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frmorrison

Holy Paladin Compendium for 3.3

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Mp5 (1 item point = 0.4mp5)

Unless i am mistaken, 1 item point of MP5 is actually 0.5mp5 and not 0.4

Nice Guide in general for the new paladins, good write up.

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Unless i am mistaken, 1 item point of MP5 is actually 0.5mp5 and not 0.4

Nice Guide in general for the new paladins, good write up.

Yep in 3.2 it got buffed by 25%, so it is 0.5 mp5 per item point. Thanks, the groundwork was done by Ermad, I updated the list with changes between 3.1 to 3.3 and did add a few new sections.

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Really positive and good for the community that a guide like this exists again. After reading through it I have some minor additions.

-There is a typo in the "haste rating" section. SHould be 676 not 6767.

-Maybe add that you now need IoL to generate the HoT on the target with SS.

-Under divine favor you could add that its possible to cast HL with divine favor and immediately follow up with a holy shock to guarantee a crit on both.

- Under "lay on hands" add that lay on hands is now also used as a tank cooldown due to the changed to Imp LoH.

- "Judgements of Wisdom/Light" could be updated to reflect that JoL can now be judged by all paladins specs with no apparent benefit. You could also add something about SoW and how it is amazing mana regen. Meleeing mobs/bosses or judging from range to regen mana as judging counts as a melee attack.

- Under "Librams" you could update the deadly libram to relentless libram.

- Under "enchants" there is a lot to add. Chest can be enchanted with 250 mana, bracers with 16 int, gloves with 10 crit, boots with 12hit/12crit. Enchants for shield and weapon seem to be missing and for weapon it would be both 63 sp or 30 int.

- Under "consumables" depending on server economy using the elixir combination is sometimes cheaper even when progressing. It is on my server at least.

A lot of additional info could be added, and I'll gladly post suggestions later.

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Great post for beginners and fun to read as a refresher. Just a couple suggestions / fixes I would make:

- Link to the Flask of Pure Mojo does not display what it does

- The trinkets section is lacking. Pandora's Plea, Meteorite Crystal, and Solace of the Defeated are just three I can think of off the top of my head that belong here. You also may want to rank them in some way (open to debate/preference, but for example 258 Solace is considered BIS.)

- You may wish to add a section on mana management, ie. judging to return mana, delaying casts to get melee procs, and knowing the proper times to plea. Mana management is a significant factor that distinguishes good paladins from bad ones.

- This is more a point of theorycraft than anything else, but at a certain level of gearing (particularly with new ICC gear), int levels have become obscenely high. Since the mana cost of HL is the same in T10 as it was in T7, I would argue that gearing for regen (ie. mp5 over crit) is not as black and white as this guide makes it out to be. Crit provides bonuses not affected by overheal, such as bigger HL splash numbers, FoL numbers, and all numbers during DP useage. I am well-geared so this may be an ivory tower observation, but I rarely find myself needing to plea anymore (at least not during stressful segments of the fights) and as such have been leaning more towards throughput than regen, even in ToCG25. This will most likely change once ICC hard modes are out, though.

Thanks for putting this together!

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- This is more a point of theorycraft than anything else, but at a certain level of gearing (particularly with new ICC gear), int levels have become obscenely high. Since the mana cost of HL is the same in T10 as it was in T7, I would argue that gearing for regen (ie. mp5 over crit) is not as black and white as this guide makes it out to be. Crit provides bonuses not affected by overheal, such as bigger HL splash numbers, FoL numbers, and all numbers during DP useage. I am well-geared so this may be an ivory tower observation, but I rarely find myself needing to plea anymore (at least not during stressful segments of the fights) and as such have been leaning more towards throughput than regen, even in ToCG25. This will most likely change once ICC hard modes are out, though.

There is still challenging content that isn't hard mode in ICC. Have you done the Full House achievement on Lady Deathwhisper? Perhaps we were under-manning it healing wise, but even with 42k raid buffed mana I was running low at the end of the fight and had popped DP anytime I could between add phases.

While the cost for HL has remained static, the need to use it has grown stronger with each iteration of raiding. With this in mind, I will likely continue stacking Int on my gear until the actual hard mode fights are released and we can see the benefits and costs of doing so.

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Fantastic guide, but I'm a little surprised [item]Libram of Veracity[/item] isn't listed, especially for HL spammers because of its SP proc. I would like to see it listed as an option, especially since the SP proc affects all spells, unlike the PVP libram, and the uptime is reasonable.

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Fantastic guide, but I'm a little surprised [item]Libram of Veracity[/item] isn't listed, especially for HL spammers because of its SP proc. I would like to see it listed as an option, especially since the SP proc affects all spells, unlike the PVP libram, and the uptime is reasonable.

If HL makes up the majority of your healing (it should), you'll benefit more from the extra HLs that Renewal allows you to cast unless you're already casting HL start to finish with no mana problems.

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I am in a smaller guild which slowly progresses through 10 man content, and healed the new Heroic 5 man content yesterday. This is the first time I've healed on my paladin in a long time, as I am the MT for my guild and don't get many opportunities, but lots and lots of gear that others can't use.

The damage from those runs was very different than I am used to, as the tank took less damage than expected, and the party took more. In this event, does it make more sense to BoL myself, and hope HL glyph takes care of most party-wide burst damage while using FoL - or - to BoL the tank and focus on party healing while occasionally topping off the tank?

Recount had my HPS at around 2,500+ for whole instance, and as high as 3,300+ on some boss encounters. Wondering if this is acceptable with my current gear, so that I know whether my healing could improve because of me, or just by upgrading my gear.

Additionally, at around 22,000 mana (buffed), I found myself taking mana breaks after every pull with more than 3 mobs. Is this normal with the new content, keeping in mind my gear is far from perfect?

Thanks for all the info.

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I am in a smaller guild which slowly progresses through 10 man content, and healed the new Heroic 5 man content yesterday. This is the first time I've healed on my paladin in a long time, as I am the MT for my guild and don't get many opportunities, but lots and lots of gear that others can't use.

The damage from those runs was very different than I am used to, as the tank took less damage than expected, and the party took more. In this event, does it make more sense to BoL myself, and hope HL glyph takes care of most party-wide burst damage while using FoL - or - to BoL the tank and focus on party healing while occasionally topping off the tank?

The second option - Beacon the tank and heal the party. Keep in mind that most of the mobs in the new 5 mans are undead, meaning you can use Turn Evil and Holy Wrath to mitigate their damage. With your gear, pauses for mana are going to be unavoidable - refer to the OP for some guidance on stats, as your gems and enchants are not ideal. The +128 int trinket from Triumph badges is probably the biggest bang for your buck right now.

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Yeah, I know the one trinket is just terrible, but when gearing an off-spec, its strange what you find to be acceptable sometimes, and I have checked the OP regarding chants and gems, but currently am experiencing the same problem, namely my guild needs me to gear my prot spec first, so my holy spec has to take a back seat.

One thought about this thread, maybe a separate section on useful macros? I know that I read two of them in the original post. I'm not terribly experienced with healing, but I would imagine something similar to the UH DK gargoyle macro for Holy Shock might make sense, and maybe some other users have additional ones.

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If HL makes up the majority of your healing (it should), you'll benefit more from the extra HLs that Renewal allows you to cast unless you're already casting HL start to finish with no mana problems.

I get that, and that makes sense, but I'm just saying it should be listed as an option. We are getting ridiculous mana pools these days and have many regen capabilites, especially if you happen to be a Blood Elf. A SP proc increases our throughput to give us bigger HLs.

I personally would find it more viable than [item]Libram of Blinding Light[/item], the stacking SP buff on the spell we hardly use (which is listed).

EDIT: It's been added as an option. Yay! Thank you!

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One thought about this thread, maybe a separate section on useful macros? I know that I read two of them in the original post. I'm not terribly experienced with healing, but I would imagine something similar to the UH DK gargoyle macro for Holy Shock might make sense, and maybe some other users have additional ones.

I only use two macros for healing (both in OP) since I have Clique to give me mouseover on Grid already. Some people prefer to have mouseover macros for their heals instead of Clique.

If you want a shock macro + favor (does not trigger a GCD) macro:

#showtooltip Holy Shock

/cast Divine Favor

/cast Holy Shock

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Thanks!

Would it be overkill to link it to trinkets as well (assuming they would have some effect)?

#showtooltip Holy Shock

/use 13

/use 14

/cast Divine Favor

/cast Holy Shock

Kind of want to try this, see how big the incoming heals are. Will reply with some numbers after testing.

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Q: Which of these two items are better for me?

A: Use Rawr, it will be able to answer it. If for some reason you think Rawr is wrong, post here in detail about why you think it is wrong.

This I do not agree with. Rawr is a great tool, but it isn't a perfectly accurate one. It overvalues crit and SP, for example, and undervalues haste. The reason it does is it isn't able to accurately model a realistic healing scenario, so it models what it can and those models are what cause those stats values to differ between the program and real life.

Basically, I agree that Rawr is a great too for looking at gear, but no matter how you set it up it isn't an accurate tool for breaking down the values of two different items. We aren't a DPS class -- our effectiveness cannot be boiled down into one big 4 digit number and ranked in that manner. We're just not simple enough to model, and therefore should automatically be dubious of anything that does attempt to model us.

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Thanks!

Would it be overkill to link it to trinkets as well (assuming they would have some effect)?

#showtooltip Holy Shock

/use 13

/use 14

/cast Divine Favor

/cast Holy Shock

Kind of want to try this, see how big the incoming heals are. Will reply with some numbers after testing.

You'd have to be careful and ensure that using one trinket doesn't put a CD on the other (some trinkets do, some don't). If they do, you're just gonna have to pick one trinket to use. It can also be macroed so that you use the trinket by name instead of by slot (in case you move or change them).

For instance:

/cast Avenging Wrath

/cast Divine Illumination

/use Talisman of Resurgence

works to provide huge, cheap heals. Possibly even overkill heals once you get geared enough. You could also consider macroing Divine Plea with Talisman or Avenging Wrath to try to negate the heal nerf (you'd want to be sure that you don't rely on plea more than every 3 minutes, however, to ensure its compensation is actually up when you use it).

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Healing strategies for ToGC. All of this is subject to your own guild's strategies, so I'll keep it pretty general. Feel free to suggest your own cool tricks that I don't know!

Beasts P1

  • Who to heal? Most of the damage is on the tanks. After a tank switch, the previous tank will still be taking damage from the stacking Impale - Beacon one tank and heal the other.
  • When to Plea? Gormok's damage goes up as more snobolds are thrown out, so try to Plea early on and then save the next one until the phase transition.
  • What to watch out for? Fire - move out of it. Snobolds can interrupt spells on anyone in their melee range, so don't stand next to anyone with a snobold.
  • Cool tricks:
    • If you get a snobold, AMing Concentration Aura will let you keep healing without fear of interrupts for a little while.
    • At the end of the phase, use HoP on a tank with Impale stacks to remove them, then use Freedom to clear the HoP.

Beasts P2

  • Who to heal? Ideally, Beacon the tank of the worm that you're not killing so that your HL glyph heals can hit the melee attacking the other one.
  • When to Plea? Plea during phase transitions and while the worms are submerged. The submerge doesn't last that long, so you may want to cancel Plea when the worms reemerge.
  • What to watch out for? Acid - don't stand in it. If you get the fire or acid debuffs at a bad time, it's probably better to bubble it off than to stop healing and move.
  • Cool tricks:
    • Use Divine Sacrifice or AM Fire Resist aura when the raid is taking lots of damage from Burning Bile.

Beasts P3

  • Who to heal? The tank.
  • When to Plea? When Icehowl jumps to the middle of the room, but before he stuns you, hit Plea and you'll get the full duration.
  • What to watch out for?: Ferocious Butt lining up with another melee attack can be very spiky damage. Turn on your boss mod's timer for the Butt cooldown.
  • Cool tricks:
    • Melee for Seal of Wisdom mana while Icehowl is stunned, but don't get knocked back by his whirl when he recovers.

Jaraxxus

  • Who to heal? Beacon the Jaraxxus tank, heal the raid and add tank(s). Keep Light's Grace up to respond quickly to raid damage or Incinerate Flesh.
  • When to Plea? Whenever adds are down and the raid is stable.
  • What to watch out for?:
  • Cool tricks:

Twins (clump and soakers strat)

  • Who to heal? Beacon one tank, heal either the other tank or the raid. Soakers are higher priority than the average raid member.
  • When to Plea? Incoming damage is lowest just before a new set of orbs spawn. This fight is also short enough that if you're conservative, you may be able to omit Plea completely.
  • What to watch out for? Touch of Light/Darkness on raid members. Extra damage on one tank while the other tank's mob is shielded.
  • Cool tricks:
    • Bubble through Vortex rather than moving for it.
    • You'll probably be in melee range of at least one twin; that means plenty of chances to melee for Seal of Wisdom mana.

Anub later.

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This I do not agree with. Rawr is a great tool, but it isn't a perfectly accurate one. It overvalues crit and SP, for example, and undervalues haste. The reason it does is it isn't able to accurately model a realistic healing scenario, so it models what it can and those models are what cause those stats values to differ between the program and real life.

Basically, I agree that Rawr is a great too for looking at gear, but no matter how you set it up it isn't an accurate tool for breaking down the values of two different items. We aren't a DPS class -- our effectiveness cannot be boiled down into one big 4 digit number and ranked in that manner. We're just not simple enough to model, and therefore should automatically be dubious of anything that does attempt to model us.

I have been healing for years, so I know the difference between healing and dps; this is one reason why there cannot be a BiS list for healing gear, except for maybe trinkets.

While Rawr isn't 100% accurate, it sounds like your settings need to be tweaked to better reflect your conditions. I prefer my extra stats to be mp5 and haste and my settings reflect that preference most of the time. However unlike for dps, you just don't pick the highest ranked item you have access to, especially when dancing around the haste soft cap (which I personally consider very useful), where I would forgo a 251 level crit/mp5 item for a lower 245 level haste/mp5 item.

A Rawr settings section may be useful, since the default settings are not what I consider reflective of a HL spamming, Int stacking 25 man tank healer.

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- This is more a point of theorycraft than anything else, but at a certain level of gearing (particularly with new ICC gear), int levels have become obscenely high. Since the mana cost of HL is the same in T10 as it was in T7, I would argue that gearing for regen (ie. mp5 over crit) is not as black and white as this guide makes it out to be. Crit provides bonuses not affected by overheal, such as bigger HL splash numbers, FoL numbers, and all numbers during DP useage. I am well-geared so this may be an ivory tower observation, but I rarely find myself needing to plea anymore (at least not during stressful segments of the fights) and as such have been leaning more towards throughput than regen, even in ToCG25. This will most likely change once ICC hard modes are out, though.

From my experience on Hardmode ICC on the PTR, you will benefit from regen as much as you did before. I couldn't run oom on the PTR because I'm playing from Europe, but I was chaincasting HL and I know that makes me go oom with decent latency.

We also have a lot more haste than we did in Naxx, meaning greater mana usage when spamming.

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I have been healing for years, so I know the difference between healing and dps; this is one reason why there cannot be a BiS list for healing gear, except for maybe trinkets.

While Rawr isn't 100% accurate, it sounds like your settings need to be tweaked to better reflect your conditions. I prefer my extra stats to be mp5 and haste and my settings reflect that preference most of the time. However unlike for dps, you just don't pick the highest ranked item you have access to, especially when dancing around the haste soft cap (which I personally consider very useful), where I would forgo a 251 level crit/mp5 item for a lower 245 level haste/mp5 item.

A Rawr settings section may be useful, since the default settings are not what I consider reflective of a HL spamming, Int stacking 25 man tank healer.

The problem with Rawr isn't that it isn't 100% accurate so much as it is that, in spots, it's completely and utterly inaccurate. For example, I'm playing around with Rawr right now looking at meta gems. No matter what settings I put it on, short fight long fight 0% burst 100% burst 5 GHL targets 0 GHL targets 100% Beacon effectiveness 0% Beacon effectiveness, it puts [item]Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond[/item] massively over [item]Insightful Earthsiege Diamond[/item] -- listing it roughly FOUR TIMES better on almost all settings. In fact, I can't even get Insightful Earthsiege higher than 3rd on this list. This is with gear and with raid buffs and with everything all set up by someone who has similarly used Rawr for almost a year now, but all that cannot make up for the fact that Rawr simply does not model healing in any meaningful way and as such it's valuations cannot be used to judge one piece of gear from another.

I think everyone in this thread will agree that Insightful is our best meta, but this program states that Revitalizing is 3-4 times better than Insightful in all scenarios. With that in mind, how can I trust any of this program's evaluations after knowing it so massively overvalues crit?

I think Rawr is a great program for planning out your gear. I really do. But I think the act of deciding which piece is better than another has to be done by a human, not by the program, because the program cannot be trusted to accurately model a realistic healing scenario resulting in a disconnect between what it thinks is better and what actually is.

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Healing strategies for ToGC. All of this is subject to your own guild's strategies, so I'll keep it pretty general. Feel free to suggest your own cool tricks that I don't know!

Beasts P1: Cast even if you have a snobold, they don't catch all the casts.

Beasts P2: If you are tanking the worms where they spawn, use your ability to bubble off the poison and let the people without immunities take the better spots.

Beasts P3: HoP a lock/moonkin/ele shaman for a tiny increase in DPS and a pat on the back.

Jaraxxus: I'd rather beacon the offtank, since there is a greater chance of him moving our of range. Watch out for Incinerate Flesh absorbing your heal and nullifying the beacon heal. AM Conc aura does not work on the interrupt, but you can avoid the interrupt by fake casting (start casting and interrupt it after 300 ms).

Twins: Remember to have Fire Resistance aura up.

Anub'arak:

Heal the MT or one of the OTs, with beacon on MT or one of the OTs. Remember to switch Glyph of Holy Light to Glyph of Divinity!

Keep Sacred Shield on the one you don't have beacon on, so you can easily put the FoL hot up if you have time. Before PH3 you can plea whenever, but in PH3 you should do it when the adds have just died, during Bloodlust/Heroism or in conjunction with a tank cooldown.

Watch out for aggro from the spawning adds. To not get killed, try to stand between or behind the ice patches, so the add will get slowed down. You can also stun them with Holy Wrath if it looks like the tank won't be able to pick them up.

Cool tricks: Use HoP to give people more time to get to the ice patch in burrow phase, use bubble in PH3 only when you get Penetrating Cold and after you use bubble, use Divine Sacrifice because this is the only time you can. Refresh buffs between add waves if possible. If you die, announce the tank you were healing on ventrilo.

On Rawr: It's mainly useful comparing the regen effects on gear, not deciding if one piece is better than the other. For example, I believe that haste/mp5 is the optimal combination, but rawr lists a haste/mp5 item first only when using a burst scale between 37 and 44 percent (when compared to crit/mp5 and haste/mp5 items with exact same base stats). This is because it doesn't model overhealing.

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Jaraxxus: I'd rather beacon the offtank, since there is a greater chance of him moving our of range. Watch out for Incinerate Flesh absorbing your heal and nullifying the beacon heal.

Guess I have to check it the next time we are in Trial but I am almost 100% certain Beacon works just fine when healing Incinerate Flesh targets.

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On Rawr: It's mainly useful comparing the regen effects on gear, not deciding if one piece is better than the other. For example, I believe that haste/mp5 is the optimal combination, but rawr lists a haste/mp5 item first only when using a burst scale between 37 and 44 percent (when compared to crit/mp5 and haste/mp5 items with exact same base stats). This is because it doesn't model overhealing.
Even then I wouldn't consider it of use because the Fight Healing stat does not model straight regen so much as how much healing you do with your mana -- meaning the bonus heal on a crit is figured in as just as effective as getting half a free heal. Like you said, it doesn't consider overheal, and therefore values crit absurdly high in all scenarios, whether it's burst or fight.

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This is with gear and with raid buffs and with everything all set up by someone who has similarly used Rawr for almost a year now, but all that cannot make up for the fact that Rawr simply does not model healing in any meaningful way and as such it's valuations cannot be used to judge one piece of gear from another.

This is incorrect. Ermad has explained how Rawr models healing, and it's as fair a job as any theorycrafting tool can do. The reason you are seeing strange results for the meta is not because of how the Rawr.Healadin is modeling healing, but rather because the base module does not correctly implement the proc of the IED. This also frequently happens with trinkets. You can either edit the items to show static approximations of the procs, or you can simply ignore the ranking of proc items and use what you know to be best.

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This is incorrect. Ermad has explained how Rawr models healing, and it's as fair a job as any theorycrafting tool can do. The reason you are seeing strange results for the meta is not because of how the Rawr.Healadin is modeling healing, but rather because the base module does not correctly implement the proc of the IED. This also frequently happens with trinkets. You can either edit the items to show static approximations of the procs, or you can simply ignore the ranking of proc items and use what you know to be best.
Oh I agree it's as good a job as any theorycrafting tool can do. I'm not trying to say that other tools out there do better. What I'm trying to say is that despite it being as close to accurate as it feasibly can be it still doesn't output information that is relevant and meaningful with regards to item evaluation. The simple fact that it does not model overheal causes it to think that crit is a good throughput stat and that Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond is an amazing meta.

We, the holy paladins, know this is not true. Because of overhealing crit is in truth a very poor stat for increasing our total healing -- it still does something, but in truth is closer to a 20% increase than a 50% increase -- and the effect on Revitalizing Skyflare is literally worth next to nothing.

We can't trust it's fight healing evaluation because it doesn't consider overheal, making crit an amazing stat in it's eyes.

We can't trust it's burst healing evaluation because simply considers raw HPS and doesn't give any extra weight for having a faster cast time more likely to get in before the boss hits and kills the tank -- thus, haste is not valued nearly as high as it should be.

We can't trust it's mana regen evaluation because it doesn't have one -- it has a fight healing evaluation which is not accurate as per above.

There really isn't any weighting system Rawr-Healadin puts out that is true to life.

It's a great program for being able to plan out gear upgrades and see what those upgrades do to your cast times, mana pools, regen, etc, but it should absolutely not be trusted to act as a deciding factor in which pieces are better than others. It's weightings are not true to life and there aren't any options within the program to fix them so they are. You just have to eyeball it and decide for yourself.

Edit: Capstone, I just checked the Insightful Earthsiege Diamond and Rawr is modelling it perfectly if the OP's equivalency of 70 mp5 from the proc is correct. Removing the proc and adding 70 mp5 doesn't change it's relative positioning at all.

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