Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Madlax

3.3 Compendium

176 posts in this topic

One thing I noticed that you didn't have in your post that you may or may not want to add is Black Magic vs 63/81sp for the various specs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Madlax could you do another test for the orc warlocks with Command - passive

Damage dealt by Death Knight. Hunter and Warlock pets increased by 5%. about 0/18/53 vs. 0/13/58, please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the last 2 posts:

I haven't tried Black Magic simply because I haven't seen any situation where haste would out-scale spell power.

For the Orc racial:

In 13_58_imp the Imp does 1002 DPS

In 18_53 the Imp does 1122 DPS(thats spot on the 12% from talents)

So even of you add 5% on top, you´re looking at 1050 vs 1178.

A difference that doesn't really matter in numbers.

I just reran the 18_53 profile with LT glyph and spirit gear and it performs better than with Imp glyph.

Even when we go ahead with Blizzards latest(imho a water drop on the hot stone) suggestion of double the Empowered Imp to 30%(excluding orc) with a quick and dirty calc:

1132 vs 1268 DPS - I'm sorry to admit, that change won't really cut it on it's own.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the last 2 posts:

I haven't tried Black Magic simply because I haven't seen any situation where haste would out-scale spell power.

Usually 63sp is better than black magic.

But it doesn't mean 63sp is always better than black magic. Haste/DPS function graph is not straight line. Just because there are some points on graph (haste values) when rotation is better. For example your shadowbolt casting time lets you recast ua when its exacly about to expire etc. So if scale factors say haste is very close to sp, I think it's best to check if black magic isn't acctually better with current gearset. Replacing item with haste can change it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Affliction

56/0/15 outperforms 55/0/16 in most(thats like 90%) of the samples I took.

I will list both - but I suggest to take the 56/0/15 spec as affliction.

By how much does 56/0/15 outperform 55/0/16? Using DP instead of LT for mana, but still using LT for a slight SP buff seems like a lot of work for a small dps gain, so if the difference between these two specs is minimal, in a real raid situation, 55/0/16 may out-perform simply because the mana supply is not necessarily ever cut off entirely (if your pet dies, for example, you can't use DP), changing the way the spec is actually used.

I haven't done any independent testing, but it would seem that a 1 point difference for using DP over LT wouldn't significantly affect the spec's dps, even if it does affect scale factors. The only possible exception to this idea would be if a specific toon's gear was greatly skewed one way or another to match a spec's scale factors; i.e., a toon with a lot of spirit on its gear will have higher dps in 55/0/16, but a toon with higher crit will have higher dps in 56/0/15. Correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By how much does 56/0/15 outperform 55/0/16? Using DP instead of LT for mana, but still using LT for a slight SP buff seems like a lot of work for a small dps gain, so if the difference between these two specs is minimal, in a real raid situation, 55/0/16 may out-perform simply because the mana supply is not necessarily ever cut off entirely (if your pet dies, for example, you can't use DP), changing the way the spec is actually used.

I haven't done any independent testing, but it would seem that a 1 point difference for using DP over LT wouldn't significantly affect the spec's dps, even if it does affect scale factors. The only possible exception to this idea would be if a specific toon's gear was greatly skewed one way or another to match a spec's scale factors; i.e., a toon with a lot of spirit on its gear will have higher dps in 55/0/16, but a toon with higher crit will have higher dps in 56/0/15. Correct?

It is roughly 1% difference in optimized sets, but I think you got the wrong idea there.

56_00_15 doesn't LT, the LT glyph works with DP as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great post thanks a lot!

How does 4p T9 245/258 compare to 2p T10 251/264 and 2p T9?

<tba>

Note: This is a hard one, I appreciate input with live gear sets tested.

As stated earlier in the thread, when playing affliction, I also found out that 4pT9 [245] is superior to 2pT10 [251].

As for demono, I noticed 2pT10 + 2pT9 gives better results than 4pT9.

This is based on dummy tests, and raid experiences.

As a sidenote, I read in another thread that a rogue's ToT would benefit the rolling corruption when playing affli, is that a confirmed behavior? I wasn't able to prove so on dummies, but I might have done things the wrong way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is roughly 1% difference in optimized sets, but I think you got the wrong idea there.

56_00_15 doesn't LT, the LT glyph works with DP as well.

Ah, you got me there. I had forgotten about that change.

As a sidenote, I read in another thread that a rogue's ToT would benefit the rolling corruption when playing affli, is that a confirmed behavior? I wasn't able to prove so on dummies, but I might have done things the wrong way.

Any straight damage increase that affects Corruption should be carried over throughout the entire fight so long as Corruption is refreshed via Everlasting Affliction. This should include any damage increase from ToT to 4pt10. It is key to point out that "damage" is a term to be isolated from spell power or spell damage. Haste and spell power buffs/procs cannot be rolled, as they are recalculated when Corruption is refreshed. Crit and straight damage buffs are not recalculated. (This is why NMIC is considered a very good Affliction trinket.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you use "Soul Leech" (13[14 with soul link for hardmodes] / 58[57]), and not the Sim.Craft "imp imp" 18/53 ?

Im quite fond of this issue, which i think EJ has had it wrong with for quite some time. The key to playing a warlock compared to other casters is learning the "Life Tapping".

- Life tap should be done when moving or when the encounter is NOT letting you dps, NOT when standing still and being able to dps.

*Some fights require longer movements --> Theese fights favours Favours "life tap + 18/53" spec (assuming spirit based gear).

* Other fights (Beasts, Mimiron for example) lets you: (A) Life tap to full mana inbetween phases. (B) move for 1 GCD every 10-20 (conflagrate used when moving) --> Theese fights favour "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.

- Demonology and to some extent too Affliction (not "Dark Pact" aff spec) req more focus on mana returns, meaning u "need" to Life Tap once every 15-35 sec (forcing lifetaps while standing still), not to go "oom" in the first few minutes.

- Destruction with "imp. Soul Leech" has ever since a gear lvl of 230+ average (roughly) not required none to very few life taps in most fight (80% plus. Only long fights require soul leech warlocks to use lifetap not to go "oom").

* Using Life Tap glyph implies you should life tap, even when u dont need the mana, to gain 75-180 SP (depending on spirit value you have)

* Soul Leech scales incredible well with intellect. It has come to the point that with full raid buff (sufficient replenishment), destruction warlocks having Soul Leech DONT have to lifetap for several minutes (fights that last roughly 5min or less = no taps).

- This spec revolves around immolate (its the spell with highest priority).

* Glyph of Immolate boosts both immolate and conflagerate with 10% damage (NOT immolate initial damage).

* Theese 2 spells counts for 25-35% of your total damage as destruction, hence a 2.5-3.5% damage boost.

- When running from fire (or similar), your immolate is up and damaging and you can use conflagrate aswell

* Immolate = benefit cloose to 100% from the glyph = 10% more damage on the spell you damage with while moving. (ME: Conflagrate = 12k average damage, Immolate = 12.5k avarage damage. 12 + 12.5*0,73,5(% damage of the dot on immolate = 21,2 * 0,1 = 2,12. Meaning 2120 more damage from immolate glyph.)

* Life tap glyph = Immolate: (75-180)*0.80(cofficient for immolate dot) = 60-144. Conflagrate: (60-144)*0,75(cofficient for conflagrate immolate conversion) = 45-108. adding both = 105 to 252. Add SP taken debuff (13%) 105*1.13 to 252*1.13 = 118,5 to 285 more damage, compared to 2120 on immolate glyph.

* Moving for 3+ GCD's (Conflagrate > Life tap > Corruption > more life taps) = Favours "life tap + 18/53" spec.

* Moving for 1[2] GCD's (Conflagrate > [Corruption/Lifetap depening on need of mana, normally no need)]) = Favours "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.

* NOT moving at all or once per minute or less (normal rotation w/o using lifetap) = Favours "immolate/imp + 13/58" spec.

Conclusion: Depening on the amount of movement required in the encounter is what determin the way you should life tap. Certain fights favours "lifetap + NO soul leech" spec , but in the majority of fights "immolate/imp + soul leech" spec is surperior. Less lifetapping helps your healers too, which can be very much needed in certain hardmodes (Anub P3 25man hc is a great example)

ps. wrote this out of the top of my head, so plz correct numerical and possible logical errors.

/Ghorogoth, MoM, Silvermoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@36

Run simcraft with the varying specs and glyphs under both PW and HS scenarios and post your results. As it stands, you've provided little more than napkin math that is by no means conclusive to one spec being better or worse than the other in any given scenario. I would imagine the HS simulation would best suit your point, so I would suggest starting there and ensuring that 18/53 w/ LT does in fact beat out 13/58 with whatever glyph is optimal based on the gear sets you're using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

chart?chs=450x270&cht=bhg&chbh=15&chd=t:13413|13293|12258|12232|12218|12072|12040|11997|11985|11934|11931|11578&chds=0,33531&chco=9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9,9482C9&chm=t++13413++Warlock_t10_56_00_15,9482C9,0,0,15|t++13293++Warlock_t10_55_00_16,9482C9,1,0,15|t++12258++Warlock_t10_00_13_58_imp,9482C9,2,0,15|t++12232++Warlock_t10_00_13_58_immo,9482C9,3,0,15|t++12218++Warlock_t10_00_56_15pdps,9482C9,4,0,15|t++12072++Warlock_t10_00_13_58_lt_crit,9482C9,5,0,15|t++12040++Warlock_t10_00_13_58_lt_spi,9482C9,6,0,15|t++11997++Warlock_t10_00_18_53_lt_spi,9482C9,7,0,15|t++11985++Warlock_t10_00_18_53_imp,9482C9,8,0,15|t++11934++Warlock_t10_00_18_53_immo,9482C9,9,0,15|t++11931++Warlock_t10_00_18_53_lt_crit,9482C9,10,0,15|t++11578++Warlock_t10_00_56_15rdps,9482C9,11,0,15&chtt=DPS+Ranking&chts=000000,20

As per general request - this is the whole Warlock collection(not orc) run including 2 Demo lock profiles(it's however applying a 100% uptime DP, need to fix that still).

I'm getting a rough feeling that any Affliction buffs should rather be minor adjustments.

Destro and Demo need their help badly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As per general request - this is the whole Warlock collection(not orc) run including 2 Demo lock profiles(it's however applying a 100% uptime DP, need to fix that still).

I'm getting a rough feeling that any Affliction buffs should rather be minor adjustments.

Destro and Demo need their help badly.

Will a different uptime of DP change the ranking (I would guess not)?

According to what GC has mentioned, both afflic and demo seem to receive ~4% additional dmg, while destro is going to get less than 2% (assuming the imp does 10% of the total dmg). Of course, this is a very rough estimation. We definitely need to do some simcrafting for more accurate data.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I dont know if anyone pointed out to you (original poster) yet but the set you have for the destro BIS for 0/13/58 is missing 3% hit. As that spec (for horde) you need 14% hit to be hit caped in raids. As allianc eyou only need 13% hit. The gear you have there only has 11.5% hit which leaves a cap of 2.5%miss rate is which isnt good. The set needs to be redone.

Edit: The same goes for demonology, missing 2.75% hit.

Wowhead does some weird stuff with their rating to % calculation with hit. If you check the rating you see it's the correct number.

To test it, look up your own character on the wowhead database and see for yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps you are not doing as good a job timing when to cut off your drain soul as Simcraft does. Remember, it's a perfect player. We are not.

On that note, perhaps the compendium would do well to include a recommended castbar or timer mod to assist warlocks in estimating the timing of ticks of drain soul to optimize that part of the rotation, which is probably the toughest thing to do well when you consider ever-changing haste values week to week and even moment to moment during a fight.

It should be also noted that of the three cast-types (under-gcd, over-gcd, channeled) SimC slaps channeled with the largest latency penalty.

You can increase this penalty further via channel_lag=some_decimal_value_in_seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Perhaps you are not doing as good a job timing when to cut off your drain soul as Simcraft does. Remember, it's a perfect player. We are not.

On that note, perhaps the compendium would do well to include a recommended castbar or timer mod to assist warlocks in estimating the timing of ticks of drain soul to optimize that part of the rotation, which is probably the toughest thing to do well when you consider ever-changing haste values week to week and even moment to moment during a fight.

Fairly old but this post still applies:

http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t37918-affliction_raiding_rotations_guide/p5/#post1012433

Basically notifies you of each Drain Soul tick. Has really helped me out with the execution phase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, a heads up for the Demonology community.

Warlocomotif and myself(Big thanks for explaining this honestly not easy topic to me) have gone through the demo profile today and optimized it heavily towards raid benefit.

I'm not sure if I will keep the pDPS profile up yet, but it will likely undergo a few changes soon.

The profile we came up with is Profiler - Wowhead which is very very balanced towards pDPS and rDPS - it gives a fair benefit for what it sacrifices in personal DPS.

I will edit the main post and add a few lines to that topic hopefully tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, a heads up for the Demonology community.

Warlocomotif and myself(Big thanks for explaining this honestly not easy topic to me) have gone through the demo profile today and optimized it heavily towards raid benefit.

I'm not sure if I will keep the pDPS profile up yet, but it will likely undergo a few changes soon.

The profile we came up with is Profiler - Wowhead which is very very balanced towards pDPS and rDPS - it gives a fair benefit for what it sacrifices in personal DPS.

I will edit the main post and add a few lines to that topic hopefully tomorrow.

I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.

The profile that was linked; Profiler - Wowhead, has off pieces with Spirit. This makes up for the Spirit lost by taking the T10 gear (BiS has 873 Spirit for Demo). Also, with as much Haste seen on the BiS profile (947 Haste without Spellstone), the gear is itemized very well to suit this spec.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder how did you calculate the raid dps benefit over the personal dps benefit. I'm still not convinced that it's good to go for 4T10 or any T10 since there is 0 spirit on them and the +hit items have +crit too, so all 5 pcs are terribly itemized for demo.

Most of them weren't actually far off from best in slot (the head was esspecially close). Also estimated uptime of 4xT10 is ~39%, which means ~3.9% damage. At 10k dps, thats about 390 DPS. To make up for a difference like that your replacements would have to do that + the DPS bonus from 2xT10. It's a given that atlest 2 of your alternatives your alternatives will need to be heavy on hit (=0 spirit), so you're basically stick replacing 2 items with spirit gear and 2 items with hit+haste (ideally) and you somehow have to gain in the area of 500 dps from that- you just won't.

The T10 bonus is simply really good, and although the items have no spirit, you'd only be able to pick items with spirit for 2 out of 4 slots anyway because spirit+hit items don't exist in ICC. Lets say you replaced the crit on gloves/legs with haste, and the crit on head/shoulders with spirit. You'd gain 212 haste, 204 spirit, and lose 416 crit (Mind you, items with those stats dont exist)- resuls: 111.36 personal dps from crit->haste, 27.21 personal dps from crit to spirit, 180.06 raid dps from crit->spirit. Total: 318.63 DPS, meaning you gain less DPS than you lost from losing the 4 piece bonus alone- yet you'd also be losing the 2 piece bonus.

Math:

Scale factors: SpellDamage=1.7642, HasteRating=1.6812, Spirit=1.2893, CritRating=1.1559, Intellect=0.4449, Stamina=0.2684

212 Crit->Haste: 212*(1.6812-1.1559)=111.36 dps

204 Crit->Spirit: 204*(1.2893-1.1559)=27.21 dps

204 spirit rDPS: 204*0.59*1.1*0.1*8*1.7=180.06 dps

Explanation of the bottom one:

204=spirit gained

0.59=glyph of lifetap+felarmor*demonic aegis

1.1=blessing of kings

0.1=demonic pact only takes 10% of your spellpower

8=8 caster dps

1.7=average caster dps spell power scale factor.

So even if you swapped those stats around in the most ideal possible way, you still wouldn't gain rDPS.

There's 1 caveat; I don't think we're 100% on wether or not 4xT10 has an internal cooldown/how long it would be if there is one.

Also a footnote; although you could argue for higher number of dps casters/average spellpower scale factor- and you might end up with more rDPS than the 4 piece bonus, theres 3 more things to consider:

[1] These items don't exist.

[2] You'd also lose the DPS from the 2 piece bonus

[3] The value of spirit/haste would drop relative to the value of crit as a result gaining more of them and losing crit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(Madlax and Warloco, thank you much for the BiS list effort)

One question on the Demo rDPS BiS list: you're using 7 SP/Hit gems; is that the most efficient way to attain Horde-level necessary hit rating? There's no other single Hit item that could make up most of that Hit rating more efficiently than having to use all of those gem slots for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We found that this is likely the best way to get the hit level.

There is the option of a ring switch - but it comes at a cost.

Other than that there isn't really any good option without sacrificing gain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(Madlax and Warloco, thank you much for the BiS list effort)

One question on the Demo rDPS BiS list: you're using 7 SP/Hit gems; is that the most efficient way to attain Horde-level necessary hit rating? There's no other single Hit item that could make up most of that Hit rating more efficiently than having to use all of those gem slots for it?

Think of it this way, we have 5x SP+Hit.

If we replaced an item to gain 50 hit, we would then gem each of those 5 sockets as pure spellpower.

What would we gain: 7x11sp.

What would we lose: 7 socket bonuses, 70 miscelaneous stats- most likely spirit.

Why spirit? Because there can't be hit+spirit on gear, meaning that if we want to gain hit we'll likely have to sacrifice spirit. There's 1 item without spirit outside of the tier pieces on our list, thats the boots. Replacing them would involve losing atleast 13 itemlevels (-18sp, -80haste, +6crit, +64hit) and would still leave us slightly shy from the hitcap.

If we sacrificed spirit for hit, say we lost 70 spirit and gained 70 hit, we would as said lose 7 socket bonuses, which is 4x5, 2x7, and 1x"4". How so 4? Well the blue socket on the chest costs us 5 spellpower from the socket bonus, the remaining 4 is what you 'gain' from the yellow socket.

So, +7x11sp, -70 spirit, -4x5sp, -2x7sp, -1x4sp = +39sp, -70spirit.

70 spirit translates into ~45sp (70*0.59*1.1), meaning we get more spellpower this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, from my PoV the Compendium is in a pretty good shape right now.

If anyone is missing anything urgent/important we should include or look into still, give me a PM and we can look into the matter and make some additions.

One of the good suggestions I got was to add Optec's Demonology video.

It is very informative and explains the Demo spec very neatly, the DPS part starts at 2:10 but it is worth watching the whole movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.