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Erving

Numbercrunching Iblis Versus The Hungering Cold

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If Gressil still has its original stats, I wouldn't be suprised if warriors and rogues just decide to split them and give priority. Hungering Cold clearly does double duty as a brilliant Tank and Fury weapon, but doesn't even come close to the DPS change a rogue see's upgrading their mainhand to Gressil. Fury warriors are less reliant on weaponspeed.

That said, no guild gets to Kel without a level of co-operation on stuff like that.

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Aren't there like 6,512 posts about this very subject with maybe 1-2 words switched around?

Seriously. What the fuck?

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Aren't there like 6,512 posts about this very subject with maybe 1-2 words switched around?

Seriously. What the fuck?

Since the item only appeard 18 hours ago that would be 361 posts per hour.

But seriously, where is the other thread on this exact subject as opposed to 1 or 2 posts dotted around other threads that have nothing to do with this exact subject?

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But, what does this mean for human sword rogues? Is it more worthwhile to stick with a Thunderfury or Iblis offhand than go with THC, or is it effectively more dps to put the two points from Weapon Expertise elsewhere, and use THC regardless.

One thing to keep in mind is the +6 skill from THC (and the +3 from Sting) aren't a straight +skill once expansion hits, but +skill rating much like crit/hit rating, while Weap Ex should still remain +5 weapon skill (much like crit talents stay +crit%).

And yeah, for daggers, 2/2 Weap Ex + Death's Sting + Bonescythe Gauntlets = win!

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Its a tanking weapon. There is a rogue sword off the same boss, dont be greedy.

It's also the new ideal sword rogue offhand. It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis - don't be greedy, indeed.

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Its a tanking weapon. There is a rogue sword off the same boss, dont be greedy.

Such an inspired and well thought out post, this forum thanks you for your continued contribution.

p.s. rogues dual wield.

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I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Hungering Cold may finally be a weapon that can out agro thunderfury which is saying a lot. It has +skill for when you cant heroic strike 100% of the time, and if you can do it 100% of the time you get more agro there too from the faster speed.

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The fact is that hungering cold vs iblis and hungering cold vs widows remorse comes out about even. I think ou guild will probably just play it by ear when we get there, see who needs it the most at the time :)

No point really planning for it till you know what people need when it drops.

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I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit.....

You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

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I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Hungering Cold may finally be a weapon that can out agro thunderfury which is saying a lot. It has +skill for when you cant heroic strike 100% of the time, and if you can do it 100% of the time you get more agro there too from the faster speed.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

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You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

HC on a tank means the whole raids dps can increase without worry of aggro concerns. As an offhand, i doubt the dps increase will come remotely close to the overall hypothetical raid dmg increase. I say hypothetical because aggro concerns are becoming less and less prevalent in raid boss encounters. Nobody knows blizz's intentions but I doubt they'd completely remove the tank aggro generation aspect of a boss.

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I am quite consistant. Main hands > offhands. A tank main hand is always better than a rogue or fury warrior offhand for total raid benefit. Both are better uses than a hunter main or offhand.

Celandro you had this same exact discussion here a few weeks ago. We read all of your points in that post and we don't need to read them here again. You want the weapon, you think it is better for tanks and you should have priority. Everything you said during the Ibis discussion, can we end this now?

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You do realize that the +skill will affect BOTH MH and OH sword damage in the hands of a Rogue or Dual Wielding Warrior right? I'm not saying it should absolutely go towards a dps class, but it being "less beneficial" in their hands is hardly the case.

Of course I do. And Im very well aware how good +skill is for both rogue and fury warrior offhand (rage gen makes +skill better for warriors though).

Main attributes: high dps, very fast speed, tanking stats, +skill

Main hand benefits: Big boost to raw white dps, excellent for constant damage next swing abilities (heroic strike/poisons), raw dps helps compensate for mediocre weapon based next swing abilities (windfury) and instant attacks (sunder armor/whirlwind), excellent rage generation and rage generation consistancy.

Offhand benefits: excellent for constant damage next swing abilities, +skill will affect main hand, excellent for causing MH extra attack abilities (sword spec/windfury/hoj).

Candidates:

MT - Likely upgrading(?) from a Thunderfury. Assuming this weapon out agros thunderfury in high rage use environments, a big boost to raid dps in many fights

OT - See Main Tank but main benefit is far more consistant agro on adds than any other weapons (including thunderfury since its not proc based) so dps can go all out on adds with less lead time.

Fury warrior (alliance) - Good MH weapon, although agro may be an issue

Fury warrior (horde) - Excellent OH weapon, MH during execute phase. Extra windfury procs may cause an agro issue here too

Sword Rogue - Excellent OH weapon

Everyone else - Sad Panda time

Assumptions: Other weapon drop is similar dps but more crit/hit/ap oriented and slower which makes it a good candidate for Fury MH and Rogue MH, other weapon has equal drop rate

Goal: Fair distribution of both weapons that increases raid dps and hopefully lowers chance of not clearing Naxx each week.

I would give the tank weapon to the tanks (including fury warriors who situationally tank) and the dps weapon to the rogues. This is absolutely no different than giving Widow's Remorse to tanks and Maexxna's Fang to rogues.

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It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

It's the same discussion we had a few weeks back on Iblis. Anyone interested in the lengthy discussion should just go read that one instead.

OK?

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^^^ Does the above post seem strangely at home in this thread? There's a reason for that. Numbercrunch like the thread title says -- don't engage in Thottbotism.

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I have to agree with that, with the limited meleeing hunters do it is very important to make sure that the chance the blow actually lands and with as little mitigation as possible. Hence +swords is definitely an attribute most valuable to Hunters because it achieves this goal in a very optimized way.

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Using my rough equivalencies to get a first-order approximation of which is better as a rogue offhand:

1 skill = 1.2% hit = .75% crit = 19 AP (approximate, don't take as gospel)

Iblis: AP equiv to 15.8+25.3+26 = 67.1

THC: AP equiv to 114

Better stats vs. raid mobs, better DPS, better rogue offhand. (The faster speed for more poison procs doesn't hurt, either.)

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So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

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So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

It depends on whether your raid is threat-limited or not. I would have thought this would be self-evident?

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It depends on whether your raid is threat-limited or not. I would have thought this would be self-evident?

A good point, but it's kinda tough to gauge if a raid is threat-limited without empirical evidence; the numbers don't come through quite as mechanically as rogue dps does. So run the numbers to see what a rogue out to be able to put out with this as an offhand paired with some magical mainhand (Gressil, I suppose), and compare it to your regular threat numbers. A good tank can manage a lot, but a rogue with two 73dps weapons I could see as being a bit hard to keep ahead of comfortably.

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So it's better than Iblis, I would have thought that such a comparison would be self evident? Comparable speed, worse stats perhaps in that it lacks dps oriented bonuses (though it does have +skill) but an increase of 10 listed dps. I would be more curious to see as to whether raid dps is increased by giving it to a rogue to offhand for damage, or a warrior to mainhand for a greater threat threshold. It's incomparable concerning tanking weapons, really. I would sincerely hope that the stupid Thunderfury proc doesn't outmatch it, and the Widow's Remorse cannot really hold a candle since they're similarly built.

Proc based agro can be pretty inconsistant and if you get unlucky TF can have extremely low agro. Proc based agro is also not as good for memory wipes/etc

Some very quick threat numbers from my heroic strike excel sheet.

1200ap 15% crit 0%hit 0skill with no weapon equipped, imp hs, defensive stance + defiance + threat enchant

Hungering Cold: HS Threat: 467.71 HS Rage Cost: 17.899 ThreatPS: 311.81 ThreatPRage: 26.13

Thunderfury: HS Threat: 492.36 HS Rage Cost: 18.017 ThreatPS: 259.14 ThreatPRage: 27.33

This number is also useful:

Hungering Cold ignoring +skill: HS Threat: 488.42 HS Rage Cost: 17.394 ThreatPS: 325.61 ThreatPRage: 28.08

Unfortunately these numbers are a bit misleading since the threat from HS is reduced if you have +skill (yellow damage has no glancings), but does make a point that Heroic Strike is more threat per rage for Thunderfury than HC.

So Hungering Cold vs. Thunderfury

Raw DPS agro estimate: (73 - 53.9) = 19.1 (give or take)

white damage increase from +6skill = ~+4% (note this same increase still applies if 100% heroic strike usage)

rage increase from +6skill = +0-2%

Heroic Strike difference: between (26.13-27.33)/27.33= -4.4% and (311.91-259.14)/259.14=+8.8%

Difference from proc agro ~ -80 agro per second

So for total agro is ~60 agro per second < +4% white damage and rage gain and heroic strike? I don't know. But I guarantee that at least 25% of the time TF will be far lower agro than HC in the first 10s after engage or a memory wipe.

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Fury goes for Hungering Cold and Mal'adeth or is the loss in damage too big to over come with 100% glancing damage?

Can dump the Edgemasters too and put on those gloves from C'Thun too, thats a big upgrade too.

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