

Hellord's data could simply suggest there is no crit conversion for specials at all, which is different from Landsoul's #3: conversion exists, but could be overcome with 104.8% crit. Were there any recent tests of melee specials with crit rates below 100% that show any crit depression?

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Back when we had the original crit reduction discussion I did some testing on my own which indicated that there definitely was crit reduction on strikes and it was of the same magnitude as the 4.8% observed on white attacks. I haven't saved the test data, and I don't remember all the details, so I can't post the numbers to prove it, though. Hence, retesting it might be worthwhile (the natural way being whacking the target dummy while just below 4.8% tooltip crit), but I have no expectation of us finding anything other than the fact that it's similarly reduced by 4.8%.

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I also did some brief testing with OP at 103.5% crit on the most recent PTR testing the "warrior's only have ~3% crit depression" theory. I stopped after I saw ~2-3 hits, proving it incorrect, and just assumed it was most likely the same 4.8% depression rate. Hellord's data with OP testing also shows a test with 104.33% crit and has 1 hit in 127 attacks.

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Has there been any explicit testing of Heart of the Crusader/Master Poisoner/Totem of Wrath? From the tooltips, it seems like HotC/MP look like enemy debuffs as opposed to player buffs, so they might not count as simple add-to-character-sheet crit.

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I hope this isnt considered as a thread ressurection but Ive run a really quick test on the HotC subject and it seems to make no effect on the final result of the 4.8% value of crit depression.

I had no hit and no expertise during the test, but was still speced into precision, also had ~33% crit on character sheet tooltip without rampage. The dummy was debuffed with HotC during the whole test of course.

hotcandcritdepression.jpg

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So that means that ToW and HotC debuffs count towards the crit cap or not? As they dont actually raise a character's crit chance, but rather the mob's chance to get crited, its not very clear. So do we have a crit cap of:

1. 71.2% plus the 3% debuff? or

2. 71.2% including the 3% debuff?

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On the Retesting hit table thread there is a post that made me curious to retest crit cap and I'm actually experiencing a very low hit rate, much less then the expected 5%. In the first 1k hits I didn't see a single hit and I was running with 51.35% tooltip crit, 0.76% hit (25 hit rating 0/0 talents) and 3.25% expertise (9 from SoA and orc racial). I was capped by really few and as soon as I lost a buff (prolly a motw) and went to 50.53% crit I started getting few hits.

Either if I was capped by a few or uncapped by the same few, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't get 3 hits over 1261 attempts given the "minimum" would be quite higher. I'll try to make a proper test with different ratings and hitting from both the front and the back tonight and I'll try to post some results.

It may just have been a bug where miss went over crit instead of hit, but I think it deserves a bit of attention now since some spreadsheets modeled crit softcap assuming 5% base hits.

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Not getting any hits much at all..

Were they blocks maybe? You were hitting them from the front.

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