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Kasi

Are we all Elitist Jerks?

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But if items are being 'forced' on every raider across the board, then eventually the dkp balances out (i.e. you might have been forced 2 items, but so have the other rogues... in addition when mages/healers etc get 'forced' to loot items you earn more dkp as well).

So forcing items means the balance of dkp ends up about the same (relatively speaking), but you end up with a raid that is much better equipped overall, due to fewer disenchants.

I very often 'horde' my points and try to save them for items that will be the biggest upgrade, by passing on items for others to take. But if an item is looking like it might get disenchanted ill happily take it irrespective of where it will leave me points wise.

So assuming it was forced on you first, what if the item drops that you want, and since you were forced that item, you can't take the item you really want anymore because someone else has higher DKP?

EDIT: Unless of course the DKP is taken after everyone has the item, which I take it wouldn't be the case.

I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

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I just don't understand forcing DOWNGRADES upon people if they don't want it at all.

Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.

Anyway, our rule is and was that any upgrade will be looted, even if it's situational and even if it's not a gigantic upgrade.

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Lucky for you that isnt whats being discussed here.

That was in response to Chimp, who quoted me (in which I had wrote "complete downgrade" there too, for instance, if Arcanist Robes didn't have FR they'd be a complete downgrade from the blue PvP robes - but of course, it does have FR, so that's besides the point), and I added the edit to clarify my point.

Sorry if there was any confusion about that, my first statement was probably too general to really have mattered, and should not have been included in the post. I was just thinking about my own personal experience, where I waited approximately five months to get C'Thun Mace. If I wouldn't have gotten it due to things being forced on me, I would've been slightly irritated. :)

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Sorry if there was any confusion about that, my first statement was probably too general to really have mattered, and should not have been included in the post. I was just thinking about my own personal experience, where I waited approximately five months to get C'Thun Mace. If I wouldn't have gotten it due to things being forced on me, I would've been slightly irritated. :)

That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

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That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

I was never able to see past this point myself until I became an officer, so it'd be rather unfair to expect this of one's guildies. That said, more and more of them 'see the light' as the weeks go by, and we're patient with the rest.

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That's because your overriding concern is me, and what I want. For the greater good of the guild it doesn't really matter who the mace goes to, and by forcing loot on people the guild progresses overall.

Sure it does. We are not one of those guilds with 40 strong people who all contribute equal to the guild.

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Did someone hijack your account? How did you possibly last long enough to make over 100 posts on these boards posting like this? Why are you Capitalizing random Words? Do you realize that you just sat down and typed out a post featuring the words "carebear" and "butthurt"?

You have a valid point beneath all of that, but when you post like a ranting stereotypical hardc0re internet kid, that obscures anything you might be trying to communicate. Stop.

Sorry, I thought that with posts calling people assholes, jerks, and stating "I hate stupid people" the term 'carebear' was within my limits. I don't want to dilute my ability to convey my message by having people label me wrong just because they think I'm a jerk.

I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

For every story on here about some asshole screaming over vent every time someone messes up and ruining the raid, I could tell you about someone who ruined a raid because they flat out refused to perform out of spite after being upset. The people who take offense to jerks and let them get to them, are as much responsible for the drama and wipes as the jerks themselves. Letting someone's attitude get to you will only serve to either fuel their anger toward you, or give them satisfaction that 'they pwned you'

Going back to Proeliata's example; I don't believe that leaving the raid, going afk, or purposely wiping the raid again would serve any good purpose, even if it makes you feel better and that you've proved your point, most people aren't going to be seeing things through your eyes and may consider you to be the asshole. You don't have to be like me and return the insults, it's probably better that you don't, I don't claim to be a very good person. The sayings "two wrongs don't make a right" and "be the bigger (better?) man" both apply nicely to this situation. Ignore the outburst, mute the guy on vent, and quietly allow the raid to continue for the sake of the other 38 people that just want to move on to the next boss. Place a complaint against the guy with one of the officers (or whoever handles that sort of thing in your guild). If his behavior is deemed unnecessary and unwelcome, he'll be asked to change his ways or face other punishment. If his behavior is deemed perfectly acceptable, that should serve as an indication that this guild may not be the right one for you.

As far as the subject of forcing loot, I would like to think that everyone would take items that will benefit the guild in some way, I would also like to think that everyone will pass on an item if they know someone else will benefit far more from it. We all know that's not always how it is. A priest with The Widow's Embrace certainly won't be 'benefitting the guild the best' by taking the Scepter of The False Prophet over a Druid using Jin'do's Hexxer, but if he desires it and has enough DKP, he can win it. I can certainly see how forcing loot would help prevent people from becoming "weapon collectors" and cause their character to continually improve (gearwise anyway)

Of course, this brings into question how you determine what can be 'forced'. Looking at the long term, there's very few items from AQ that are worth taking as a healer when compared to items from ZG or the potent set bonus's from T2. I'd doubt there's even a half dozen items in AQ that would benefit a healer in full T2.

For the record, my guild charges nothing for resist gear, which is assigned by the officers based on attendance and guild rank. I don't think anyone wants to pay for items that are needed for progression on 2 fights in the game.

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I will never understand the capacity for bad attitudes to affect how other people play a game. Is morale such an issue that you have people incapable of achieving the same results from a fight just because they're butthurt? If I were to call you a Noob, why would you let that effect you to the point of proving me right? Wouldn't your goal be to prove me wrong? I personaly don't want to raid with the kind of people that can't perform to (within reason) the same degree every time and actually want to succeed, the ability to not involve personal problems in your gameplay is one of the most important qualities in a raider for me.

A common male point of view from a psychological standpoint. Take a look at the coaching for Little League teams and consider before getting worked up though =P

There are many ways of leading a crowd, and what the right way is depends entirely on the group composition.

Think about these leadership styles and compare/contrast.

Kindergarten teacher.

High school physics teacher.

Boys little league coach.

Girls softball coach.

Small office manager.

Middle management in a major corp.

Sales manager.

If you present a group of 5 year old children to a sales manager and tell him to teach them thier colors- he's going to be totally out of his element. You can't even take the same basic motivational strategies from kindergarten to the sales office- they don't work.

Most leaders will have a very distinct style no matter who they're teaching or leading, it's how you adapt to the unique situations that determines how sucessful you are.

Our guild is about 25% female with an age range from 18-40's. Pushing our guild to suceed through talking down to them simply doens't work. The more negative we get- the worse our preformance goes and it just spirals downhill until someone in charge catches it and forces a smile on thier face and positive thinking. Keeping things upbeat and interesting with (tasteful) joking around and participation shoots our efectivness through the roof. It has nothing to do with being buttsore and everything to do with getting everyone in the right frame of mind. Degrading folks ot try to force them to preform better and prove you wrong is one way. Staying upbeat and analyzing the situation while talkign over ways to make it better (without being degrading) is another way to force the same changes. Our players are interested adults- we recruit for people who like to puzzle solve and feel comfortable with the more positive attitude we keep in raids.

One, vocal, negative attitude can make our entire raid feel like those 3-5 hours we raid are dragging by forever (and make everyone feel like they'd rather be at the dentist).... so we try to weed out the negative talk or confine it to text.

What works in kindergaten won't work in high school. What works in one guild won't work for another. Such is the way of things.

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I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

For every story on here about some asshole screaming over vent every time someone messes up and ruining the raid, I could tell you about someone who ruined a raid because they flat out refused to perform out of spite after being upset. The people who take offense to jerks and let them get to them, are as much responsible for the drama and wipes as the jerks themselves. Letting someone's attitude get to you will only serve to either fuel their anger toward you, or give them satisfaction that 'they pwned you'.

On the first, I'd agree with you. There's very little correlation between skill and attitude. But what I think the people earlier in the thread were saying is that a little bit of attitude is more acceptable when you have skills to back it up.

On the second, there's two seperate issues you're using, one is screaming leadership (which is generally accepted as A Bad Thing, I think), and the other is jerkoff co-raiders. I agree, though, with what you're saying now, you're never going to get into a guild where absolutely everyone likes each other (there's something like, uh, 1770 distinct relationships in a 60-man guild, I think), so you have to develop a certain tolerance for people you don't care to be around. Hell, in one of my old guilds I had two of our DPS warriors and one of our rogues on vent mute because I didn't want to hear them.

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I was being patronizing when I should have been direct with my message: This thread is filled with posts that seem to seperate 'elite/skilled' and 'attitude' and implied the requirement for a balance of the two. I don't believe that there is any coralation between skill and attitude, I'll kiss ass and cite EJ as an example. Their skill and knowledge of the game is without question, and enough of them are perfectly decent folks to disprove any argument of (1-skill)= Attitude.

I don't think anyone was trying to make that correlation. They were merely saying that while skill is important, even a Sun Tzu wouldn't be worth keeping around if he makes the rest of his guild feel like crap.

Going back to Proeliata's example; I don't believe that leaving the raid, going afk, or purposely wiping the raid again would serve any good purpose, even if it makes you feel better and that you've proved your point, most people aren't going to be seeing things through your eyes and may consider you to be the asshole.

Of course not! I never indicated that I'd do something like that. There's no point punishing 38 people for the wrongs done by one person. What I was saying is that a guild that has players that are constantly and consistently rude and insulting is not a guild that's going to last, no matter how much of a purplez machine it is. But the point is that the attitudes of the other raiders do make an impact. In the words of my good buddy John Donne (:P)

"No man is an island, entire of itself

every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main"

Maybe it's a faux pas to quote poetry in a raid discussion thread; I don't know. But saying that you shouldn't be affected by the attitudes of other people around you is a bit unreasonable. We're all only human. It's an MMORPG, which kind of reinforces the whole "You are not independent from other people" theme. Everyone has their pride, and nobody likes to be insulted. Yes, there will be some flipping out (I did just tonight at a priest who was rezzing non-rezzers before rezzers :P) but it shouldn't be, as a general rule, done by the rank and file of the guild; that's what the raid leaders/officers are there for.

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