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frmorrison

Retribution BiS Lists for 3.3

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==Introduction==

In the context of this thread, "Best in Slot" means the best items assuming you had access to all 25 man items. Note the point of these lists is not that you only should only equip these items; you should use any upgrade even if it is not listed here. There are many different gear variations that are marginally less dps.

The first two lists are based on all Heroic Mode items and whether you are allowed to use only Plate (Strength based but you can use agility items from quests and vendors) Items or All Items and then the final list uses Normal Mode items only. For people interested in how these lists were determined, the bottom of this post lists the FAQ and the settings that were used in Rawr 2.3.19. Post in this thread or use a private message for further questions and explanations.

==Heroic Plate Priority List==

[table=head]Item Name|

Head: [iTEM]51277[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet

Neck: [iTEM]50647[/iTEM]|Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard

Shoulders: [iTEM]51279[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderplates

Back: [iTEM]50677[/iTEM]|Winding Sheet

Chest: [iTEM]51275[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate

Wrist: [iTEM]50659[/iTEM]|Polar Bear Claw Bracers

Wrist(Alliance): [iTEM]51832[/iTEM]|Taiga Bindings

Hands: [iTEM]50690[/iTEM]|Fleshrending Gauntlets

Waist: [iTEM]50620[/iTEM]|Coldwraith Links

Legs: [iTEM]51278[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates

Feet: [iTEM]50639[/iTEM]|Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers

Finger1: [iTEM]50693[/iTEM]|Might of Blight -

Finger2: [iTEM]50402[/iTEM]|Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance

Trinket1: [iTEM]47464[/iTEM]|Death's Choice

Trinket2: [iTEM]50706[/iTEM]|Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Main Hand: [iTEM]50730[/iTEM] or [iTEM]49623[/iTEM]|Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand or Shadowmourne

Ranged: [iTEM]Libram of Three Truths[/iTEM]|Libram of Three Truths

DPS: 12,408 (13,430 with Shadowmourne)|

BiS Heroic.zip

[/table]

==Heroic All Items Priority List==

[table=head]Item Name|

Head: [iTEM]51277[/iTEM] Use one 20 expertise gem in this set|Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet -

Neck: [iTEM]50633[/iTEM]|Sindragosa's Cruel Claw

Shoulders: [iTEM]51279[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderplates

Back: [iTEM]50653[/iTEM]|Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak

Chest: [iTEM]51275[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate

Wrist: [iTEM]50659[/iTEM]|Polar Bear Claw Bracers

Wrist(Alliance): [iTEM]50670[/iTEM]|Toskk's Maximized Wristguards

Hands: [iTEM]50690[/iTEM]|Fleshrending Gauntlets

Waist: [iTEM]50707[/iTEM]|Astrylian's Sutured Cinch

Legs: [iTEM]51278[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates

Feet: [iTEM]50607[/iTEM]|Frostbitten Fur Boots

Finger1: [iTEM]50604[/iTEM]|Band of the Bone Colossus

Finger2: [iTEM]50402[/iTEM]|Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance

Trinket1: [iTEM]47464[/iTEM]|Death's Choice

Trinket2: [iTEM]50706[/iTEM]|Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Main Hand: [iTEM]50735[/iTEM] or [iTEM]49623[/iTEM]|Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General or Shadowmourne

Ranged: [iTEM]Libram of Three Truths[/iTEM]|Libram of Three Truths

DPS: 12,537 (13,708 with Shadowmourne)|

BiS Heroic All Items.zip

[/table]

==Normal Plate Priority Items List==

[table=head]Item Name|

Head: [item]51162[/item]| Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet

Neck: [iTEM]49989[/iTEM]|Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard

Shoulders: [item]51160[/item]|Sanctified Lightsworn Shoulderplates

Back: [iTEM]50019[/iTEM]|Winding Sheet

Chest: [iTEM]51164[/iTEM]|Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate

Wrist: [iTEM]50002[/iTEM]|Polar Bear Claw Bracers

Hands: [item]50037[/item]|Fleshrending Gauntlets

Waist: [iTEM]50187[/iTEM]|Coldwraith Links

Legs: [item]51161[/item]|Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates

Feet: [iTEM]49983[/iTEM]|Blood-Soaked Saronite Stompers

Finger1: [iTEM]49999[/iTEM]|Skeleton Lord's Band

Finger2: [iTEM]50402[/iTEM]|Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance

Trinket1: [iTEM]47303[/iTEM]|Death's Choice

Trinket2: [iTEM]50351[/iTEM]|Tiny Abomination in a Jar

Main Hand: [iTEM]50415[/iTEM]/[iTEM]Shadow's Edge[/iTEM]*|Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter or Shadow's Edge

Ranged: [iTEM]Libram of Three Truths[/iTEM]|Libram of Three Truths

DPS: 10,859/11,054 with SE (12,660 with Shadowmourne)|

BiS Normal.zip *SE is 190 dps better if you can acquire it

[/table]

For an All Items Normal List, use the Heroic list downgrading to the item level 264 version and 264 Bloodfall.

==Ruby Sanctum Patch 3.3.5 Plate Priority BiS==

Neck: [iTEM]50647[/iTEM] =>[iTEM]54581[/iTEM]

Boots: [iTEM]50639[/iTEM] => [iTEM]54578[/iTEM]

Wrist (Alliance): [iTEM]51832[/iTEM] => [iTEM]54559[/iTEM]

Trinket: [iTEM]Death's Choice [/iTEM]=> [iTEM]54590[/iTEM]

==Ruby Sanctum Patch 3.3.5 All Item BiS==

Wrist: [iTEM]Polar Bear Claw Bracers[/iTEM] => [iTEM]Umbrage Armbands[/iTEM]

Ring: [iTEM]Band of the Bone Colossus[/iTEM] => [iTEM]Signet of Twilight [/iTEM]

Trinket: [iTEM]Death's Choice [/iTEM]=> [iTEM]54590[/iTEM]

Boots: [iTEM]Frostbitten Fur Boots[/iTEM] => [iTEM]54578[/iTEM]

Neck: [iTEM]Sindragosa's Cruel Claw[/iTEM] => [iTEM]54581[/iTEM]

==Ruby Sanctum Patch 3.3.5 Normal Mode Plate Priority BiS==

Neck: [iTEM]49989[/iTEM] =>[iTEM]53132[/iTEM]

Boots: [iTEM]49983[/iTEM] => [iTEM]53125[/iTEM]

==Frequently Asked Questions==

When I load your Rawr file, I get a different result. Why is that happening?

Check all settings to ensure they match the ones listed here such as the delay/wait setting are set to 0.2 seconds. It may also help to download the particular list's zip file so you get the exact gems/enchants I used. Rawr's modeling of TAJ and Shadowmourne do not need to be tweaked. If you have Shadowmourne, use this mod FreeMe.zip for more dps.

What is the general trinket ranking?

Tiny Abomination in a Jar(Heroic)>Tiny Abomination in a Jar>Sharpened Twilight Scale (heroic)>Death's Choice (heroic)>Whispering Fanged Skull (heroic)>Death's Choice>Sharpened Twilight Scale>Whispering Fanged Skull>Herkuml War Token>Deathbringer's Will(heroic)>Deathbringer's Will>DMC:Greatness (Strength)>Needle-Encrusted Scorpion>Banner of Victory

What is the general weapon ranking? This compares all weapons and uses the lists above (so hit/expertise is wasted)

Shadowmourne - > Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General - > Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand - > Bloodfall - > Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter - > Warmace of Menethil - > Cryptmaker - > Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General - > Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand - > Shadow's Edge - > Wrathful Gladiator's Claymore - > Oxheart - > Ramaladni's Blade of Culling - > Bloodfall - > Hersir's Greatspear - > Bryntroll, the Bone Arbitert

When do I swap from 2T9 to 4T10?

Using the BiS list with two 258 pieces of T9 (Helm and Gloves), generally it is a dps gain to swap to using the four piece with at one 264 T10 (with the other three 251) in those slots. Using two 245 T9 (Helm and Gloves), it is a dps gain to swap to T10 using four 251 pieces.

How does the ICC raid damage buff affect paladin damage (referred to as Strength of Wrynn for the Alliance and Hellscream’s Warsong for the Horde)?

If affects all damage you deal by 5% to 30% depending on the current buff in ICC (25% in July). It works just like Sanctified Retribution. Rawr has an option to add the various levels of this buff.

What is the best libram?

Libram of the Three Truths is better than Libram of Valiance on a single target if attacking more than 45 seconds and Three Truths is always better for AoE. However due to badge costs combined with a small upgrade, you should not pick it up until you have your 4 piece Tier set first.

Where are the Alliance Lists utilizing the 1% Hit Aura?

If you normally have Heroic Presence, swap out Polar Bear Claw Bracers for [iTEM]51832[/iTEM] or another bracer without hit rating. Alternatively, you could swap out the neck slot to one without hit rating (such as [iTEM]51842[/iTEM]). Note that you may not see any dps increase swapping out your hit items even past the cap (if you do not have a similar item level replacement).

Should I use leather gear since in 4.0 it will be weaker than plate gear?

If you are able to get the good leather, I would go ahead and use it. It is a good idea to pickup strength-based items to help your leveling slightly.

What is happening to ArP in 4.0?

Armor Penetration is changing to Haste or Crit, depending if the item had Crit, then it gets Haste, otherwise you get Crit.

Will I be able to keep my ICC items at level 85?

As you are leveling in Cataclysm you likely will want some of the new Mastery items. It may be the most powerful stat (until a certain point) in 4.0. Other than the Mastery items, your gear with enchants and gems likely means you should keep it until level 83-84.

==Assumptions used in Rawr==

Professions: Blacksmith/Jewelcrafting (Engineering is slightly higher dps than either of these most of the time, but Rawr does not model it correctly resulting in lower dps in Rawr so it is ignored).

Glyphs: Judgement, Seal of Vengeance, and Consecration

Enchants

Head: [item]Arcanum of Torment[/item] Shoulders: [item]Greater Inscription of the Axe[/item]

Chest: +10 stats Back: +22 Agility Wrist: +50 AP Gloves: +44 AP

Legs: [item]Icescale Leg Armor[/item] Boots: Icewalker or Greater Assault depending on the hit rating of the set.

Weapon Enchant: [iTEM]Formula: Enchant Weapon - Berserking[/iTEM]

Gems

Normally use [iTEM]Bold Cardinal Ruby[/iTEM], one [item]Nightmare Tear[/item], and [iTEM]Inscribed Ametrine[/iTEM] in yellow sockets that activate a 4 strength bonus (check Rawr for other bonuses to see if it is worth it).

Buffs

These lists use all buffs except for Focus Magic and Heroic Presence; for consumables use Flask of Endless Rage and +40 Strength Food.

Options used:

Fight Length - 60 minutes Mob Type - Undead Seal: Vengeance Target Level: 83

Below 20% time - 18% Stacked Trinket Reset: 1 Target: 1 Time in front of the mob: 0

Consecrate Effectiveness: 100% Bloodlust is checked Target Switches/HoR effectiveness: 0

Priority List:

Use the FCFS priority of Judgement>Crusader Strike>Divine Storm>Hammer of Wrath>Consecration>Exorcism>Holy Wrath (if a valid target). Use the mod clcret to help you follow this priority.

Addressing server/human lag:

Delay and Wait are set to 0.2 seconds to simulate in-game lag and keypress lag (SnowfallKeyPress and G15/Autohotkey will help with these delays).

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Thanks for starting the thread. My list so far is fairly similar.

I've bolded the differences:

Wrist: Toskk's Maximized Wristguards (Heroic)

Waist: Astryllian's Sutured Cinch (Heroic)

Trinket2: Whispering Fanged Skull (Heroic)

Trinket1: Death's Choice (Heroic)

Shoulders: Cultist's Bloodsoaked Spaulders (Heroic)

Ranged: Libram of Valiance

Neck: Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard (Heroic)

Main Hand: Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter (Heroic) or Shadowmourne

Legs: Sanctified Lightsworn Legplates (Heroic)

Head: Sanctified Lightsworn Helmet (Heroic)

Hands: Sanctified Lightsworn Gauntlets (Heroic)

Finger2: Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance

Finger1: Band of the Bone Colossus (Heroic)

Feet: Frostbitten Fur Boots (Heroic)

Chest: Sanctified Lightsworn Battleplate (Heroic)

Back: Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak (Heroic)

Gemming/enchanting caveats:

10 STR/10 Crit in yellow sockets only in +4 str socket bonuses

One +20 expertise red gem, the rest are +20 STR

Greater Assault to boots, 23 haste to back, all other enchants are standard

DPS: 11698 (Bryntroll)

Highest DPS Rotation: DS>J>CS>HoW>Conc>Exo

For the Whispering Fanged Skull (heroic) model:

AP: 1250

15 second duration

35% on melee hit

45 second ICD

For reference I got 11674 using your BiS list and the described settings. I know until we all have the same frame of reference w/ respect to weird things like procs, it'll be hard to get something definitive.

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I would like like to mention that with the stat changes coming for cataclysm (such as removing ap from AGI-based items) it would probably be in your best long-term interest to avoid AGI items wherever possible. While for progression they may be nice, setting up a BIS set using AGI will mean you get very little effective time out of it, since precedence shows that the major expansion mechanics are implemented a few weeks before cataclysm goes live.

Just something to keep in mind.

That being said, excellent work so far. I'm happy to see 5pc T10 up there, it's a very well itemized set and that's what I was expecting to see.

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For reference I got 11674 using your BiS list and the described settings. I know until we all have the same frame of reference w/ respect to weird things like procs, it'll be hard to get something definitive.

I modeled Bryntroll as a 15% chance on meleehit to do 2230 shadow damage (I added that manually). I also added a few 4 strength socket bonuses while using Inscribed gems. I also added 200 strength to Shadowmourne, to somewhat account for the buff it gives. Also, I required the sets to have at least 5% expertise when using Seal of Command, so the set loses a few dps on single target bosses by having some extra expertise.

Whispering Fanged Skull I didn't know how to model the attack power proc (what % chance is it)? Assuming it was 35% chance to proc with 45s ICD, it would be slightly better than Death's Choice (245). I will change that item.

Also the new FCFS rotation in Rawr 2.3.2 was acting strangely, I am not sure which rotation it is using (I added a few rotations there and it didn't change the dps).

I would like like to mention that with the stat changes coming for cataclysm (such as removing ap from AGI-based items) it would probably be in your best long-term interest to avoid AGI items wherever possible.

I agree that agility based items aren't that great to use looking at the long-term 4.0 changes, but that is maybe a year from now and I know there is someone out there that wants to know the absolute best items.

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The other somewhat interesting finding is that 2P 258 T9 / 2P 277 T10 is only barely below full 4P 277 BiS by ~100 DPS. Something to keep in mind as you start upgrading and shifting set bonuses.

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Is the reason the T9 libram is showing to be higher due to the "hidden" swing in regards to weapon procs on Byrntroll and Shadowmourne?

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Is the reason the T9 libram is showing to be higher due to the "hidden" swing in regards to weapon procs on Byrntroll and Shadowmourne?

The T10 libram isn't modeled in Rawr so it isn't on the lists. The hidden SoV swings that can proc Byrntroll doesn't affect any librams.

The T10 libram would show up best in Rawr once it is in there. However the T9 libram can be considered superior due to its lack of any ramp up time. Which you choose is largely a matter of choice and specific encounter.

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The other somewhat interesting finding is that 2P 258 T9 / 2P 277 T10 is only barely below full 4P 277 BiS by ~100 DPS. Something to keep in mind as you start upgrading and shifting set bonuses.

Which pieces of each is this utilising might i ask?

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I figured as much. And true, it doesn't affect librams - brain fart on my part.

However the T9 libram can be considered superior due to its lack of any ramp up time. Which you choose is largely a matter of choice and specific encounter.

I wouldn't really think the T9 libram would get much use at all once we've upgraded to the T10 one. There really isn't a fight where we're on a single target for less than 45 seconds, except for maybe Gunship if you're assigned to kill the mage.

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Is the proc chance known on Tiny Abomination in a Jar? Rawr shows 35% chance proc which if you can use all the hit, makes it almost on par with death's choice i245. If the proc ends up being higher, this will definitely end up being a very interesting and valuable trinket to have.

It seems this trinket would also scale with any gimmick fight where you receive increased damage as well such as twins valks and any ICC fight where you get a damage buff.

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Is the proc chance known on Tiny Abomination in a Jar? Rawr shows 35% chance proc which if you can use all the hit, makes it almost on par with death's choice i245. If the proc ends up being higher, this will definitely end up being a very interesting and valuable trinket to have.

It seems this trinket would also scale with any gimmick fight where you receive increased damage as well such as twins valks and any ICC fight where you get a damage buff.

I haven't seen any report of it from the PTR, and it likely never dropped given how buggy Putricide was during the PTR. However I wouldn't be surprised if this trinket is subject to some of the seemingly endless number of "hidden melee" strikes that we benefit from so its DPS may be underestimated at the moment.

As it stands though ilvl 264 Whispering Fanged Skull appears to be superior to ilvl 245 Death's Choice.

Which pieces of each is this utilising might i ask?

258 T9 shoulders and gloves, 277 T10 helm and legs. I've attached the Rawr file. From my tweaking thus far it looks like 2P T9 / 2P T10 is actually superior at the ilvl 264 level, but starts to lose out once you add ilvl 277 tier pieces into the mix.

2P92P10.zip

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What about Deathbringers will? 600str/1200ap/ or 600haste proc for 30seconds by 90sec internal cooldown? I thought that would be one of the best trinkets

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I'm not sure of the validity of the effectiveness of the new trinket. Comparing the 264 version with DV 245:

DV 245:

Passive 256 AP, w/ 450 Str proc lasting 15 sec. Assuming you proc once per min, you can treat it as 450 str * 1.1 * 1.15 * 2 / 4 = 284.625 passive AP. Adding in the passive 256 and you get roughly a passive 540 AP.

WFS 264:

Passive 148 crit w/ 1250 AP lasting 15 sec. Can treat it the same as above: 1250 AP / 4 = 312.5 passive AP.

The difference here is 227.5 AP vs. 148 crit. Assuming Redcape's stat weights of 114 for crit and 81 for AP, we get an effective stat weight of 227.5 * 81 = 18427.5 for DV and 148 * 117 = 17316 for WFS. The difference here is roughly 6.5% in effective stat weight favoring DV 245.

Not sure if my math here is completely right, but it seems to work for me. The main point here is that you are trading 227.5 AP for 148 crit when switching from DV to WFS, which even by eyeballing doesn't seem to be a good trade.

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I'm not quite sure I understand the choice of trinkets. In rawr both Death's Choice still are rated at the top, while you have Whispering Fanged Skull listed.

My question is why is that?

Thanks in advance.

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I'm not quite sure I understand the choice of trinkets. In rawr both Death's Choice still are rated at the top, while you have Whispering Fanged Skull listed.

My question is why is that?

Thanks in advance.

I listed the reasoning in my FAQ. I manually added procs in (the default Rawr doesn't have them).

For someone looking at the ranking of trinkets:

DC (heroic)>Whispering Skull (heroic)>DC>War Token>Whispering Skull>>DM:Greatness>Deathbringer's Will(heroic)>Deathbringer's Will

I'm not sure of the validity of the effectiveness of the new trinket. Comparing the 264 version with DV 245:

Assuming Redcape's stat weights

Not sure if my math here is completely right, but it seems to work for me. The main point here is that you are trading 227.5 AP for 148 crit when switching from DV to WFS, which even by eyeballing doesn't seem to be a good trade.

Rawr doesn't use Redcape's stat weights (which use Redcape's gear, not BiS gear so aren't valid for this list). Rawr is taking into account all the numbers. However Death's Choice (245) is better than Whispering Skull (251). Note you can only have one trinket of each this tier (you can still have two DC).

frmorrison, a minor mistake for your BiS Heroic.zip, you forgot to put berserking on the weapon.

Fixed.

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How do you put the effect of Deathbringer's Will into Rawr?

I may have modeled incorrectly. It has a 50% chance to proc a buff for 30 seconds with a 105s ICD. I just used 600 crit rating as the buff amount. The better way would do to 200 (233 for heroic) haste/crit/str to account for either three coming up, since there is no favored buff. It doesn't change the rankings though.

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One method would be to input the proc as a 30 second buff that grants 200 STR/Crit/Haste on a 105 second ICD. However I'm inclined to model it as the worst case scenario (600 haste) given the huge variation in DPS that the trinket can provide. Let's assume a 5 minute encounter.

3x haste procs: 315 DPS ; a bit higher than Wrathstone

3x crit procs: 383 DPS ; slightly below STR Greatness

1x of each proc: 402 DPS; slightly below STR Greatness

3x str procs: 502 DPS ; slightly below 245 Death's Choice

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A few questions, Since someone mentioned it, I was curious, does anyone have a double 2set BIS list,.... im guessing it would be near the same, ... probably just switch out the shoulders and helm or something near that?

And as far as a BIS list for Non-herioc 277 gear, would there be a any changes or could you switch out all the 277ilvls with their non-herioc versions, and still hit the exp/hit caps and still be at maximum dps for that gear level, OR at the 264 level would double 2set pull ahead of the actual 4set 264?

EDIT: Went in and switched around all the herioc items to their 264 version, removed icewalker, and put on tier 9 helm and shoulders, and still hit both caps and got a total of 10762 dps with BS/enchanting. A few items do seem to get switched around, for example, the 264 deathwhisper neck is a little worse than the boe trash neck, also sylv's cunning >264 gunship cloak, other than those minor upgrades, not much actually changes. Been a long time reader, but im new to posting, and cant figure out how to upload an attachment on this forum :(

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A few questions, Since someone mentioned it, I was curious, does anyone have a double 2set BIS list

cant figure out how to upload an attachment on this forum :(

Double 2 piece (T9 and T10) don't meet the definition of BiS as listed in the OP. The normal mode gear list cannot include 258 for ToC (that is from a heroic mode), so with two 245 T9 you are better off with four 264 T10 (but it is interesting that with two 258 T9 and two 264 T10 the dps is 100 higher than with four 264). So a normal mode raider has a reason to try to get heroic Anub.

Only benefactors can link files on this forum, so free feel to just give a gear listing or link to a file sharing site if you want to share a specific gear listing with others.

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I have just discovered a different combination for the normal mode gear, wich is slitely better without frostmourne.

Head - Tier

Neck - Infected Choker - Professor Putrice (10m)

Shoulder - tier

Back - Winding Sheet - Rotface (25m)

Chest - tier

Wrist - Polar Bear Claws - Gunship battle (25m)

Hands - tier

Belt - Etched dragonbone gridle - Sindragosa (10m)

Legs - battle maiden leggards - Prince Valanaar (10m)

Feet - Blood Soaked Stompers - Lady death-whisper (25m)

Ring1 - Skeleton Lord's Circlet - Gunship (25m)

ring2 - Ashen veredict of endless vengeance

trinket1 - Death choice 258 - twins

trinket2 - Death choice 245 - twins

Weapon - Cryptmaker

Rawr dps = 10667

with an special flavor in it, no skirts.

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DV 258 = Hard Mode Twins = Don't qualify for normal mode

On the other hand, the idea of "normal mode only" lists is to provide reasonable aspirations for guilds that aren't raiding cutting edge content. TOGC25 is no longer cutting edge; you can outgear it with ICC normal loot. That makes DV258 accessible to the non-hardcore raider.

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Weapon - Cryptmaker

If you have been following the various discussions,there is proof that Bryntroll is the best normal mode item. Cryptmaker is 2nd best of the normal mode boss drops. Actually, I don't know where Shadow's Edge lies among those items.

On the other hand, the idea of "normal mode only" lists is to provide reasonable aspirations for guilds that aren't raiding cutting edge content. TOGC25 is no longer cutting edge; you can outgear it with ICC normal loot. That makes DV258 accessible to the non-hardcore raider.

Heroic Anub is harder than the first four ICC bosses, but ICC does get harder. I agree that a normal mode guild should try to get Heroic ToC, but the normal mode list is normal mode items only.

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