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Kasi

Are we all Elitist Jerks?

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Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

And then there are some entire guilds of griefers. Literally, there are guilds who get props from guildies for getting threads made about them (on the realm boards) for griefing or other douchebaggery.

So, yeah, while there are people who are going to mis-interpret/characterize any guild they come across for no other reason than that guild being "better at the game", there are also an extreme number of assholes that play the game. Sometimes those assholes form guilds.

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So if a guild is thought of by the rest of the server or by other guilds as being a bunch of EJ, how in turn does that guild view them?

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I'd like to chime on on the subject of PuGs, and the attitude of the common player towards endgame raiders.

When I was a little noob, way back in north freeport I saw a level 50+ paladin with a sword that was ON FIRE!! I asked him about it, and it was obvious to him that it was my first day playing the game. he was unbelievably nice, helpful to a fault, even to the point of taking me aside and explaining how to make a few simple macros. Since then, I always viewed the "Uber" with respect, and understood that behind all the leet pixels is a normal person who may be nice or may be a prick.

I think that most casual players automatically view endgame players either in awe or in disgust, and most probably have a similar story from early on in their careers that explains why they feel the way they do.

Since I have concentrated on raiding and have ended up in a successful endgame guild, I have experienced both treatments. tells from people complimenting me on my gear, and people who tore me a new one when I happened to suggest a particular course of action in a PuG.

i think that the people who blindly hate are the ones who got shit on by someone in shiny purplez early on, and learned to view anyone who spends the time to get that gear as an elitest prick. its kind of funny to think of a 20-30 year old man who just picked up the game as a child, but really when you are first starting out in an mmo, you are childlike in your innocence and the degree to which other people can affect your "development"

in short, they were abused as children!

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When it comes to B...I don't know how everyone else feels about this but, to me, becoming effective and being capable of adapting quickly in the wow raiding game isn't some monumental task. If you have average intelligence almost everything in this game should come fairly quick and fairly easy to you. If someone wants to join a guild to raid and can't comprehend a fight's mechanics after a few days then there is a huge problem there. I don't care how eager someone is to improve, if they can't improve fairly quickly they just don't cut it. If wow involved having people complete transcendental math functions then it would be understandable, but almost everything besides the actual job of creating strategies seems like something akin to doing mcdonalds-level labor. I've heard and experienced a multitude of the "they're not that good but they're willing to learn!(and a girl too most likely)" and I'd rather have some immature player who is good at what they're doing and capable of being an asshole without compromising raid execution than the very eager players who can't understand how heal correctly after being told countless times.

No, it's certainly not hard, and that was sort of my point. Playing effectively requires you to understand the main mechanics; if you don't understand those then nothing is ever going to help you. The thing that makes a good raider is one who knows all the little complexities that are obvious to some and not so obvious to others. I'm not suggesting: recruiting someone who is mentally deficient and working to improve them because they are eager.

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No, it's certainly not hard, and that was sort of my point. Playing effectively requires you to understand the main mechanics; if you don't understand those then nothing is ever going to help you. The thing that makes a good raider is one who knows all the little complexities that are obvious to some and not so obvious to others. I'm not suggesting: recruiting someone who is mentally deficient and working to improve them because they are eager.

The thing is that most people who can be improved by what you say don't come off as "not good but eager to improve." If you have that ability to comprehend the complexities then you seem like every other raider right off the bat.

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No, I think you can get places with skilled players who loathe each other. The problem is that once you get somewhere, a loot dispute will nuke the guild into oblivion.

EDIT: Please note that you can be elitist without being a jerk, and you can be a jerk without being elitist. It's one thing to generally agree that somebody sucks at the game, but it doesn't mean you have to treat them worse than you'd treat somebody who just burned your house down. A lot of people seem to get into that habit, and then they start just being incredibly judgemental towards anyone and everyone who they haven't played with for a year, like going off on a priest because there wasn't a bubble on them immediately after a mortal strike (when you assume you're better than everyone else, it doesn't take much to prove it to yourself).

Until I started reading these forums, I had no idea that guilds who were elitist but not jerks existed. Alot of people in the thread have described my dream guild. I unfortunately am on a server where all the raiding guilds are both elitist and jerks. And this attitude hasn't gotten them very far. There's not a single guild on Horde side that has gotten C'thun, and this is an original release server. The top Horde guild on the server constantly loses members, who turns around and recruits members from guilds below them, and those guilds have to recruit from lower guilds, etc. My own guild has this elitist attitude towards our own members, and we're not very good at all progression wise. I am just about ready to spend my $25 and get out of dodge.

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My general rule of thumb is to focus on what's fixable versus what isn't. If someone is a mediocre player because they just don't know the tricks of the trade, that can be fixed. However, that presumes the person is willing to learn and can take constructive criticism.

Attitude is tougher to fix. Whether it's being a skilled jerk or a crappy player who refuses to learn, making these recalictrant individuals improve isn't always possible. I've had limited success sitting some folks down (figuratively speaking) and explaining to them that the need to change. When combined with a sharp yank on their chain to grab their attention, that's occasionally enough to bring them to heel.

However, if those folks won't bend, then I try to leave them by the wayside. The jerks will end up being toxic influences in the guild. The consistently mediocre end up as an anchor on the rest of the guild. Both types generate frustration and dissatisfcation with the guildies you want to keep and that leads to dreaded Drama.

Computer issues are really beyond your ability to influence, but unfortunately they still matter. Everyone has random issues, so that's tolerable. But if a raider's connection is always unreliable, their contribution to the raid can't be counted on. And when you're stretching your raid's ability to master a new encounter, reliability takes precedence.

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Here it is.

If your guild is full of skilled players who loathe each other you won't get anywhere. The same can be said about having a guild of tight knit friends who absolutely suck. It's a balancing act.

I've been in both of the types of guilds mentioned here, skill first, and personality first. Maybe its just me but I felt far more at home in skill-first guilds than I did in the "family oriented" guild of which I was a part. Something about insipid "family members" who don't even raid filling g-chat with intolerable nonsense, or seeing those same people invited to raids, knowing they aren't pulling their own and that they are being babysat made it an unenjoyable experience. Then again, in skill-oriented guilds I've invited people to come raid with me, sometimes people I've known and liked for multiple years, that I KNEW were personality risks, thinking, maybe he can hold it together or maybe hes matured. They've let me down every time. A good player who isn't sustainable in a raid/guild environment for a long period of time is a loot black hole who isn't worth anything.

The best thing to do is look for people with guild dedication (people who've been in one guild for a long time). Thats one thing thats universal and that will bring people together. You can have abrasive dramatic personalities, you can have people who are subpar skill-wise, or who are raging elitist jerkoffs but if at the end of the day you know (or just think, whether its true or not is immaterial, its the perception that matters) that they care about the guild thats something you can respect. If you trust that the guy who just blew you up on Thaddius is as livid about it as you are because he honestly gives a shit, its a lot easier to not be mad at him. Similarly, when someone tells you to L2P faggot, its a lot easier to take coming from someone whose been there for the wipes with 100% attendance, who stuck around during attrition periods, whose farmed consumables, than from someone who left another top guild on the server due to drama and has just recently joined, even though the message is exactly the same.

So the moral is: don't go too far on either end of the spectrum. People who are unwilling to improve or don't care whether they do or not are worthless. People who are so abrasive they damage your raid chemistry are worthless.

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Does every league have its own Rangers?

I don't know, but Horde is definitely the National League.

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My guild is universally considered, it seems, to be elitest jerks, and a variety of more colorful names, on our server. We have been first, or second, to every boss kill/instance finish including MC, and though we're pretty far behind real world first guilds, we're currently pretty far ahead of the server.

That said, while we value progression, we raid 3 hours a night, 5 on fridays, because most of us work 40+ hours a week, there is almost no cursing on vent, we try very hard to prevent blaming, and singling out, we try hard to treat each other, and OOG's with respect, and we have a lot of favorable relationships with other guilds.

All that said, the forums/many other guilds still hate and revile us as elitest jerks. When we pitched the idea of selling our unneeded drops in MC, we were cursed and ridiculed. When we offered the server the chance to watch the gate opening, we were vilified, etc. Not to say we never made any mistakes, but we have tried fairly hard to be as positive a force as we can be for the server, and yet, regardless, we're considered to be Elitests who are just the meanest, nastiest people ever.

I'm a 34 year old father of 3, married, and half of our guild shares my profile. We have some younger kids who are entertaining, and amusing, and like to trash talk, and we have a few guys very impressed with their own epeen, but I try and keep everyone on an even keel, and I think on the whole, we are.

Moral of the story, even if you are nice people, for the most part, everyone will assume you are elitest jerks based on your progression/any bad apples, and you'll be vilified as elitest jerks regardless of the truth.

Because of the history behind Juggernaut, you're going to have to deal with the reputation(s) Heaven and Earth and its old members had. You're considered elitist jerks because there are many of your members who are, in fact, elitist jerks. I'm not here to call people out or any of that, but I knew some members of both the old Heaven and Earth and the now Juggernaut before they joined, and I must say they were far more humble and, dare I say, human before they started picking up their "phat lewtz".

It's just the way the guild is. I can't explain it. It's just how you guys operate. It never bugged me all that much, but the rest of the server sure seemed to have it out for you. At least Juggernaut has earned the "top dog" status to go along with the hate, unlike Unwanted Prophecy, hated server-wide for the immaturity and rudeness of its members.

On the subject(s) of MC drops and the gate opening...Well...Both of those had their own problems, both in the method of approach and in the execution. Drama fueled by both jealousy and inner guild turmoil is not a good way to conduct business or events.

I hope you'll one day be able to dissociate the name Juggernaut from Heaven and Earth, but I think that day will be a long time coming, Cherise. Good luck to you though.

-----

Credo of an Elitist Jerk

I am a min/maxer. I crunch numbers to make my character better, and expect others to have at least a minimal understanding of basic game mechanics. I am a loot whore. I will take every item I can that is a significantly substantial upgrade from a current one, and I will feel very good about it. I am an asshole. I don't accommodate stupidity. I am a good guild member. I show up, I do my job, and I go the extra mile where possible. I am humble. I learn from my mistakes, and improve myself from them. I have a sense of humor. I will not take offense if my guildmate calls me a spinach squeezing mushroom stuffer, or some other vicious name. I am myself. I do not change who I am for others, be they my guild leader, an officer, or someone I like or despise. I am honest and straightforward. I do not beat around the bush or coddle an issue looking for the best white lie to get myself out of dealing with it, instead bringing such an issue to the table and resolving it. I am responsible. If I am unprepared or I make a mistake, I own up to it and make amends if necessary. I am loyal and determined. I am not a fair weather guild member, and will not duck out of a guild event if the going is tough.

Most of all, I am an elitist jerk. I'm better than you, and I know it.

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I won't disagree with you. It's bound to result in all sorts of issues.

Part of the issue, notably with a new server, is the recruitment pool is relatively shallow -- being Horde on a PvE server somewhat compounding the problem. We didn't have the luxury of having a dearth of folks that had well-aligned mentalities to pre-form with a reasonably sized roster.

Additionally, we weren't hesitant on following up on policies. The first 3 weeks would appear as if I was cutting bloody swathes through the roster -- axing literally dozens of people who weren't online for over a week, or were too busy in Level 19 WSG instead of meeting our level requirements. I'm aware that several of our members found it a bit unsettling, but the vast majority know why it had to occur. Things are stabilizing now, but we're still expecting attrition of 1-2 folks a week for the next month.

-----

How do you handle the wee ones amongst the titans? Yeah, not simple. We're hitting ZG this upcoming weekend, and MC/Onyxia in two weeks (with the intention of full clears that week and getting FR prepped for Vael). Currently I've been taking advantage of 5-man instances and UBRS to gauge player skill and to at the very least make notes. Folks however have been approached with constructive suggestions, and many seem to ask on their own -- whether officers or their peers.

Again, there's that shallow recruitment pool, which is quickly absorbed by several other guilds with similar intentions sponging up talent. Momentum is everthing we've learned -- and we're hoping that quick success in the MC will again result in talent from other guilds looking to come on board. Realistically, I'll have some dead-weight and folks who can't do par for the course for some time -- I'm just looking to address those issues as quickly as I can (which will include removal from the guild) until I can get more quality folks on baord. Until then, yes, I do anticipate the skilled folks calling out the greenies at times. They just need to be constructive about it, and we need to be on the ball in swapping more skilled players into the raid, and at least giving an attempt to get the novices up to speed.

-----

Is my plan guaranteed? Hell no. If anything, I'm still more likely to fail than not. However it won't stop me from trying my damnedest.

I posted a lot in a thread on RnD a long while back (How to fix a Mediocre Guild thread) about the problem of limited populations. It's not just a horde problem- although Horde tend to have it worse overall.

How do you balance a desire to raid and progress against the server populations- especially when you may not have the "appropriate" population to cull from. At the moment my guilds ideal candidates would come from a guild farming C'Thun and just learning Nax. On my server there are 3 questionably "tops" guilds. Us with 7 bosses in Naxx. One with Twin Emps and one boss in Naxx. One at Huhuran and with 2 bosses in Naxx. Horde side only one guild has killed the Twin emps- and they only got that kill this month. To make things worse (recruitment wise) those two guilds are pretty much rock stable at the moment. We've already cannibalized one "top" guild and have been recently picking through the remains of one of the runner-ups that imploded. We only take 56 active raiders total (7 for each class) and we're currently recruiting 7ths in almost every class. (Priests should be closed but we can't find solid druids for love or money so we're recruiting an 8th priest and a 6th druid)

We get a lot of apps. We have to cull out the folks who we simply cannot gear- We're not running MC and even BWL gearing is tight because once we get a little further in Naxx we may have to drop BWL for more progress. Healers especially (since we can't use 2.5 as a healing set) have to come in with a good chunk of T2 or equiviliant. We cull out the folks with terrible reputations- we have a very solid reputation on server for not engaging in asshattery and we try to maintain that. We cull further for people who can/cannot play nice with the guild members we've already got. There has to be a working enviroment that's not tained by people trying to suck eachothers blood and maim eachother. We don't vote on players, but we do take the guilds general impressions in hand and if a guildmember simply doesn't see a way to play with a player- the feelings are that strong- we let them go. (This happens surprisingly rarely)

After that point the 6 people interested in your one spot have been whittled down to 1, maybe 2. If you're really amazingly lucky you've got 3 solid apps. Then we have to cull the people who can't make that learning leap- We don't have the time anymore to teach our new players to keep up in BWL- they have to immediatly be able to jump into farming C'Thun and preform in Naxx. We can't spend more than the 5 hours we have allocated to AQ40 in there- or we fall behind in Naxx.

You can afford to be generous or evil if you're on a server with 4+ guilds at your level in progression. You can afford to offend skilled players by just kicking them for stupid attitudes- You can afford to take a chance on someone who might not be all that great, but comes with excellent attitutde and gear. The level of your applicants is likely to be higher in terms of skill and gearing. At that point it's not elitiest to pick and choose the nice folks... but they're all on a similar level of gear or skill.

Horde side or in general on servers with skewed progression- being anything less than elitiest can push your raiding to a grinding halt. Technically we could zerg recruit- but the moment we opened zerg recruits and just took folks who could learn and could gear and who have nice attitudes- we'd lose entire portions of Naxx that we barely have on farm status anyways. We'd have those heart attacks on C'Thun when we realized that there were too many unskilled players and the encounter was backsliding off farm status (there's nothing more terrifying to me to be truthful). We watched the guild that had been ahead of us prior to AQ40 recruit nice folks in bulk and dissolve in a horrible screaming agony infested drama mess after downing Huhuran. We learned from thier mistakes (and took several of thier best players).

-------------

Is it possible? Perhaps. Our guild has a pretty good reputation on server and one of the goals we hang on to for dear life is to keep that reputation while still managing to recruit the kind of players we need to progress... keeping that balance ocassionally makes raiding hard. We had 2 weeks where we came to patchwerk with 14 healers and realized we simply couldn't do him with the 16 healers (total guilded) we had on our roster. We had to kick healer recruitment into overdrive.

I wouldn't call us super duper nice guys who love everyone- although our players know to keep thier grievances and attitudes private. As a general rule we've gone from a mess of in-guild drama "I hate him he hates me!" to only a few drama llamas- and those are being smoothed out as the months fly by.... it's taken a lot of work, a shared vision among the longest-term officers, and very very careful recruiting.

Is it something possible for a guild starting 40 man raiding now.... months behind the top guilds? I'm not really sure it is. I know we get a chunk of our applicants because we're the top guild on server. We have a large amount of choice. A guild just starting molten core just doesn't have applicant pools deep enough to organize a "perfect" raid.

I think it's too early to start trying to form up a "perfect" TBC guild. There's still several months of thumb twiddling to go before it launches and the best of the best folks won't be satisified with farming ZG/AQ20 until december. The best bet would probably be to start a massive recruitment campaign when TBC drops and hope to cannibilize the castoffs and discontents from the top guilds that decide that cutting to 25 is the way to go... and to be relitivly picky about who you pick up.

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Credo of an Elitist Jerk

I am a min/maxer. I crunch numbers to make my character better, and expect others to have at least a minimal understanding of basic game mechanics. I am a loot whore. I will take every item I can that is a significantly substantial upgrade from a current one, and I will feel very good about it. I am an asshole. I don't accommodate stupidity. I am a good guild member. I show up, I do my job, and I go the extra mile where possible. I am humble. I learn from my mistakes, and improve myself from them. I have a sense of humor. I will not take offense if my guildmate calls me a spinach squeezing mushroom stuffer, or some other vicious name. I am myself. I do not change who I am for others, be they my guild leader, an officer, or someone I like or despise. I am honest and straightforward. I do not beat around the bush or coddle an issue looking for the best white lie to get myself out of dealing with it, instead bringing such an issue to the table and resolving it. I am responsible. If I am unprepared or I make a mistake, I own up to it and make amends if necessary. I am loyal and determined. I am not a fair weather guild member, and will not duck out of a guild event if the going is tough.

Most of all, I am an elitist jerk. I'm better than you, and I know it.

:911:

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Until I started reading these forums, I had no idea that guilds who were elitist but not jerks existed. Alot of people in the thread have described my dream guild. I unfortunately am on a server where all the raiding guilds are both elitist and jerks. And this attitude hasn't gotten them very far. There's not a single guild on Horde side that has gotten C'thun, and this is an original release server. The top Horde guild on the server constantly loses members, who turns around and recruits members from guilds below them, and those guilds have to recruit from lower guilds, etc. My own guild has this elitist attitude towards our own members, and we're not very good at all progression wise. I am just about ready to spend my $25 and get out of dodge.

I feel for you. It's better on alliance side, where the glut of players means that there are multiple guilds comprised of decent people and decent players. Thanks to the nature of the game, I can join chat channels or use guild chat, turn off general, and enjoy it without being hindered by the 'jerks.' (Then again, when word gets out, there's a massive influx of applications...)

:911:

not-all-jerks-black.gif

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thank you for following the last line of the "credo of an elitist jerk" when making that post chocula

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I've played with a fair share of completely reprehensible older players, in previous guilds and games. It's not limited to youth, not by a mile.

If anything, it's worse- age provides time and experience at camouflaging personality!

It's absolutely worse with age. Younger players tend to still be developing their personality, and if given advice/gentle nudges will often listen and try it out - if it works well, they might even adopt the advice. Older players tend towards calcified personalities, just as people tend to stop changing as rapidly as they age. While younger players might be more likely to be annoying, they're also more likely to grow out of it, which is why I've always disliked blanket "No one under X age" policies - I've run into some very good players in the 12-18 bracket, whose weakness tended to be a lack of understanding when to shut up.

As to PUGs - a PUG is going with people I don't know. If a group of end-game players is going to run a quick UBRS to BWL attune an alt/get an Evisc book for someone/whatever, I don't mind going, because that isn't a PUG.

I am an elitist, and sometimes I'm a jerk. It's the way I am. Sorry?

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I don't know, but Horde is definitely the National League.

I don't know about a Rangers, but I guarantee you most servers have a Neifi Perez.

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Its common for many people to develop a hardened attitude towards those not in their "clique" as time progresses. Family, work, team sports, friendships, guilds, etc its more or less the same.

For anyone who has rolled on a new server, you see this behaviour frequently. A guild starts out with nice people, a few jerks, as people tend to raid more with the same people week after week they view people outside the guild as clueless noobs.

Application forums are always a strong tracking system, you'll see after a few months whenever someone with underpar gear applies a few people will chime in with "gtfo noob your gear sucks" or similar comments, all of whom were previously very nice and were in fact in that same noob gear condition themselves.

Its just a (sad?) fact of human psychology, we have strong imperatives to form mental groupings of people and rate ourselves as better or worse. Works great in politics and religion too.

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oh ho ho, that's so cute! they think they're Elitist Jerks too *smirks*

Heh... typical newbie attitude I guess huh Chocula?

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The best thing to do is look for people with guild dedication (people who've been in one guild for a long time). Thats one thing thats universal and that will bring people together. You can have abrasive dramatic personalities, you can have people who are subpar skill-wise, or who are raging elitist jerkoffs but if at the end of the day you know (or just think, whether its true or not is immaterial, its the perception that matters) that they care about the guild thats something you can respect. If you trust that the guy who just blew you up on Thaddius is as livid about it as you are because he honestly gives a shit, its a lot easier to not be mad at him. Similarly, when someone tells you to L2P faggot, its a lot easier to take coming from someone whose been there for the wipes with 100% attendance, who stuck around during attrition periods, whose farmed consumables, than from someone who left another top guild on the server due to drama and has just recently joined, even though the message is exactly the same.

Bingo. Couldn't have put it better myself.

In the context of the guild that I run (the result of a twin raid guild merge), this is the single most critical thing I have used to mould the new guild into shape.

Taking two groups of players, who are both interested in raiding and progress, but in very different styles, can be an absolute nightmare to manage, both ego and logistic wise. So far, the people that have quit or that we have cut have been the ones who's attitude quite simply didn't fit the character of the guild or the people in it. Whether it was kicking up a fuss about RPP or loot, or someone saying something out of line, we have unconditionally been better off without the people that quit the guild over something that petty. When your guildmembers are fiercely loyal and dedicated to the collective soul of a guild, that is something you cannot buy, and you fuck with it at your peril.

When it comes to players, in my mind nothing is more important than attitude. He can be the second coming of Sun Tzu, be part of the Blizzard design team, and wear shit that doesn't even exist yet, but if the guy is a cock and everyone in your guild hates him, cut the fucker quickly because he will kill your guild.

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If figuring out what went wrong after a wipe degenerates into bickering and a blame game (because, of course, Elitist Jerks never do anything wrong and it's always someone else's fault) things will get derailed in a hurry.

True story, in my previous guild when I caused wipes, there was one time I didn't immediately own up to it - because I had taken off my headset and was cursing myself out (You know that habit a lot of people have of jumping around like idiots? Yeah, I'm sure you know how this one ends, but the punchline is C'thun). Funny that most people seem to remember my calling them out on their wipes/deaths (after a moment of silence for them to have the opportunity to own up - in hindsight, I was unique in the owning up). Weird how the guild has subsequently exploded.

Gurgthock's Law, imo.

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Obviously, there are guilds out there that do well in raid progression while being nice people, but it is the harder route. If you have split priorities (progression and ethics), you're not going to do as well as someone with only 1 all-consuming goal. Since it is a self-selecting process, you will find that most of the 'top' guilds on your server/faction have progression as their over-riding goal.

Most replies on this thread talk about how you should never allow drama queens, assholes, jerks etc into your guild - that's a no brainer, any smart guild focusing on progression will do that. However, if these same individuals are only assholes to people outside the guild, thats normally tolerated, if not exactly encouraged (though some guilds actually do seem to encourage it). Towards their own guild members, these 'jerks' are sincere, helpful, committed, skilful players - and in most cases, they aren't acting.

What about the elitist aspect? Any successful raiding guild will have tons of applications to go through. Reading/trialing/accepting only the best is simple common sense - I wouldn't call that elitist. The real test is whether the guild culls players who no longer make the cut. I'm not talking about players with poor attendance or poor attitudes. I'm talking about faithful players who are trying, but simply don't have the reflexes or intelligence to learn the late AQ40/Naxx encounters in a timely manner. You know they're trying because they farm pots, and do well on Damage/Healing on trash pulls, but somehow they're also the ones who die more than others on fights like Sartura, Twin Emps, Anub'Rekhan. And they do get better on these fights over time, it just takes longer. An 'elitist' guild would gkick these people no matter how long they've raided with the guild, as soon as a trialee proved himself over them.

So how would you go about building a successful guild that wasn't comprised of elitist jerks?:) Its a chicken and egg problem. You don't get enough good applicants to choose from until you have progression, and you won't have progression until you mass recruit and cull. To get to the point where you can start being more choosy about your applicants, it is necessary to take in some people who are jerks but controllable enough to still be an asset and others who are too casual and uncommitted to go far but better than nothing for now. Basically, you need enough bodies to start up. Once you start doing better, you can slowly weed these people out. Of course, to choose this path, you yourself have to be a 'jerk'.

That said, my current guild is pretty close to the ideal of success without compromising principles (I'm pretty sure we have a very good server rep), but it took a long time, a ton of effort, and quite some luck to get there. It would have been much easier to follow the cut-throat method.

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That's awesome Kaubel.

Hearkening back to earlier posts in the thread: I think 'skill' beyond a basic level of human intelligence is, for better or worse, relatively unimportant. WoW is not a very challenging game, more or less anyone with a modicum of competency can pick things up. On the other hand, if you are an irrevocable curmudgeon, you're pretty much boned - you can't be taught not to be a self-centered prick. A good example of the former is a rogue in my guild, a woman IRL, who was initially putting out very poor numbers - but she had a great personality and a strong will to improve, so I worked with her, helped her change specs, understand the basics of rogue mechanics, and now she is one of our top DPSers and having a lot of fun raiding. It's a fun success story.

I guess it's just as well I groomed her as a raiding rogue since I'm taking 24 units and working this semester, and have no time to play myself :(

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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is terminal.

Harsh as it sounds, it's dead accurate. The good thing is, as said, WoW is not challenging, so the bar for stupidity is set pretty low.

As far as good players who loathe each other - they will work for a while, but inevitably they will explode. I was a sort-of casualty of this, I joined a guild that appeared to be strong and going places, but decided to merge 'our best' with 'their best' (where 'their best' was talking of another guild on the server who were almost universally disliked, to the point other raiding guilds nominally in competition with each other would work together on world spawns against this loathed guild). Needless to say, this new guild lasted about six weeks and exploded.

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