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Kirbie44

Tree Healing Guide (IN PROGRESS)

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but I am not aware of an analysis of combat parses that shows Revitalize to be a major raid dps contribution. Could you please point me in the right direction there?

I can give you a link to a WOL parse showing the gains from Revitalize over a full fight.

I think an almost ideal case (for demonstrating the potential of Revitalize's) is Twins in ToGC25, in which we had 2 resto druids simply spamming rejuv/WG none stop without moving (97% of the healing done by both druids was done by rejuv + WG).

here you can see that Replenish provided the raid with a total of 176k mana during the fight (3:59 min).

In that same fight Revitalize (by 2x trees) gave the raid 119k mana, 576 runic power,632 energy, and 84 rage combined.

How much extra damage was caused by that extra runic, energy and rage i can't say, maybe someone else wants to give a lower bound or estimation. However what is very clear is Revitalize was at least 67% as good as replenish, if you only count the mana gained. This would make each single druid's 3/3 Revitalize equal to at least 33.8% the mana regen of replenish (and remember a single player doesn't provide the entire 25man raid with replenish, you need a couple of replenish providers), assuming a rejuv/WG spamming healing style.

Another interesting thing in this log is that Revitalize gave roughly 100k mana to healers, arcane mages, and a warlock. The remaining 19k mana went to other mana users (rets, prot palas, hunters, enhac shamans etc). Now arcane mages and warlocks gaining more mana means more dps, since locks need to tap less and mages can afford to skip evocation or use higher dps rotations. Its obviously good for your healers to have more mana. So claims of the extra mana being useless are far from true, at least in my opinion.

Seeing these logs, I consider Revitalize a must have talent for a raiding resto druid.

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Can you tell me why did you choose crit head and shoulders enchat instead of mana regen?

e: Oh nevermind, I did not see a small note above. Delete post, please.

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Thanks jula. I payed a little more attention to my own raid logs (actually I wasn't aware that WoL lists Revitalize like that, thanks!) and it seems yours is more favorable towards Revitalize than mine. We also run with 2 resto Druids and being one of them I usually gain 20% (e.g. our last Jaraxxus HC kill) to 30% (our last Iron Council HC kill, 5x1 style fight) of Replenishment mana from Revitalize. That puts each Druids Revitalize at about 15% of Replenishment as opposed to your 30%.

The difference can be explained by the fact that you only had 2 sources of Replenishment in the raid so I guess you hardly had 100% uptime on everyone. We had 5, giving it basically a 100% uptime.

Still, 15% worth of Replenishment (for mana users alone - plus the effect on RP, rage and energy) is pretty awesome. I, too, consider it a mandatory talent now ;)

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Still, 15% worth of Replenishment (for mana users alone - plus the effect on RP, rage and energy) is pretty awesome. I, too, consider it a mandatory talent now ;)

If only the rest of the community were as "open" as you :)

For standard talents, I think I am going to keep what I have, maybe open up the area for more discussion/opinions. I'll make a link to Jula's post with the combat parse in the talent section.

735/736 Haste with CF, I recall 736, but I'll have to search and redo the math to see if it is 735.

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If only the rest of the community were as "open" as you :)

For standard talents, I think I am going to keep what I have, maybe open up the area for more discussion/opinions. I'll make a link to Jula's post with the combat parse in the talent section.

735/736 Haste with CF, I recall 735, but I'll have to search and redo the math to see if it is 736.

It's 734.99. TreeCalcs will spit out your exact cap in any combination of buffs as well.

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I don't know how much itemization I want to use in this thread, but I feel proc's off [iTEM]Trauma[/iTEM] [iTEM]50359[/iTEM] and [iTEM]46017[/iTEM] have their right to be put into this. My guild does not have the trinket yet, nor a druid with the Legendary, and Trauma was just made available today. I was looking for possibly a few different logs with these items, as well as the confirmation of whether the Abacus is a smart heal or not. I am positive it is, but I have not seen it live myself.

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The other Druid in my guild won the single Althor's Abacus that dropped for us so far. The proc usually makes up about 1.5% to 3% of his overall healing done which I find quite impressive. It certainly is our new BiS trinket I'd say.

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The other Druid in my guild won the single Althor's Abacus that dropped for us so far. The proc usually makes up about 1.5% to 3% of his overall healing done which I find quite impressive. It certainly is our new BiS trinket I'd say.

One thing to keep in mind is they don't stack (heroic and non) like the Solace's did. The heroic version is 201 SP and clearly better than IDS. Can the proc crit that you know of?

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One thing to keep in mind is they don't stack (heroic and non) like the Solace's did. The heroic version is 201 SP and clearly better than IDS. Can the proc crit that you know of?

I just checked the logs, yes it can crit.

In our Iron Council HC kill it just did 1.5% of his healing done. Since it's a 5x1 fight there was plenty of healing an the trinket couldn't really shine.

On our last Jaraxxus HC kill on the other hand it did 4.3% of his healing output. The smart heal really shines there I guess.

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The proc "Echoes of Light" from the Abacus can indeed crit and seems to roughly make up around 2-3% of my healing (tending to the upper end) but I'm still uncertain if it is a smart heal or not as it tends to stick around the 40% overheal mark.

Regarding your opening post:

"Yellow: [Reckless Ametrine] - to haste cap [Luminous Ametrine] - after haste cap" is debatable as having the Reckless gems in might allow you to use one of the crit items with higher SP (boots and bracers right now for example) if by some chance you manage to go over the cap anytime soon and the trade off of getting more Int or more SP should be very easy to decide on. This also assumes the socket bonus is worth doing so over just putting a Runed gem in the first place but I haven't personally gone over my final gear list with a comb yet to decide on those minor details at the moment.

The talent point section is probably better off using a base spec such as this (11/0/51) where granted there are 2 'floater' points which must be attributed to progress to the 5th and 10th tier where people could deviate on slightly. Then having the current available options from then on such as going into CF, Living Seed, Revitalize, Nature's Grace for the last 9 points with the details about each listed for players to have informed choices.

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I just checked the logs, yes it can crit.

In our Iron Council HC kill it just did 1.5% of his healing done. Since it's a 5x1 fight there was plenty of healing an the trinket couldn't really shine.

On our last Jaraxxus HC kill on the other hand it did 4.3% of his healing output. The smart heal really shines there I guess.

It will tend to see its glory on fights where debuff/non-aoe damage is done. Jaraxxus is a good example of this. I mean by this it's % heal will go up, as it will rarely be overheal (similar to Divine Storm) and the overall healing done during the fight will go down. 2M healing done on a 4M Jaraxxus fight compared to 10M Healing done on a 4M Heroic Twins fight. The trinket procs for total of 25k, it has more % healing on Jaraxxus than Twins.

And not that it is much, but it makes the heal utilize crit rating as well.

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"Yellow: [Reckless Ametrine] - to haste cap [Luminous Ametrine] - after haste cap" is debatable as having the Reckless gems in might allow you to use one of the crit items with higher SP (boots and bracers right now for example) if by some chance you manage to go over the cap anytime soon and the trade off of getting more Int or more SP should be very easy to decide on. This also assumes the socket bonus is worth doing so over just putting a Runed gem in the first place but I haven't personally gone over my final gear list with a comb yet to decide on those minor details at the moment.

The talent point section is probably better off using a base spec such as this (11/0/51) where granted there are 2 'floater' points which must be attributed to progress to the 5th and 10th tier where people could deviate on slightly. Then having the current available options from then on such as going into CF, Living Seed, Revitalize, Nature's Grace for the last 9 points with the details about each listed for players to have informed choices.

I think I will elaborate more on the gems section. I personally fill socket bonus's because I am a little OCD about that. However, I do agree that possible throwing a few extra haste gems in for luminous in order to get higher ilvl gear that has crit may be an HPS upgrade, esp. with the 4T9 right now.

However, BiS includes Trauma, and since it is a non-heroic drop, it will be fairly easy to obtain (considering it drops and you win it), which has no haste. And the other 264 weapons have no haste on them IIRC. The 10m staff is a great alternative until we get Trauma, and easier to obtain. As well as we wouldn't have to use our awesome Hit/Haste offhand. I would assume Illidan drops a weapon of sort, so I won't go too far into this mess.

Edit: Really... I just refered to Illidan... *Lich King*.

I do understand a few topics need expanding, especially gemming in regards to pure SP and hybrids, and elaborate more on 25+2%. I however, haven't looked much into this other than 1 time glance, because I have always been 21+600 user.

I was debating on using the 11/0/51, and then elaborating on possible useful talents to put in from there, which seems like the logical choice for the OP.

Crit vs. Stat weights: I do think crit has it's value in the end. NS+HT, LS (if you pick that up), and a regular Swiftmend. It is not that useful for Nourish and Regrowth as they have amazing crit already. I will not render it useless, and it may become more useful if [item]Trauma[/item] can crit like Abacus does. I am not saying this is our "ArP" stat, but don't throw it out the window. Proper stat weighting with Hybrid gems vs MP5/Crit head/shoulder enchant math can be done without 4PC T9. However, I feel that in 98% of the cases, MP5 is the better enchant outside of 4T9. I put the crit in the BiS enchants for now as 4T9 is mostly available, and I do not want it to be overlooked.

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Honestly, I don't understand the need for using crit enchants for Shoulders/Helmet. As you just mentioned, for nourish/regrowth, they have amazing crit already. Unless one is using 4 pieces of T9, I would recommend using the mana regen enchants despite how weak they may look, but they are much useful than crit on the long run.

And [item]Tireless Skyflare Diamond[/item] is also a good alternative to enchanting Tuskarr's Vitality and replacing that with 18 Spirit. As swapping between this gem and [item]Insightful Earthsiege Diamond[/item] requires no changing of any other gems, however, you'd lose a chunk of regeneration.

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Honestly, I don't understand the need for using crit enchants for Shoulders/Helmet.

Crit > mp5 enchants for me personally, I can't remember the last time I went oom. Living seed is very underrated.

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I don't see the need for anyone to spec for CF. 856 haste rating sure sounds like a lot coming from mid 300s pre 3.3, but a smart druid would have seen this coming and started scraping up any haste gear they could get. I did just that and even with fair to good gear (Armory) I'm at 851 haste with only a few reckless gems. In fact my spec didn't change at all with the release of 3.3.

11/60 is the best overall spec, by far.

Looking through the loot lists for 264/277 gear I can't imagine not being able to hit 856 haste, even by accident, unless you are trying to work in the 4 piece bonus, which is certainly (at this point) not worthwhile. CF isn't needed now (245/251/258/264), or in the future (277) . Stop recommending these builds.

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unless you are trying to work in the 4 piece bonus, which is certainly (at this point) not worthwhile.

You seem to have missed the recent blue post stating that 4t10 will not consume the initial Rejuv. Depending on who it will jump to (if it can overwrite an existing Rejuv on the target) it might be a medicore bonus but it will certainly be worth getting even then. In case it won't jump to anyone who has Rejuv on him already it will be an awesome set bonus, about as strong as 4t9.

I at least am building my gear set around 4t10 and then getting to 856 haste - with Trauma of course, a weapon that has 0 haste on it - is really not that easy anymore.

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No, I did see the post regarding 4T10, and have assumed the now-proven correct behavior all this time. I believe it is a decent bonus, and not something you build through, but add on at the end. You should build your set for haste cap then if you have room tack on your 2 extra pieces of T10 to get your bonus.

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Most smart druids are juggling around the cap because they've kept 4T9, so they use 2 crit pieces which makes it harder to reach the cap. And most will transition to 4T10 which has the same problem - granted somewhat lessened due to higher ilvl gear and some missing itemization holes filled.

Can't say I really see the appeal of 11/0/60 over 14/0/57. It gains you 3% crit and 5% spirit, both of which are pretty meager benefits. If you have only 1 resto spec, then it will be 14/0/57 or 18/0/53 depending on gear. To preempt : NG enables regrowth spam. 3% crit don't enable anything.

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I'd suggest adding 5x1 to your terminology, its a very popular term around here and also one of our most basic healing rotations, which suggests perhaps a larger devotion than just a sentence in the terminology section but it'd be a good start.

Also, there's no mention in the gem section of using [iTEM]40128[/iTEM] to reach hate cap. Pre-cap the value of 1 haste isn't much different from 1 spellpower so its a viable strategy while trying to fill in the non-badge pieces with sometimes hard to win random drops.

The comment about the badge idol seems very misplaced for an EJ guide. If it's an opinion, which is readily debatable, it probably can be left out of an authoritative guide.

All in all its a a good primer but I'm not sure it captures the depth of some of the debates on the forums such as the LS vs. Revitalize debate or really explaining that you shouldn't break 4t9 until 4t10. This will only lead to a rehashing of past discussions. If this is intended as a interim guide until Arawethion gets one up, I'd suggest including links to the posts you copied material from so that if you don't intend to include the supporting math it can be easily found.

Otherwise its a nice compilation, and its nice to see one of these guides up for resto druids, especially given the shake up of 3.3.

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Even when you assume 1 haste = 1 SP it is still 20 points vs 22 points when using a hybrid gem so unless you are actually valuing haste above SP it still is illogical to do a 20 haste gem.

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Most smart druids are juggling around the cap because they've kept 4T9, so they use 2 crit pieces which makes it harder to reach the cap. And most will transition to 4T10 which has the same problem - granted somewhat lessened due to higher ilvl gear and some missing itemization holes filled.

Can't say I really see the appeal of 11/0/60 over 14/0/57. It gains you 3% crit and 5% spirit, both of which are pretty meager benefits. If you have only 1 resto spec, then it will be 14/0/57 or 18/0/53 depending on gear. To preempt : NG enables regrowth spam. 3% crit don't enable anything.

Why are people so hung up about 4T9? Many times people have posted 5% gains on our best fight, Twins. If our best fight is only 5% gain, it's not worthy of dominating your loot decisions for the next month or so, and certainly not worthy of keeping you from haste capping, forcing you into a 18/53 build that compromises your healing ability.

Who spams regrowth, ever? I don't and can't see when that would be beneficial to have. At haste cap, my regrowth is already 1.4 seconds, anyways. The difference in spec merely provides the best passive, consistent buffs rather than hoping you proc NG.

I've had only 1 resto spec for the last 4 months and it's been 11/60 and I've never wanted to change or wish my build included something else. I have all the tools already.

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I'd suggest adding 5x1 to your terminology, its a very popular term around here and also one of our most basic healing rotations, which suggests perhaps a larger devotion than just a sentence in the terminology section but it'd be a good start.

Also, there's no mention in the gem section of using [iTEM]40128[/iTEM] to reach hate cap. Pre-cap the value of 1 haste isn't much different from 1 spellpower so its a viable strategy while trying to fill in the non-badge pieces with sometimes hard to win random drops.

The comment about the badge idol seems very misplaced for an EJ guide. If it's an opinion, which is readily debatable, it probably can be left out of an authoritative guide.

At the beginning of the post, I talked about 5x1. I may add it to the terminology, but it has its own section. Also, I didn't mention 20 haste in the gems because I didn't really see it viable, and here is an easy way why. Runed + Quick = 23SP and 20 Haste. 2x Reckless = 24 SP and 20 Haste. Hybrid gems get you more SP overall. You are already gimping spellpower to socket haste. If you can't get to 700+ in your gear with a few reckless, you need to look for some haste drops, and work on them. Yes, it is an alternative, but I only recommend using reckless to pick up socket bonuses. I could go ahead and list any possible caster gem, and ways to gem in different situations, but this is about 25 man raiding as a spread tree. Haste itemization> Haste gemming. If you don't have haste on your gear, you have crit. Crit is very useless without your 4T9.

Gemming is your choice however, I know a lot of druids who don't even have a yellow or orange gem in their gear. You mention if it is an opinion, it can probably be left out. I can easily say 70% of this guide is an opinion. Stats, Spellpower coef., and Profession bonuses would be left. I understand there is 1 way to obtain the highest DPS possible for each DPS class. There is also a way to obtain the highest HPS possible. This is a good reason why nobody has made a healing post yet, because there is no absolute value on talents, stats / gems, gear, weapons, etc. To each roll / playstyle / gear level is their own. The guide itself is to be about the majority of 25 man druid healers; raid blanketing. These are reasons I suggest and push 3/3 CF, and drop LS and pick up revitalize. LS doesn't effect WG/Rejuve. Revitalize does. It makes the spell that much stronger.

This isn't directed towards you too much to say, but this is still being built and thought about. Opinions are all we have. There is math on certain mechanics of our arsenal, but what spells we like to buff with talents is based on personal preference. To come on here and post "That spec is bad, it doesn't have living seed!" is not really welcomed. Explain why not having LS is bad. Obviously, I do think dropping LS is worth it for something, and so do many others. I have thought to myself, how much action does living seed get? In my logs, it made up for less than 3% of my healing, on average. Then I dove deeper, finding out when my LS proc'd, who it healed, and if that healing was valuable. Over the course of 4 weeks worth of Ulduar raiding and progression, including the 4 keepers hard mode, I found that living seed, when it healed, typically healed it's target that was already above 65% health. ~77% of living seed heals were done on a target with Rejuvenation or Renew or PW:S on the target. Over 1/2 the time, that target was hit by a direct heal, be it Chain Heal, LHW, FH, FoL, etc, withing 1.5 seconds, causing that to over heal.

It was effective healing, and it has low over heal. The value of this healing however goes down, as I wasn't (and still am not) a tank healer. Damage was low then, and you only had to spam 1 target in ulduar and that was the Napalm Shells P1 of Mimiron. This is why I don't use Living Seed. 4T9, I decided to run with 3/3 NP over 3/3 LS. AGAIN, this is all about 25 man raid blanket healing style. My current spec as of this date is 3/3 LS, for my 10m content. Even with the CF build, the biggest loss is the 20% ET to Nourish. Even though I don't use it much, having Nourish hit that much harder is a big deal. I am really close into dropping living spirit to pick up 2/2 ET.

Again, healing strategies are personal preference in what works best for you and your guild/raid. It is your opinion on what talents/spells/itemization will work best for you. How the majority of knowledgeable resto druids treat their characters is what I am trying to convey in the guide. After healing with 4 different classes for 5 years, there is very little consistency in healing. Rotations and cooldowns and mana managment, healing assignments, talent points, spells to use, basically everything healing, changes per player, per fight, per class, per situation. Everyone knows this, and you can't quantify the best talents, or the best gem choices for every druid out there. 3/4 of this guide is my opinion based on my personal experience as a WotLK Tree. On controversial subjects, I will elaborate more on different choices. Like the Idol, or Living Seed. Thank you for all your comments about different aspects of the guide. More viewpoints is what it does need. But with those view points, please help me with sources/logs/something I can look at to help me see your argument/view. I am an open minded person, and very lenient. "Help me help you" - Tom Cruise :)

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Why are people so hung up about 4T9? Many times people have posted 5% gains on our best fight, Twins. If our best fight is only 5% gain, it's not worthy of dominating your loot decisions for the next month or so, and certainly not worthy of keeping you from haste capping, forcing you into a 18/53 build that compromises your healing ability.

Who spams regrowth, ever? I don't and can't see when that would be beneficial to have. At haste cap, my regrowth is already 1.4 seconds, anyways. The difference in spec merely provides the best passive, consistent buffs rather than hoping you proc NG.

I've had only 1 resto spec for the last 4 months and it's been 11/60 and I've never wanted to change or wish my build included something else. I have all the tools already.

4T9 is equivalent to hundreds of SP in 5x1 situations. Comparing theoretical gains (from SP) to actual gains (4T9 on parses) isn't the best course of action. A 5% bonus is quite substantial, in any case.

It's funny you say that 11/60 provides consistent buffs when what you actually gain is 3% crit - hardly a consistent buff - and 5% spirit. Granted ~10SP is a consistent buff, but it's also a laughable one.

Whenever you chain nourish on someone that isn't a target, you should regrowth instead.

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Let's not turn this into the next disassociated thread where we talk about random Resto topics with no organization or particular purpose. This is all why I was hesitant to post a "guide" myself. Most of the actual hard facts and straightforward conclusions can be summarized very briefly--in a rather short post--and the rest is still all open discussion. Even if I described all of my own conclusion on the right way to go about everything (gems/talents/spell choice), most people would just see it as a reflection of my own particular "healing style." And whatever you try to include, the last thing you want is to fall into some kind of all-encompassing discussion of healing in general--but it's hard to reach any firm conclusions on what exactly the Tree should be doing without getting into that.

Maybe I'll see what the other healing classes have to get a better sense of what works. But so far, this thread is bearing out exactly my thoughts on why it wasn't really a good idea in the first place.

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