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Blackpatch

Theories about slow RP server raid progression

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In the case of Cenarion Circle, Horde-side, a lot of people had no desire at all to learn how to play, as lame as that sounds. Before you joined DFP Blackpatch, it was painful to tell someone that they could do more damage if the specced differently. Not a demand, just a suggestion would cause people to flip out. The big thing to me was that people wouldn't spec or gear in a way to benefit themselves and wouldn't even except constructive criticism.

Of course, Cenarion Circle is the compost heap of WoW servers.

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This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

Hoowah Shaduclan!

That guild was always a little weird, what with guild rank indicating whether or not you could wear shoulders/helm graphic/ride a mount. The only thing good I ever saw come out of Shadowclan was the opportunity to jump in during the Warboss "elections" and kill everyone.

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My guild, Silence, used to be on the RP server SilverHand until a few weeks ago, and we have 12 bosses in Naxx down (working on 4H now).

We're in Battlegroup 9, and we've never seen any Horde team that has given our guild groups even close to a challenge. Beyond that, the Alliance premade teams (not guilds casually grouping but real pvp teams) back on SH have also seen 95% wins in BGs.

My experiences are not proof of anything, but they are counter examples to the BS people believe about RP servers. Granted, there are people who *gasp* RP, but it's not like players are inherently worse at WoW or cannot push progression if they so choose.

On thing I will say now that I've played on an RP and a PvE server is that I wish names were policed on my PvE server because some of this stuff is insanely stupid.

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Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.

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At what point does this get intractable? I was able to captain a raid through MC, but it took all of my available macros just for MC, ZG and Onyxia - I was at a loss on how to effectively communicate via text (In-character or not) for BWL content.

We had an applicant transfering servers who had never raided with voice coms- they were at C'thun and having much difficulty with it when he left.

Personally I can't imagine trying to raid without voice coms and ooc text, but that's probably because that's all I've ever known. I find utterly silent vent kinda creepy unless we're in the middle of something super intense and we're all in the groove. Call outs to start buffs, finish buffs, move forward, stance dance, spread out, gather up, go north, spawn south... all of that is strangely soothing. If you've ever seen A Chorus Line on stage, the scene with all the people dancing in perfect coordination while different voices are highlighted in something of a monotone rythmn telling themselves to turn left, turn right, step back, step forward.... that's what vent/text spam is like for me in raids. It's like the ticking of a clock marking time.

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What I did notice while near and later at the forefront of Horde CC raiding is that every encounter, every class, and every guild was constantly being carried by a few really on-the-ball individuals. The one incredible tank, the one great healer, the rogue with jaw-dropping DPS, so on, so forth. Progress would be driven forwards by these few individuals. Most of the rest of the guild would be of fine quality, and then there would be 3-5 screwups who would constantly blunder around, wrecking encounters and being confused.

Holy crap, you nailed it dead on right here. Bullseye. Hole in one.

The 3-5 people that wreck encounters combined with a shallow recruiting pool due to the stigma of RP server do a LOT to hinder progress. We're on C'Thun ourselves, and we constantly find that it's a few non-attentive people that end up killing a quarter of the raid...but we don't have replacements, despite having an utterly massive membership base.

On one hand, I love the atmosphere of our raid group. It's laid back and relatively easygoing, considering that we're relatively advanced.

On the other hand, when we're trying to overcome a roadblock and a meager two or three people are holding us back because they can't do their jobs, and we can't find anyone better to replace them with, I long for a decidedly less laid-back atmosphere.

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Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.

As an Alliance guild on Silver Hand the pool of players available was much greater than that available horde side. I strongly suspect this is a large reason for the difference in progression between Horde side on Silver Hand and Alliance side.

Silence always out progressed everyone horde side, and were the most progressed guild on the server before they left. I think you can point to them as proof that good raiders can come from a RP server, but they are definitely the exception on Silver Hand imho.

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To echo other above posts, many who play want to stay in their small 'friends-and-family' guilds. This leads to the necessity of guild alliances, which can be trouble. The Rugged Individualism that many exhibit also lead folks to think 'Oh, we can do this our own way', effectively constricting an already small raiding pool on RP servers. (Go Horde!)

That too. You tend to see more of the "Dammit I rolled a shadow priest! I'm not a healer!" attitude on RP servers (and this is somewhat understandable; people who put a lot of time into thinking about their character get more attached to their notion of what the character is "all about") so that makes it that much harder to find reliable raiders.

I think Horde guilds on RP servers get hit disproportionately hard by these problems due to the small population (though at the moent Zeza's guild is the only one currently on our server that's killed C'thun.)

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While I agree with you that raid guilds on RP realms have issues due to a small pool of potential players, there are many PvE guilds on RP realms, who do not focus on RP at all. Their focus is purely PvE and yet they flounder. Why? I realize you are attempting to answer this with your theory, but even still on a realm like Cenarion Circle there are enough good players to field a 40 man raid which would do well. Even though there's a turnover in skilled people leaving, why can't everyone get together in one raid group?

Cliques I suppose, and skilled players not getting along. This leads to multiple guilds filled with not enough good players, meaning you have to fill the void with bad ones. I'd wager a large number of people leaving the game/their guild left in part due to becoming tired of carrying bad players. As mentioned, there's something wrong with critiquing someone's spec, and if, say, a fire mage doesn't have Burning Soul that's OK.

Some of you posting here may know me as Vanick from Cenarion Circle. I left, in part, due to this problem, and Blackpatch and I have a long history together and this has been an ongoing topic not only amongst us but amongst mostly everyone who raids on an RP realm and is truly interested in succeeding.

edit:

That too. You tend to see more of the "Dammit I rolled a shadow priest! I'm not a healer!" attitude on RP servers (and this is somewhat understandable; people who put a lot of time into thinking about their character get more attached to their notion of what the character is "all about") so that makes it that much harder to find reliable raiders.

This is also a major factor in why it is hard to find good people and a surprising number of people like this end up in raid guilds. They started out on an RP realm and found out about raiding in WoW and now they want to raid. Sadly for them, they are playing the wrong class yet stonewall on the issue.

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I played on Mannoroth PvP for well over a year but decided to play on an RP server just to get away from a lot of the immaturity. For the most part its worked out well. You don't find the flaming in general chat or the emo guild members (as much). As for progress, the only thing holding us back is the lack of experienced players. Now, don't get me wrong our progression is not slow by any means but I feel that if we had the same core membership with a larger recruiting base we'd be further than we currently are.

We've really been saved my realm transfers. With 10 bosses down in nax (soon to be 11) its not too bad for us to advertise on the guild recruitment forums or anythign like that. The problem is that the next guild in terms of progression has 3 bosses down in nax (our guild being the only one server-wide to kill c'thun).

RP servers just dont have as many die-hard PvE'rs as found on PvP servers. It's not the "RP" environment that kills progression.

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I can't really agree with this; RP servers on the same battlegrounds as Tichondrius in one week introduced me to more melee hunters than I'd seen the two years of playing Tich.

I wouldn't say that it is just the RP servers who have no idea how to pvp.. pretty much all pugs I've run into in BG9 are just completely terrible.

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From my experience in some of the top horde-side raiding guilds on Cenarion Circle before transferring to a PvE server, it's purely a numbers game. Less people who are interested in pushing content and less people with the time and dedication to do it successfully. Recruiting new and decently geared members hordeside was next to impossible due to the small player pool who was interested in raiding.

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I can't really agree with this; RP servers on the same battlegrounds as Tichondrius in one week introduced me to more melee hunters than I'd seen the two years of playing Tich.

So this one time, on a PvE server, there was I saw like, 3 casters, and they were like, hitting people with their staves.

OMFG PVESERVERSUX LOL L2P PLZ!!!.!!1

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I once saw this Priest from a PvE server that used Fade in the battlegrounds to try and stop people hitting him! ... Wait, that was me.

On a more serious note, I don't think the slower progression relatively speaking is related as much to RP servers as the fact that the PvP ruleset attracts more 'hardcore' players, whom are thus also more inclined towards raiding in general. We get a lot of cross-server applications ourselves, despite the fact that we've 'only' killed Maexxna/Noth/Razuvious in Naxx, it's simply the case that that's actually very advanced for a Horde guild on a PvE server.

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Thanks for posting, Thrizzle. Silence is the counterexample to the observation of slow RP server progression. I'm curious as to whether you guys did anything different, or if you feel that you had a different attitude or something else special that made things work.

The simple answer to that is competitiveness. I think that's a word.

I recall reading a thread awhile back on these very forums on why all the top guilds seemed to be from PvP servers. Seems like the same question to me.

At one point when we (a raid on an RP server) actually beat the (now #1, then) #2 guild on the server to killing the twin emperors, there were very few people who actually found that exciting. It just wasn't any kind of motivation for some people. If your whole raid really isn't trying to get anywhere fast, you don't get anywhere fast.

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I think it mostly has to do with 2 things:

a) Faction Balance. The typical rp server in eu atleast is a high pop server with 4:1 alliance to horde. Besides the fact a lot of the most competitive alliance people left because they couldn't handle the 7 hour av/3 hour ab queue before cross server bg's, there are at least in AD EU too many guilds. Really, we have around 14 alliance guilds killing Nefarian today and 0 guilds killing c'thun and only 3 have killed the twin emps (only 1 horde guild has killed c'thun). Some Naxxramas bosses have been downed, best is at Grobbulus at the moment. But even having downed Patchwerk, I still find the fact noone has managed to kill C'thun a bit disappointing and it leads me to believe that all the talent is just spread around in too many guilds/communities. The leading Horde guild has managed to actually do better than the alliance guilds because even if the horde side is much less populated, it can pretty much gather all the good players on that side, both in skill and attendance. While in alliance you can leave your guild and join another one with similar progression next week. What someone said about 10 people being really good, 20-25 being the bulk of your raid and 5 screwing up in every way possible is true more or less as well.

b) More casual players. The 2 most hardcore alliance communities I know are raiding 4 days per week, of which I think members only need to attend 2-3 days. The horde guild is more or less the same I believe. I don't think it's feasible to expect KT kills yet from guilds with such raid schedules, there's just not enough time considering they also clear bwl and AQ40 up to Huhuran at least each week. My guild raids 3 days per week and we barely get 2-3 hours to try a new boss each week for the last few weeks if that. I think raid leaders as well, mostly coming from a relaxed roleplaying background don't really discipline most guilds/communities. Part of the reason is also the player base is also mostly casual, so your hopes of replacing low attendance members with people who always show on time with consumables etc aren't really high. I think that most people in rp servers came here to escape the l33t speak crowd and find more people with similar playtimes to play with, much like I did when I first rolled on AD.

But other than that, I think that if you could measure the time spent/kills in rp servers they would be pretty well off.

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My guild, Silence, used to be on the RP server SilverHand until a few weeks ago, and we have 12 bosses in Naxx down (working on 4H now).

We're in Battlegroup 9, and we've never seen any Horde team that has given our guild groups even close to a challenge. Beyond that, the Alliance premade teams (not guilds casually grouping but real pvp teams) back on SH have also seen 95% wins in BGs.

My experiences are not proof of anything, but they are counter examples to the BS people believe about RP servers. Granted, there are people who *gasp* RP, but it's not like players are inherently worse at WoW or cannot push progression if they so choose.

On thing I will say now that I've played on an RP and a PvE server is that I wish names were policed on my PvE server because some of this stuff is insanely stupid.

Have your team leader join the BG9 irc channel and set up a game with T A O. Brullig is probably the one you'll want to talk to there.

Oh, and whoever asked: My Warlock on Cenarion Circle was named Kalika. I was in <Disciples of Light> (CC had a lot of "Of Light" guilds), <Lost Honor>, <Soul Reckoning> and <Ergo Bibamus>.

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Have your team leader join the BG9 irc channel and set up a game with T A O. Brullig is probably the one you'll want to talk to there.

Hmmm, where's this BG9 IRC channel ? :)

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We are currently downing C'thun and 7 bosses in Naxx. We do have several people who dont show up enough, dont pay attention enough, and we simply cant replace them. The recruits are just not there.

I rolled on an RP server for maturity. I didnt want to hang out with leet dudes, and I didnt want to see "Assmotron" or something, namewise, or "meandmybow". Sadly, I now see "Meandmybow" all the time in BG's, and I cant avoid it, aside from not pving, and I guess I got more maturity, but I often wonder if I shot myself in the foot, as with maturity comes kids, wives, jobs, and less raiding/interest in raiding.

Cenarian Circle makes me sad. We are high on forum trolls, and low on both RP and Raiding.

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Hmmm, where's this BG9 IRC channel ? :)

#battlegroup9 on irc.gamesurge.net. Nurfed hangs out there too because they hate their battlegroup so much :)

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This isn't true of all RP guilds, though - when I was in Shadowclan going OOC in groups and guild chat was completely prohibited, and voice chat was taboo too. The only acceptable places to go out of character were in tells and on the forums

No, it's definitely not true of all guilds, but it is true of the majority, and every guild that has any real competitive raiding ambitions.

The answer to the original question is really just: because RP servers don't care as much.

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I'd be interested to know how the RP-PvP servers are doing. We didn't have that option at release (or else I would've rolled there goddamnit!), but I'd be interested to see what kind of player that brings in. On the one hand PvP servers tend to have competitive players and great progression, on the other hand you see in this thread that RP servers tend to have worse progression overall. Supposedly. How are the rp-pvp servers doing?

The Venture Co was one of the first pair of RP-PVP servers in the EU. We're one of the most progressed Horde guilds, having taken down the Twin Emps and Razuvious (with two other guilds at roughly the same point - one of them has Anub as well as Razu, and has got C'thun to phase 2, the other at pretty much exactly the same stage of progression as us). Alliance side, one guild has killed C'thun, cleared the spider wing, and killed Razuvious, Noth, Patchwerk and Grobbulus, and the next guild is at C'thun phase 2 and has killed Razuvious.

There are 10 Nef-killing guilds now, split evenly Alliance/Horde, and 6 guilds killing the Twin Emps, again split evenly Alliance/Horde.

The server opened in September last year (just celebrated the 1y anniversary a few weeks ago), and it took until late December/early January for a decent number of people to hit 60, which is roughly when serious raiding started for most of us (there were a couple of exceptions - one Horde guild which since disbanded, and the most progressed Alliance guild mentioned above). My guild in particular started running ZG in mid-December, iirc, and finally had enough people for our first MC raid to happen on January 1st.

I'd say the comments about the "casualness" of players on RP servers is pretty true about RP-PVP as well, to an extent (possibly not quite as much, but still somewhat compared to PVP servers). We have fixed raid cutoff times, and when we hit them we pretty much just stop - we just don't have enough people who are hardcore enough to stay up until things die, no matter how much some of us officers wish we did ;) (i'm not sure if this is true for the other guilds, though - we've always had a fairly casual attitude in general; i know at least one person from one of the other guilds at our level of progression posts here, so i'm sure he can comment on them). Also, even with a relatively casual raiding schedule, finding recruits who can commit to put enough time in is challenging (in fact, a few of our recent recruits have actually been raiders from pvp servers transferring here and looking for a slightly more casual raiding environment). Luckily TVC has always been fairly well-balanced, so at least we're not dealing with a ridiculously shallow pool of potential recruits as most Horde guilds on the release RP servers will be.

Edit: and yes, i think the comments about average age on RP servers is quite probably accurate - one of the things that forces us to limit our raiding hours is the fact that a majority of our members work full time, and hence can't start before certain times, and have to get to sleep at some point. Combine that with time zone complications, and we're generally stuck raiding from 20:30 server time (which is 19:30 uk time - most of our raidleaders are from the UK, and don't get back from work until about 19:00), to 00:30 server time, by which point our Eastern European guys really need to be getting to sleep for work the next day, as it's 01:30 for them.

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I'd wager a large number of people leaving the game/their guild left in part due to becoming tired of carrying bad players.

/cheerful wave

Yep, that was us -- remember the old NOOBS group? As a class lead I used to dream of having five competent Priests that would be able to show up consistently. For our group, the situation finally became intolerable as we pushed on to Vaelastrasz -- AQ was already out, we'd been in the Molten Core for nearly a year, and we couldn't get people to show up to "extra" (zomg my weekday nights are sacred!) attempts, or farm, or gear themselves, or respec. We discussed a lot of solutions, one of which was to dissolve the raid group and form a new one from the ground up, but in the end we saw exactly what Blackpatch is writing of: the available quantity of good raiders had already been divided up into cliques that wouldn't associate.

I'm curious to hear what options other raid groups/raiders have taken to get out of the "RP sinkhole" situation. For our group, a reroll gave us an environment in which we could succeed. I guess a guild merger could accomplish the same thing if both guild leaders managed to successfully ditch their fluff and combine their cores. If all else fails, server transfers are pretty cheap...

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Feathermoon has only had four Horde groups defeat Nefarian, two of which were within the past month, and only one server-wide C’Thun kill (/wave to anyone from Catalyst reading this). There is a shortage of skilled players, but not to the extent you would think. But there is a severe drought of /competitive/, skilled players, the kind who want to put in the extra time to learn an encounter and make that final push for the kill. RP servers seem to attract a more mature audience, but also one that gives WoW raiding a lower priority in their lives.

It’s the same reason PvP servers generally have a more active raiding population, the most competitive players tend towards the most competitive servers.

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We are currently downing C'thun and 7 bosses in Naxx. We do have several people who dont show up enough, dont pay attention enough, and we simply cant replace them. The recruits are just not there.

I rolled on an RP server for maturity. I didnt want to hang out with leet dudes, and I didnt want to see "Assmotron" or something, namewise, or "meandmybow". Sadly, I now see "Meandmybow" all the time in BG's, and I cant avoid it, aside from not pving, and I guess I got more maturity, but I often wonder if I shot myself in the foot, as with maturity comes kids, wives, jobs, and less raiding/interest in raiding.

Cenarian Circle makes me sad. We are high on forum trolls, and low on both RP and Raiding.

He got a name change dont worry. Actually he reported himself. :)

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