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Kasi

Are we all Elitist Jerks?

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This actually happened in my guild. We had a new player come in from a different raiding guild who had the best work ethic and highest level of skill and knowledge of his class by a fair margin, but was such a raging jackass that within a few weeks he was basically given an ultimatum by the officers to either play well with others or find a new home. Happily, he did take the comment to heart and things worked out and now he's a valuble part of our raid force.

To be fair tho, we've had other people who came in with the same attitude and less skill, who got the same ultimatum and couldn't work it out. They didn't last long.

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and being on loatheb/gothik you're not exactly "progressing slowly." You describe a mature guild situation that also is doing extremely well.

Thanks, I just meant to point out that we might be able to progress a bit faster if we were more cutthroat and replaced some of the people who tend to cause problems, but then we wouldn't be who we are.

Maskirovka--are you Russian?

I first came across the term maskirovka in a Clancy novel (Red Storm Rising maybe?) so who knows. It's a cool word/concept, however.

Yep...got it from the Tom Clancy book Red Storm Rising ...it was the word the Russian general used to describe his uber plan to deceive the West. I think the word literally translates as 'camoflage'. I've used that nick forever (cs, forums, email, etc), but it didn't exactly fit into a WoW character name, hence my profile being different =p

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Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

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Ah, I had no idea it was mentioned in English novels. (I hadn't thought of it as particularly cool though--it just means camouflage/costume (costuming? Not sure what the gerund of costume would be) to me. How did Clancy explain it?)

Google says:

The Soviet Military Encyclopaedia defines maskirovka thus: "The means of securing combat operations and the daily activities of forces; a complexity of measures, directed to mislead the enemy regarding the presence and disposition of forces, various military objectives, their condition, combat readiness and operations, and also the plans of the commander... maskirovka contributes to the achievement of surprise for the actions of forces, the preservation of combat readiness and the increased survivability of objectives." It permeates down to the lowest tactical level and includes all measures, active and passive, designed to deceive the enemy. Although the word is sometimes translated as 'camouflage', this belies its much broader meaning which includes: concealment (skrytie), imitation using decoys and dummies (imitasiia), manoeuvres intended to deceive (demonstratinvnye manevry) and disinformation (dezinformatsiia). - source: Jon Latimer, Deception in War, The Overlook Press, Woodstock & New York 2001

Sorry for the derail.

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Man this is a great thread - amazing how these just pop up and take off.

Pontiac, I'd be careful... the ultimatums generally don't work out. When its attitude, that generally will be there for a lifetime. As praetorian already mentioned, its hard to teach attitude.

I used ot just kick straight up when people were drama whores or assholes... I gave a few people "chances" or ultimatums and it always bit me in the ass. I've gone back to being a tyrant about drama, but our members seem to enjoy the atmosphere it creates in the end... One person can ruin the game for everyone else; you might be shocked how many people quit this game cause of 1 interaction... and 60 members in a handshake problem is a metric fuckton of interactions to deal with.

Ghostz: I agree, but we're also qualifying things. Everyone will blow up; the best leader will have his bad nights and get more upset here or there... but when we're talking about assholes and whatnot, its the type that is like that nonstop, or just gets on people's nerves... or has no concept of fitting in or diplomacy.

Part of the problem here was already mentioned - the anonymity of the internet grossly inflates some people's personalities or egos... and it can turn an otherwise nice guy into a flaming jackass. As long as people mutually respect each other, are mature, and DO NOT DEHUMANIZE the other players, anyone can make it happen.

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It depends on what you consider being an elitist jerk and what you want from the game.

Even the nicest people get fed up sometimes. If someone consistently misses the jump on Thaddius then runs in and zaps half your raid on 80% of your tries, you can't expect people that haven't made a mistake all night to keep saying "its alright, we'll go at it again" wipe after wipe. It just gets frustrating after a certain point and someone's bound to call them out. Does that make them elitist jerks? Depends on your point of view.

Obviously. Few things are black and white. I'm sure if you think of your guild -- any guild pretty much -- you can name some people who are more patient and conciliatory in their approach to the game and to interacting with others, and you can name some people who are more prone to get defensive or hostile in the face of adversity. No group is going to be perfectly homogenous, nor would you really want that, but if you're looking to build a cohesive unit (as well as a group that's fun to play with) I think most people in the thread here are in agreement that you need to draw the line on attitude somewhere, "skill" be damned.

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Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

Its elitist to not roll with a pug?

Thats just statistics, PUGs generally take much longer to complete. I value my time, thats not elitist.

I know i'm nitpicking your one example, but I don't think "staying in the guild" is elitist.

Most people don't interact with those outside of their guild REGARDLESS of their guilds progress. Niche isn't elitism imo... although it may appear that way as the guild improves. The cool kids club is just business as normal right?

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Yep...got it from the Tom Clancy book Red Storm Rising ...it was the word the Russian general used to describe his uber plan to deceive the West. I think the word literally translates as 'camoflage'. I've used that nick forever (cs, forums, email, etc), but it didn't exactly fit into a WoW character name, hence my profile being different =p

Oh, snap. Too bad, I've found surprisingly few Russian people in this game (the only one that I know of was kind of a royal asshole, too). Perhaps they're all on the EU servers.

Quigon, I think there is quite a range of attitudes. The talk here has tailed into that of the assholes. Yes loot whores and assholes who try to ruin the guild/atmosphere are one thing. And for sure those people aren't ones I want around. But what I'm talking about is a guild atmosphere of elitism and arrogance that you're better than other people/guilds out there. So not much eltitism on an individual level, but on a guild level. You can see this to an extent on how pugs are looked upon by most people here and on FOH. Some people would rather cut off a finger than run with a pug, because of the perception of what the average pug is. Although the catch 22 there is that pugs are often the best way to find new people. But each horrible experience with a pug reinforces the divide between your guild/friends and the rest of the people on the server.

I think most people who are guilded look on PUGs with somewhat of a holy terror though; it's not just a matter of guild level elitism. With your guildies, at least there's a bit of quality control. With an "u goin 2 ubrs?" pug... there really isn't. I don't even view that as elitism, if it's just a "Man, I hate PUGs" kind of attitude. If your guild members are completely unwilling to do a run if it's not a guild run, though, it may be a problem. Sometimes you have to PUG stuff, and being completely isolated from the rest of your server might not serve you well in the long run if you recruit. :)

Gurgthock: Obviously I need to brush up on my military Russian.

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I hate to make stereotypes nezralix, but it just seems to me there are a lot more retards on alliance than horde... and this isn't due to the population imbalance, I mean a disproportionate amount. Back in the day this was particularly obvious with open world matchups...

Maybe i'm way off base here, i'm also talking about generality - at the top end alliance guilds are exceptional and obviously as good or better than horde. This isn't an attack on raid guilds or OMG BLESSINGS... just general alliance populace. RACISM!

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I'm echo the "Not wanting to go in a PUG doesn't mean you're elitest" view. We've all done that 3 hours UBRS run where things item's get ninja'd, people leave after getting to Rend because they didn't get their Dal'Rend, etc., etc.

Although, I think prior to your final gear up to MC or ZG that everyone should be forced to PUG a few times. You might meet some good, skilled players who are just in a small guild and like you, are being forced to PUG. Those friendships can develop, and before you know, you've got some new guild mates.

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The derail was a pro one, but yes...we should keep a great thread like this on track.

and 60 members in a handshake problem is a metric fuckton of interactions to deal with.

Excellent way of putting it. I've seen exactly what you mean by people quitting the game because of one interaction WAY too many times, and it's always the assholes who make the nice, good, players leave......and this usually means you resent the asshole even more, possibly losing 2 players in the process.

As long as people mutually respect each other, are mature, and DO NOT DEHUMANIZE the other players, anyone can make it happen.

Completely agree here as well. When I recruit new players (at least recently...we all learn as we go) I always tell them not to disappear into obscurity. I tell them that if they want to be successful, they have to interact with their new guildmates as much as possible. It's way too easy for new people to hole up and never talk. If they never interact, they're just "that guy". They become too easily dehumanized by others, including possibly myself if I'm not constantly careful to try and give people the benefit of the doubt....at least at first.

edit: added the "at least at first" =p

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Brick: Merging players like that is going to cause problems regardless of your skill level.

I won't disagree with you. It's bound to result in all sorts of issues.

Part of the issue, notably with a new server, is the recruitment pool is relatively shallow -- being Horde on a PvE server somewhat compounding the problem. We didn't have the luxury of having a dearth of folks that had well-aligned mentalities to pre-form with a reasonably sized roster.

Additionally, we weren't hesitant on following up on policies. The first 3 weeks would appear as if I was cutting bloody swathes through the roster -- axing literally dozens of people who weren't online for over a week, or were too busy in Level 19 WSG instead of meeting our level requirements. I'm aware that several of our members found it a bit unsettling, but the vast majority know why it had to occur. Things are stabilizing now, but we're still expecting attrition of 1-2 folks a week for the next month.

-----

How do you handle the wee ones amongst the titans? Yeah, not simple. We're hitting ZG this upcoming weekend, and MC/Onyxia in two weeks (with the intention of full clears that week and getting FR prepped for Vael). Currently I've been taking advantage of 5-man instances and UBRS to gauge player skill and to at the very least make notes. Folks however have been approached with constructive suggestions, and many seem to ask on their own -- whether officers or their peers.

Again, there's that shallow recruitment pool, which is quickly absorbed by several other guilds with similar intentions sponging up talent. Momentum is everthing we've learned -- and we're hoping that quick success in the MC will again result in talent from other guilds looking to come on board. Realistically, I'll have some dead-weight and folks who can't do par for the course for some time -- I'm just looking to address those issues as quickly as I can (which will include removal from the guild) until I can get more quality folks on baord. Until then, yes, I do anticipate the skilled folks calling out the greenies at times. They just need to be constructive about it, and we need to be on the ball in swapping more skilled players into the raid, and at least giving an attempt to get the novices up to speed.

-----

Is my plan guaranteed? Hell no. If anything, I'm still more likely to fail than not. However it won't stop me from trying my damnedest.

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Well, you can teach skill, to an extent. You can't teach attitude. If someone is a raging asshole, you're not going to change them over the internet. If someone has a great attitude but is not the best of players, that can be improved. Obviously yeah, some people are just hopeless, but those are a slim minority.

That's not 100% true. In my guild we have a 15-year old Mage who is possibly the most annoying person you could ever have on vent - he has (or had, rather) the tendency to make a suggestion, usually bad, and assert it loudly and repetitively. He's also got one of those voices that just gets under your skin. He was actually kicked from my roommate's guild a few months back just for being obnoxious and whiny, despite that guild being pinched by a low-attendance period.

I didn't think he'd last long as a trial, but with some advice and warnings from our GM (I'm assuming), and judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal, he's actually improving. He's always been a pretty solid Mage and he's slowly becoming a solid member of the team. It's heartwarming in a way, just think how bitter he'd grow up if he was always shunned because of his personality ;) While I'm sure his youth has quite a bit to do with it, you CAN teach attitude.

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Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

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judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal

So you haven't really taught him anything, you're just selectively ignoring his personality?

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Perhaps a different strategy that I describe below should be used for the "top guilds" since when competing for world firsts time plays a large factor. By which I mean, you wouldn't always have the luxury of spending a bit more time working with a player.

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

That is not to say, though, that there are not times when people are just beyond any help. Then, it's time to cut your losses. I guess that's more of a judgement call.

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Malthrin: I used ot be a raging asshole when I was 15 also - playing DooM 2 and totally raging on n00bs... but yeah, some of that is probably growing up. Between 15-18 people change a LOT in their ability to deal with others.

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Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

Does every league have its own Rangers?

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So you haven't really taught him anything, you're just selectively ignoring his personality?

Nah, they're effective ways of letting him know he's going too far. Negative feedback, in the psychology sense. He still can be abrasive from time to time, but rarely anymore to the point that he gets muted.

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I was going to bring up the same thing, Malthrinn. We've had several players who started out to be total dickwads and are now productive members. Sure they still tend to have some underlying selfishness still, but I believe it's mostly due to being young. We've never recruited an older player (most of our guild is college+ age) who turned out to be an asshole that I can remember.

Though, I agree that you can't teach attitude in a serious way, but you can definitely make that person understand that their attitude is unacceptable and won't be tolerated. It can change a lot more than you think, though like I hinted...they're not going to be your #1 herb farmer, and they probably won't pass any loot.

Of course it's not foolproof, and some people are just flat-out worthless people who can't be molded at all...but that's what /gkick is for.

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When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

When it comes to B...I don't know how everyone else feels about this but, to me, becoming effective and being capable of adapting quickly in the wow raiding game isn't some monumental task. If you have average intelligence almost everything in this game should come fairly quick and fairly easy to you. If someone wants to join a guild to raid and can't comprehend a fight's mechanics after a few days then there is a huge problem there. I don't care how eager someone is to improve, if they can't improve fairly quickly they just don't cut it. If wow involved having people complete transcendental math functions then it would be understandable, but almost everything besides the actual job of creating strategies seems like something akin to doing mcdonalds-level labor. I've heard and experienced a multitude of the "they're not that good but they're willing to learn!(and a girl too most likely)" and I'd rather have some immature player who is good at what they're doing and capable of being an asshole without compromising raid execution than the very eager players who can't understand how heal correctly after being told countless times.

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I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

Good point. There are a lot of potentially good players that just don't know where to start. I've seen a Warrior go from the very stereotype of the "PUG dps warrior" to the main tank for a BWL+ group. He realized why it was that myself and the other Priest in the guild didn't want to 5-man with him, did his research on tanking mechanics and abilities, and got better.

Here's another question: is there a distinction, skillwise, between those motivated enough to test mechanics and crunch numbers, and the other group who learns well and plays according to the conclusions of the first group? Put another way, is there much of a difference between those who l2p, and those who are self-taught?

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I've played with a fair share of completely reprehensible older players, in previous guilds and games. It's not limited to youth, not by a mile.

If anything, it's worse- age provides time and experience at camouflaging personality!

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Anyone noticed that no other threads have moved an inch in the last 40 minutes? ;)

There's a lot to be said about general player interactions on vent and in-game outside of raiding. I hop onto our Ventrilo at any time of the day and I'll hear people blabbing away, talking about this or that, comfortable chatting and joking around with each other and in the past, I've gone onto other guild's vent and it felt like walking into a giant freezer with almost no communication going on at all.

I absolutely adore my guild for the cozy atmosphere they create. We have to drop the hammer on boss-fights and such on occasion to stop the chatter going on (which, often includes myself), but I'd much rather be amongst a well meshed unit of friends with people of below average to excellent skill than a member a zombified army of content-destroying WoW heroes.

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My guild is universally considered, it seems, to be elitest jerks, and a variety of more colorful names, on our server. We have been first, or second, to every boss kill/instance finish including MC, and though we're pretty far behind real world first guilds, we're currently pretty far ahead of the server.

That said, while we value progression, we raid 3 hours a night, 5 on fridays, because most of us work 40+ hours a week, there is almost no cursing on vent, we try very hard to prevent blaming, and singling out, we try hard to treat each other, and OOG's with respect, and we have a lot of favorable relationships with other guilds.

All that said, the forums/many other guilds still hate and revile us as elitest jerks. When we pitched the idea of selling our unneeded drops in MC, we were cursed and ridiculed. When we offered the server the chance to watch the gate opening, we were vilified, etc. Not to say we never made any mistakes, but we have tried fairly hard to be as positive a force as we can be for the server, and yet, regardless, we're considered to be Elitests who are just the meanest, nastiest people ever.

I'm a 34 year old father of 3, married, and half of our guild shares my profile. We have some younger kids who are entertaining, and amusing, and like to trash talk, and we have a few guys very impressed with their own epeen, but I try and keep everyone on an even keel, and I think on the whole, we are.

Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

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