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Sinndir

WotLK Healing Discussion v3.3: Icecrown Citadel awaits!

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I'm just left wondering why so many guilds are stacking disc priests, its seems like you would get into issues with Weakened Soul.

Simply because you need 2 Disc priests to keep PW:S on the entire raid. Preemptive PW:S usage is simply needed to reduce the "energy" Saurfang gains to the maximum. While doing this you can easily create group assignments.

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Also, it's beneficial to have more than one Disc priest, because the Divine Aegis bubbles stack with each other, meaning much higher chance to get the shield up to the amount required to fully absorb a tick of Boiling Blood or Blood Nova, thus reducing his Blood power generation.

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As a raiding holy priest who is reluctant to use a Discipline spec, my guild on our 10man defeats of Saurfang have used a two healing strategy. During our 3 kills of him thus far we have used two different healing set ups;

Holy Priest + Shaman

Holy Priest + Holy Paladin

We found it relatively easy for me to help DPS the boss (for around 1.8k) until the first Mark hit, with the Paladin/Shaman solo healing the raid. With this method we could quite easily get Saurfang to around 15% before the first mark occured, when this happened I would simply spam heal the marked person until the fight had ended. We are hoping to experiment with a 1 healer setup in the future, though our dps will have to improve slightly for that to be viable.

A bug I'd like to report in this fight for holy priest is as follows;

If you finish the fight in Spirit of Redemption form you will Not get the achievements, this was rather annoying as I was like this for our first 2 kills. I can also pretty much confirm from my experiences that if you have the mark and enter Spirit form, Saurfang is not healed until it ends.

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My 10m ICC run consists of me as Disc and a Holy Pally. We two heal everything up to and including Saurfang. First week we three healed Marrow for our first attempt. Ele shaman went resto but wasn't needed. Last week we went through it with Disc priest (me) and a Tree druid. No wipes. No Mark of the crusader were cast. I (disc) cover every debuffed , marked target and assist tank healing. Shield entire raid renew on tanks and using PoM every CD.

Our 25man runs with 1 holy pally 3 priest (2 Disc) 1 holy and 2 tree's. Holy pally heals the tanks. Beacon on one spam healing the other. Me and the other disc priest cover raid bubbles tank healing assist and healing the debuffed , marked targets. Druids are just hotting tanks and hotting debuffed , marked targets. Boomkin in the middle knocking back adds along with ele Shaman on left and right knocking back adds. Hunters laying traps after each add spawn is killed to slow them down after respawn. I was Holy for our first attempt there wasn't enough AoE damage for me to feel useful so I took advantage of Disc utility and switched.

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I would delete above post up to and including Jamz2000 post. (Off Topic Thread)

My 10m ICC run consists of me as Disc and a Holy Pally. We two heal everything up to and including Saurfang. First week we three healed Marrow for our first attempt. Ele shaman went resto but wasn't needed. Last week we went through it with Disc priest (me) and a Tree druid. No wipes. No Mark of the crusader were cast. I (disc) cover every debuffed , marked target and assist tank healing. Shield entire raid renew on tanks and using PoM every CD.

Our 25man runs with 1 holy pally 3 priest (2 Disc) 1 holy and 2 tree's. Holy pally heals the tanks. Beacon on one spam healing the other. Me and the other disc priest cover raid bubbles tank healing assist and healing the debuffed , marked targets. Druids are just hotting tanks and hotting debuffed , marked targets. Boomkin in the middle knocking back adds along with ele Shaman on left and right knocking back adds. Hunters laying traps after each add spawn is killed to slow them down after respawn. I was Holy for our first attempt there wasn't enough AoE damage for me to feel useful so I took advantage of Disc utility and switched.

You should follow the same philosophy in your 25 man that you're using in your 10 man, and use more DPS instead of unnecessary healers. We used one of each healer class last week on Saurfang. I shield-spammed the raid (focusing on tanks and second shields on blood boiled people after their weakened soul from their pre-shielding ended), and our resto druid healed any damage that got through that. Our paladin and shaman healed the tank, but the shaman was probably unnecessary. We got our first mark at 3:12, and the boss died 15 seconds later.

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I would like to ask about how most guilds use priests ? My current guild only uses 2 priests for raids 1 disc and 1 holy . While i see that guilds like ensidia have a whole total of 5-6 priests i understand ofcourse 2 of them are shadow . But still that leaves 4 healing priests . Can anyone help with this ? Or i should ask in the main thread about priests in 3.3 ?

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We usually have 1 holy, myself, and 1 disc. Normally we only use 1 of each just because we have an overabundance of resto druids so more than 1 holy is never needed ...and 1 disc priest is sufficient since we can bring in 2 holy paladins if needed. We have 1 alternate holy priest and no alternates for disc at the moment, just because people want a 'main spot' in the roster and not have to sit out or wait for the 2nd run.

Encounters require different things so for instance Anub we loved being able to bring in 1-2 shadow priests to nuke the boss/adds while serving as wonderful passive heals for the groups they were in. Some encounters we bring 1 or none and bring more melee; since we have other equal buffs provided and/or we just have none on at that moment. As for ICC nothing has shown anything special that needs 'particular' heals.. we easily went in with our main composition and blew threw the content so far. I'm sure there will be some 'special' tweaks or abilities needed down the road of course,or at least I would hope so.

A big factor is what your guild is able to provide, who's on your roster full time, are they good enough to bring to raid. If you have the ability to get people that will wait for days online everyday just to get a spot or be able to make your 'dream raid make up' then great for you /jealous. With good coordination and communication really any composition of heals can work or make due--just might take a little longer or be a little more frustrating. :)

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Our guild uses 1 shadow priest, 1 holy, and 1 discipline priest. We usually have a lot of resto druids and shamans around, so more than 1 holy really is overkill. Sometimes our holy priest goes to disc if shields really shine in the fight, like in Saurfang, or they both go holy for more raid healing if we have a prot pally for the -3% damage taken buff, like in the Twin Valkyr.

It really just depends on your group composition. Our raid happens to have 2 holy paladins (including me) who show up to every raid, so more than one discipline priest isn't really needed. Yet, our boomkin usually misses a raid or two so the shadow priest provides the +3% hit buff. Your guild should "use" priests to serve the raid's best interests at the moment, and utilize them to fill in "buff holes" that appear in the raid when other people don't show up (Misery, Renewed Hope).

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Thanks first of all for the responses :) . I am asking since i recently started replaying wow and i have a lot catching up to do .

Our main raid composition is :

2 Holy paladins

1 Resto shamman

1 Resto druid

1 holy priest

1 disc priest

Basically we got 6 good healers that are always there havent really seen anyone offline . However there is another very good priest that wants to join and i am looking to find out how i can make that work without having ppl sit out all the time .

However from what i have been reading here on the forums our setup is pretty much close to optimal and can handle any fight so far . a 7th healer is usually overkill if a fight is executed properly . Non of the priests going shadow is an option as well since we got a shadowpriest that also has 100% attendance .

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O np. Yeah 6 healers is the 'norm' I would say for the average 25 man raid... If the shaman is willing to go dps for the 'set' encounter, it wouldn't be bad at all to run in with the 2 holy priests.When running with multiple holy priests just be sure to set the assignments on who has what groups, that will manage the over healing issues. But sadly it is usually better and way more common to bring more resto druids than holy priests in a raid.-.-

This is the comp. we usually run with (an average encounter with nothing 'out of the ordinary' required' and assuming people all show up Attendance changes everything

1 Holy Priest

1 Disc Priest

2 Resto Druids

1 Holy Paladin

1 Resto Druid

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I pretty much Single handedly shield the entire raid, I'm finding mana to not be an issue at all for me (And thus am stacking throughput). But yeah you don't even need two unless you want another priest focusing on the tanks, watch your raid and refresh the shield on anyone who's lost it or anyone who is taking damage and you should be fine. Raid buffed I can pretty much get one shield on everyone within 30 seconds.

Never have I felt so special! We have been rolling with Me (Disc) A Holy priest, Paladin or two, Druid or Two, Shaman or Two, no real need to do anything special, and on our first real kill we did it without a paladin landing at 3 marks. Discipline priests just Trivialize this, even if you have PVP disc as your main spec I would recommend that if you have no toher discipline priests.

Simply because you need 2 Disc priests to keep PW:S on the entire raid. Preemptive PW:S usage is simply needed to reduce the "energy" Saurfang gains to the maximum. While doing this you can easily create group assignments.

I really don't see how it's required, a single Discipline priest should be able to keep up enough by themselves that you get only 2-3 marks if your DPS is worth anything. I may be one shield short every now and then or something but the damage is not going out there on every single raid member. The only thing you watch for to keep it up instead is if you see someone lose about 13% of their health throw a shield on them if htere isn't one already.

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I really don't see how it's required, a single Discipline priest should be able to keep up enough by themselves that you get only 2-3 marks if your DPS is worth anything. I may be one shield short every now and then or something but the damage is not going out there on every single raid member. The only thing you watch for to keep it up instead is if you see someone lose about 13% of their health throw a shield on them if htere isn't one already.

It's not required per se, but it does help. Holy is horrid for this fight as the damage is not raid wide, but only a handful of targets. If I were holy, I would be bored out of my mind spamming FH like a game of Whack-A-Mole. Disc priests > Holy Priests on this fight due to the CDs they can provide on Mark victims as well as helping shield the raid.

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When we first walked into ICC, we went with 3 tanks and 7 healers. We've obviously cut it down since then, but I would think that 3/7 would be the cautious way to approach new content. (That also explains how on our first kill of Saurfang we wound up with like 6 marks throughout the raid)

I am pretty sure raids are not stacking priests, or any other healing class, over others. There are simply niches that each class does well that are all needed. Plus, no single healing class is overly dominating. You're not seeing the stacking like: stacking shammies for Eredar Twins for CHeal, stacking priests for mass dispel on Felmyst, etc.

I don't see any benefit to bringing like 4 of a certain class at the expense of bringing 1 of another class.

If you are trying to add in a new healer, alot of those concerns just happen from adding a new person into the rotation. People will have to take a break, etc. But, that also may not be a bad thing.

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Our current heal lineup for raid progression is the following:

Holy Paladin x2

Holy Priest

Disc Priest

Restoration Druid

Restoration Shaman

For many reasons, having 2 Holy Paladins is always great. You increase the number of available benedictions, judgements, auras. They are the best to sustain massive damage on several tanks. They have great tools like Hand of Protection or Aura mastery.

Holy Priest and Druid have the highest HPS for raid healing when needed.

Shaman and disc priests can easily switch between tank healing and raid healing in a glimpse.

It is not possible for all raids to have such a healing setup but I really enjoy this one.

For the class stacking it really depends of what your best members are currently playing. We used to have 5 Warlocks in most of our raids because the best players at this time were the warlocks, on the other hand we had only one mage and no shadow priests. Players leave and come and now our caster setup is 1 Warlock 2-3 mages and 2-3 shadow priests (as a consequence we can have up to 5 priests in a raid, and it is not an issue at all).

Bring the player not the class is not a dream!

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For 25-man I run holy and am top healing in my guild for Rotface. However, last night I ran 10 man with an excellent druid healer, and we could not keep the raid up. We especially had a hard time with anyone carrying mutated infection. By the time they were cleansed, they would be at 20% health and then die from radiation before we could get them back up. For the most part, they were rather diligent when running to the OT to be cleansed.

I started the night off running as holy, but after several failed attempts we decided a druid & holy priest was probably not a good combination. Though the tank wasn't dieing, we felt we were neglecting other damage just to keep the tank up. I switched to disc, though my disc is PVP spec. This time I found that the tank was zero problem at all, but when I went to keep up my healer or dps with mutilated infection, my penance was on cooldown and my shield wasn't enough.

The entire night the druid was nearly doubling my healing - even when I ran holy. I attributed the holy low healing due to the fact that my PoM wasn't ideal for this fight? Should I be running this as disc or holy? (I can respec my disc to raid disc.) Is a druid + priest just a bad combo for this fight? What are the bread & butter heals for a priest on this fight? Will changing my disc spec from PVP to raid disc make that huge of a difference? We never got Rotface below 30% before wiping, though everyone in group was a part of our 25 man group that took him down.

If it helps, here is my 25 man log. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

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The damage isn't very spiky-- its more random. In this situation, a resto druid is going to outheal you. They are constantly running HoTs, so that when someone takes a random spike, the HoT will tick before you can heal all of it yourself (thus it becoming mostly overheal). When the damage is more spiky-- you will be outhealing them. In 25 man, I know the damage gets extreme once you hit the soft enrage. This is why you are able to compete on the meters in your logs-- you simply catch up in the end :)

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@ Zamura

Have you tried 3 healing it? If an offspec healer is available, and your dps is good enough to make up for the loss, you might give that a go.

As far as disc vs holy, I think you would do fine as disc. I run as disc 99% of the time and for that fight on 10s, I found my bubbles and PoMs, used as a sorta instant heal on the mutated peeps seemed to work well. Don't be afraid of renewing either. Obviously penance is a life saver as well.

Of course I say this having done the three heal method. Our comp was disc priest, resto shammy and resto druid.

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Our 25m raid healing setup is normally.

2 Holy Pally

2 Priest 1 holy/1 disc depending on the encounter.

2 Resto Druid

1 Resto Shaman

Our WWS from Tuesday. I was the Disc Priest and as you can tell the Holy priest didn't have much to do during the fight. He is a great Holy Priest but the AoE damage isn't there and the Druids HoTs are plenty to cover any raid damage. He would have been better of going Disc and helping me with bubbles. I keep PWS on the tanks and every debuffed character I shield keep shield on them and bounce PoM off a marked target. Penance targeted tank to keep mitigation's rolling.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

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@ Zamura

You should definitely go discipline with a resto druid for as many fights as you possibly can when you're 10-manning. The insane combination of shields and HoTs makes most healing very very easy. With the perfect synergy of letting the HoT actually heal while the shield is there creating a buffer on everybody you don't have to panic. Also for when you actually need the bigger heals you have swiftmend and penance to top the emergency spikes up.

Next time spec discipline and have fun! (except on Putricide where holy is just clearly better).

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I really don't see how it's required, a single Discipline priest should be able to keep up enough by themselves that you get only 2-3 marks if your DPS is worth anything. I may be one shield short every now and then or something but the damage is not going out there on every single raid member. The only thing you watch for to keep it up instead is if you see someone lose about 13% of their health throw a shield on them if htere isn't one already.

Of course it is far from required to finish the encounter. I merely said 2 Disc priests are required if you want to reduce Blood Power gains to the maximum. One Disc priest is simply not as effective as two in the 25-man version.

In theory one Disc priest will be able to roll shields on 25 people before the first one expires again, since a shield will last for 30 seconds and it takes 25 seconds (GCD) to put them up. But with an extra Disc priest you will have more than enough time to reapply a shield when the first shield breaks from damage and Weakened Soul already ran out on the specific target that took damage, while maintaining shields on the rest of the raid.

Next to that with an extra Disc priest you can also use Flash Heal spam on targets without a shield, but with Boiling Blood and Weakened Soul debuffs up. Divine Aegis can reduce Blood Power gains further in this scenario.

There is no way a single Disc priest can handle all this alone while two easily can with clear assignments.

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(except on Putricide where holy is just clearly better)

Why would you say on Putricide holy is better? We got him down to 5% in our 10 attempts in 25man (stupid 10 try rule :/) and I can tell you that disc throughput was way higher than holy. I have always loved holy and thought disc boring but for ICC so far I find that disc shines in almost all the fights. I'm very curious for any reason to go back to holy for that fight, but atm I see very compelling evidence to stay disc for the absorbs. WoL

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I can tell you that disc throughput was way higher than holy.

I would argue that bubble blanketing the raid, while good at scoring a high absorbs per second, is not particularly effective at keeping people alive for aura fights such as Putricide, especially if there are HoTs present on the targets. It prevents small increments of non-lethal damage and forces overhealing on whatever other form of raid-healing you have present. Then when someone makes a mistake and is knocked down to 3% hp where the next tick of raid damage could kill them, you risk them having Weakened Soul when your shield could save their life.

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What are you guys thoughts on replacing the 2piece T8 bonus - I usually end up with 300K+ healing on most bosses with POM and 20% would be a huge loss in my healing output.

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Putricide is all about spike damage, and I would not consider it an aura fight. Like Mimiron, I feel discipline really shines on this fight, but having both a discipline and a holy priest is probably preferable. Since we only got 10 tries on him, and didn't quite get him down, it'd be good to hear more people chime in though.

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I'm assuming you mean the t9 2set bonus with 20%+ to PoM. I think that's an amazing set bonus and am gonna hold on to the 2 set. Gloves+pants or gloves+shoulders are your best bet for t9 (258 is a plus if you can get the tokens).

Putricide disc healing isn't about stopping the aura and having the hots overheal rather i spam shields on ppl that are about to get exploded on by the green slime. Thus what i do is spam shields on low hp ppl and ones that are about to take huge dmg rather than ones at 90% hp

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