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BWarner

DPS Warrior - BiS Listings and Discussion

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The intention is to remove race- or faction-specific benefits from the equation.

I'm curious why this intention is there. As you said "The point of BiS is to see exactly what the ultimate gearing set is, and what exactly the performance implications of such a gearing are." Knowing which race is the best race for current content is useful, since it changes your BiS quite dramatically, particularly for melee classes. The fact that not everyone can be the best race doesn't really matter, since not everyone can be a Gnome or Nelf either - similar numbers of people will find the BiS list posted incorrect for them either way (actually fewer might find it incorrect if you do allow variation of race, since more people are likely to be the best races already).

If I may point out a bit of external experience, the hunter section has had a "Best Possible DPS using X's Spreadsheet" for 2 expansions now, and we left race and professions variable, and only locked raid buffs, debuffs latency, and fight duration. We did argue back and forth about race for a while, but left it variable. This led to the best profiles all being Orcs the majority of the time, with occasional periods where it was a Dwarf due to weapon iLvls, but IMO that was more useful than the best profile always being tailored to a random race that doesn't benefit the class. Thanks to expertise racials, I'd think the racial disparity in BiS gear would be even more dramatic for warriors.

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I have to agree for the horde section that using a generic race to determine Best in Slot lists would not work. Considering the fact that Orc Racials completly change the fact where we gain our expertise from compared to an Undead, Troll or Tauren.

For example the Best Possible Orc Fury Setup consists of using [item]47442[/item], [item]47002[/item] and [item]47445[/item] whilst using [item]48399[/item].

If said warrior was also using [item]47480[/item] instead of using [item]48399[/item] then the Best Possible Setup becomes [item]47442[/item], [item]47002[/item] and [item]47473[/item].

For Taurens, Trolls and Undeads however the Best Possible Setup I have found was using [item]47414[/item], [item]47153[/item] and [item]47473[/item], [item]48399[/item] are required to cap expertise with this setup.

I've not done any checking on Arms BiS Setup so I'll leave it to someone else to show the differences between races.

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Type: BiS Rawr Arms Unrestricted

Link: Profiler - Wowhead

Food: Hearty Rhino

DPS: 9539

I get 9539 DPS in Rawr for Unrestricted Arms with this setup Profiler - Wowhead. This is compared to the 9495 DPS from the baseline set (or 9533 when one 20 ArP gem is replaced by one 20 Str gem). I was quite surprised to see 3 pieces of tier; you would logically suspect either 2 or 4. I think this is due to the lack of any well-itemized iLvl 258 helms other than tier.

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Actually, after the weekend considering the impact of Race, I agree with the decision to go with a 'DPS-neutral' race to test with, for the supposition that we are attempting to find the highest DPS gear set, not the highest DPS toon make up. There should perhaps be consideration noted for Orcs, Humans and Dwarves re: attaining the expertise cap, but the race should not adjust depending on the type of weapon that is BiS.

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Now I am in no way an expert, but while looking through the fury gearsets I noticed that the enchant on the boots was cat's swiftness. Wouldn't it be much better to be using icewalker? Icewalker will put you from 7.70% hit rating to the required 8% (8.06% to be exact).

I also noticed that regardless if you click on the unrestricted or the plate only sets, the belt used is still mail belt "belt of deathly dominion".

This is all using the profile rather than importing it into the spreadsheets, I'm not sure if the spreadsheets have the same error or if it was simply bad linking for the profile pages. (the pages are however not the same and say respectivly "BiS LS Fury Unrestricted" and "BiS LS Fury Plate Only"

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Yes, I fully understand the sets are totally borked, and all copies of each other, or otherwise not correct - PLEASE READ my previous comments, and/or the initial post. The sets that are linked to are just placeholders, as I was out of town without computer access over Thanksgiving weekend. I will update them with some real sets that follow each guideline as soon as I get the time - hopefully later this week. In the meantime, use the previous posts in this thread as a reference.

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Now I am in no way an expert, but while looking through the fury gearsets I noticed that the enchant on the boots was cat's swiftness. Wouldn't it be much better to be using icewalker? Icewalker will put you from 7.70% hit rating to the required 8% (8.06% to be exact).

The best boot enchant for any dps (without run speed bonus from talents) is one with a run speed increase. On any fight requiring movement the increase in dps up time generally trumps the minuscule amount of hit and crit from icewalker. Icewalker would be better on Patchwerk but we won't be seeing any more fights like that any time soon.

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The best boot enchant for any dps (without run speed bonus from talents) is one with a run speed increase. On any fight requiring movement the increase in dps up time generally trumps the minuscule amount of hit and crit from icewalker. Icewalker would be better on Patchwerk but we won't be seeing any more fights like that any time soon.

Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question. Considering you would want to use Charge (when appropriate) anyway due to the rage gain, it's questionable how much gain an Arms Warrior would get from having Cat's Swiftness in many cases.

Not saying it's not the right choice, but the argument could be made for Arms Warriors at least that Cat's Swiftness may not increase DPS much (if at all) over Icewalker.

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I am a huge fan of the Engineering nitro boots enchant. While obviously not for everyone, it has saved my bacon more than a handful of times and is my best friend for crossing large distances in NRB and Anub. The hyperspeed accelerators stack very well with death wish for Fury, although I'm not sure if this is modeled by the spreadsheet or rawr.

Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question.

I found similar results. Between intervene, intercept and heroic fury I've rarely had an issue maintaining DPS uptime.

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BiS Fury with unrestricted gear limits and using Rawr (2.2.27). Itemising around not having Heroic Presence.

9624 DPS.

Profiler - Wowhead

The reason the talent spec looks slightly strange is because I encountered a bug. If I tried to add Unbridled Wrath, Anger Management or Improved Bloodrage into the talent tree it actually decreased the dps instead of increasing it.

Flask: Flask of Endless Rage

Food: +40 Strength

Haste Potion was used. It didn't state in the guidelines that this could or could not be used, so I assumed it could.

Would you post this on the Rawr Issue Tracker please? We'd like to investigate it, don't forget to attach the character file saved from Rawr.

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Concerning Cat's Swiftness as the default boot enhancement: While it may not always be the best choice, it certainly provides an undeniably great deal of benefit when it does. There are enough encounters that make this unique benefit worthwhile that it cannot be ignored in a list such as this. While it wouldn't be so much of an issue if you were Fury and sitting comfortably above the soft Hit cap, and therefore more flexible in your gearing decisions (as switching out Icewalker in favor of Cat's Swiftness wouldn't radically alter your level of Hit by pushing it into sub-softcap territory), relying on Icewalker for Hit as Arms (which would be necessary given a single, binary Hit cap) would be problematic in terms of switching it out for those situations where a runspeed enchant provides a necessary benefit.

It can be said that one could always switch out a Str/Crit gem in favor of a Str/Hit one, but this a) assumes that you're using a Str/Crit gem in the first place (not necessarily a safe bet, but more so given the gear level in Icecrown), and b) assumes that once switched, the new setup is indeed the "Best-In-Slot". There's a couple of ways I could go with this, and I'm tending towards the solution that doesn't multiply the number of listings into unmanageable and ultimately useless numbers.

If there's a fight that runspeed doesn't provide much, if any, benefit, then it's easier from these lists to switch from runspeed to Hit/Crit or AP, rather than having to go the other way around, especially given the rather distinct lack of standstill fights in current an near-future endgame raiding.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best that I can see.

PS. Should get some free time this weekend to get in some work on the lists. ;)

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Suggestion: Try to make BiS for each of the races with gear-specific bonuses (Orc, Dwarf, Human, Other) and make separate columns for each.

I know this is a more daunting task with Landsoul's spreadsheet, and I've never used SimCraft. But in Rawr this is nice and easy to do ;)

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Although I would generally agree with this in almost all cases, I've found very few fights where Charge was not sufficient in order to maintain optimal or nearly optimal DPS time on the bosses in question. Considering you would want to use Charge (when appropriate) anyway due to the rage gain, it's questionable how much gain an Arms Warrior would get from having Cat's Swiftness in many cases.

Not saying it's not the right choice, but the argument could be made for Arms Warriors at least that Cat's Swiftness may not increase DPS much (if at all) over Icewalker.

That's interesting you say this. The 55/8/8 incite spec (with weapon mastery) does not have enough points for juggernaut. Are players willing to drop a point in AttT, Cruelty, Incite, or Weapon Mastery to pick it up?

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Normally I only run 1/2 points in weapon mastery as is, so that I have a point for Juggernaut. But that is me.

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Since expertise isn't that great for arms anyways, I drop a point in WM as well for Juggernaut. Its an incredibly useful skill. A must have really.

With juggernaut and stance dancing for intercept, its pretty hard not to stay on your target as Arms.

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Agreed, I typically drop a point in WM for Juggernaut. However, at lower gearing levels when fighting a single target, dropping a point in Incite is probably the better choice.

The issue with that, Ebs, is that 12 listings (already a high number) would quickly spiral into 48. 48 "BiS" listings would not only be hellish to maintain, but more importantly, wouldn't really provide much in terms of usable information (not to mention, that data would be further diluted by the upkeep issue).

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That's interesting you say this. The 55/8/8 incite spec (with weapon mastery) does not have enough points for juggernaut. Are players willing to drop a point in AttT, Cruelty, Incite, or Weapon Mastery to pick it up?

I drop the point from Incite, as I prefer running with only 10 Expertise so that I can cheat on other stats past ArP cap.

Having both Juggernaut+Intercept has proven invaluable for Icehowl/Worm knockbacks, Anub mobility (kiting, getting off patches, etc.) and just general target swapping depending on what the situation calls for.

Can't imagine speccing out of it.

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I have been trying to figure out what 4 tier pieces to get for the bonus, and everyone is saying don't get gloves, and buy the token gatecrashers instead. Being an orc, has anyone considered getting the t10 gloves and crafting the plate pants. I'm getting a slightly higher dps as a result.

*I do not have access to the tribute cloaks. so my choices are the badge ones (they are damn nice) if you go with the crafted pants and t10 gloves you can purchase the expertise cape and you would be good to go. Instead of buying the AGI cape.

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I have been trying to figure out what 4 tier pieces to get for the bonus, and everyone is saying don't get gloves, and buy the token gatecrashers instead. Being an orc, has anyone considered getting the t10 gloves and crafting the plate pants. I'm getting a slightly higher dps as a result.

*I do not have access to the tribute cloaks. so my choices are the badge ones (they are damn nice) if you go with the crafted pants and t10 gloves you can purchase the expertise cape and you would be good to go. Instead of buying the AGI cape.

The next boss in VoA is going to be released soon and if history is any indicator, the t10 gloves will be part of his loot table. If you're not going to be spending badges on the Gatecrashers then you can use your EoFs elsewhere.

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Since expertise isn't that great for arms anyways, I drop a point in WM as well for Juggernaut. Its an incredibly useful skill. A must have really.

With juggernaut and stance dancing for intercept, its pretty hard not to stay on your target as Arms.

A little trick I used in Arms when I needed to put both points into Weapon Mastery and didn't have the points for Juggernaut, is to macro my Defensive Stance followed by intervene, and when trying to get back into melee range I'll select one of the melee currently on the boss and intervene to them. If you find rage to be a problem put a couple points into Tactical Mastery instead of Iron Will or Deflection. I still use this now that I’ve switched to Fury spec along with the Heroic Fury ability to increase mobility in raids. Great for fights like Northrend Beasts, Anub, or even Emalon.

A word of warning though, do not intervene to the tank by accident or you are toast. It also helps to check that your melee target doesn't have more agro than the tank either.

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Guys i'm sory about this off topic but there was a BIS list for heroic and non heroic items on the 1st page of Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet thread, and now is gone, any idea where i can find it or someone can post me a link please? (was kind of a reference to me for raids :s)

Thanks

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Guys i'm sory about this off topic but there was a BIS list for heroic and non heroic items on the 1st page of Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet thread, and now is gone, any idea where i can find it or someone can post me a link please? (was kind of a reference to me for raids :s)

Thanks

They will be listed again. Pretty sure Landsoul is updating it since Lich King drops a pretty nice 2h sword.

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