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[Enhancement] BiS gear and set-up discussion (3.3 and onward)

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Does anyone plan to tackle a BiS non-heroic gear and set-up list? Rava expressed if someone were to put together a list, he would consider maintaining it.

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While less relevant to the mission of discovering true BiS, that would be extremely helpful. I'd volunteer to help with some of the lifting, but don't consider myself competent enough to establish/maintain it.

[e] Typo

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4. With regards to reaction time, assuming the player knows which ability to use next and is spamming that key while waiting for GCD expiration, wouldn't the human element be more like ~100ms, and thus 160-180 ms for the reaction time values? Apologies if im missing something here.

The numbers requested are probably on the generous side and we can certainly get them more exact.

Way to get more accurate numbers:

1. Go to a target dummy

2. Being autoattacking the dummy

3. Cast a totem(totem is important because it is a 1 second GCD)

4. Immediately mash Stormstrike until it goes off

5. Count how many key presses it took you for the Stormstrike to go off(for me it's 8)

6. Divide 1 by the amount of keypresses it took for your Stormstrike to go off

7. Multiply the result by 1000

8. Subtract your in game latency from the result(my latency is 63)

So my numbers would look like: (1/8*1000)-63 or a reaction time of 62 MS

Before the thread starts getting spammed with latency figures, is there anything in that list that seems off or should be corrected? My figures are only included in there as an example, and is not a welcome invitation to post "I have 50 MS reaction time" posts in this thread.

Potential issues:

Dishonesty!

Lag variance

Is it enough variance when accounting for awareness during raids

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My figures are only included in there as an example, and is not a welcome invitation to post "I have 50 MS reaction time" posts in this thread.

Potential issues:

Dishonesty!

Lag variance

Is it enough variance when accounting for awareness during raids

I could be wrong but I dont think a small variation in reaction time / latency would put one piece of gear over another in the BiS list, so 230-260 is fair enough to account for network latency, spamming latency and environmental awareness. Our only other recourse would be to amass a large number of latency samples using your method above, which seems like splitting hairs.

One other small tweak to your basic EnhSim config: Changing "cast SR only if mana left" to a lower number like 1000 increases the overall dps by a tiny amount.

Lastly, would it be wise to set a minimum dps increase value to avoid posts that provide a 2 dps increase? For example, perhaps a 50 dps minimum increase in dps before a change in gear configuration will be posted? I just ran the sim twice, with a scant 10ms change in latency (240-270) and this account for ~30dps change, so I think arguments on BiS gear regarding a 30 dps change aren't really accomplishing anything.

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It doesn't seem likely that TAiaJ is one of the BiS trinkets. The non-heroic one sims out as being worse than CT, WFS and DBW. There are heroic version of 2 of those trinkets too.

Edit: I just checked some of the numbers and if the sim is modeling TAiaJ correctly, then it is indeed the BiS. If the sim is correct, does anyone have an explanation for why TAiaJ suddenly jumps in potency?

Edit2: The likely culprit is the fact that we are will easily be crit capped with WFS, and likewise lose out on 1/3rd of the effectiveness of DBW.

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I just don't understand why, fire nova being at the very bottom of the priority list, you bother taking the Improved fire nova talent in your Spec. By gemming and gearing for a maximum haste like that, we really don't have a free GCD as MW will stack very fast.

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I just don't understand why, fire nova being at the very bottom of the priority list, you bother taking the Improved fire nova talent in your Spec. By gemming and gearing for a maximum haste like that, we really don't have a free GCD as MW will stack very fast.

Maybe there aren't any better dps talents to be taken? The only place you could concievably move those 2 points too would be Reverberation - all other DPS talents are taken. A quick check with the simulator shows that this is indeed a dps loss and therefore you should put your 2 points into Improved Fire Nova.

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Has anyone simmed the numbers using Black Magic on the OH slot rather than Berserking before I was able to spot any posts to the tune of what effect that produced?

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Imp Fire nova also increases damage done by 20% and you are still going to use FN in your rotation whether it is at the bottom or not so it will be a DPS increase. Also due to the RNG nature of MW and thus our ability priority it is good to always have abilities ready so the CD reduction helps. The talent goes from a marginal DPS increase on a single target fight to one of if not THE best DPS per talent once there are more than 1 target so even at a DPS wash imp FN is the way to go.

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It doesn't seem likely that TAiaJ is one of the BiS trinkets. The non-heroic one sims out as being worse than CT, WFS and DBW. There are heroic version of 2 of those trinkets too.

Edit: I just checked some of the numbers and if the sim is modeling TAiaJ correctly, then it is indeed the BiS. If the sim is correct, does anyone have an explanation for why TAiaJ suddenly jumps in potency?

Edit2: The likely culprit is the fact that we are will easily be crit capped with WFS, and likewise lose out on 1/3rd of the effectiveness of DBW.

It's not the crit cap. It's that the heroic version of T-Bom is much better (Manifests Anger at 7 stacks instead of 8) then the regular version combined with the 4T10 set bonus which greatly exaggerates the melee aspect of our dps. Also the T-Bom just scales amazingly well with gear/weapons.

(edit) Well, it's not entirely the crit cap. That does greatly reduce the value of all that static crit on H-WFS and makes the Agility proc from Deathbringer's Will less attractive then it should be, but the big differential is that H-T-Bom is just that much better since the hit remains a constant and all the ilevel boost goes into it's proc.

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Ability priority order

[TABLE]1)|Spirit Wolves

2)|Shamanistic Rage

3)|Stormstrike if no SS debuff present

4)|Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt

5)|Flame Shock

6)|Earthshock if Stormstrike debuff present

7)|Stormstrike

8)|Fire Elemental

9)|Magma Totem

10)|Earth Shock

11)|Lightning Shield

12)|Lava Lash

13)|Fire Nova[/TABLE]

Actually that table is flawed. Item 6 should simply be Earth Shock. As you have already put item 3 as Stormstrike if no SS debuff present. So we CANNOT reach item 6 with no SS debuff present unless SS was on CD in which case item 6 and 7 fail anyway and so you get an ES regardless. ie: SS_0 and ES_SS are mutually exclusive you cannot sensibly have both in your priorities.

Also I believe that testing showed FN before LL was a slight dps improvement with 2/2 Imp.Fire Nova?

This gives a recommended table of

[TABLE]1)|Spirit Wolves

2)|Shamanistic Rage

3)|Stormstrike if no SS debuff present

4)|Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt

5)|Flame Shock

6)|Earthshock

7)|Stormstrike

8)|Fire Elemental

9)|Magma Totem

10)|Lightning Shield

11)|Fire Nova

12)|Lava Lash

[/TABLE]

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Thanks for pointing out the redundancy in the table regarding Earthshock. Removing ES_SS resulted in a 2-3 dps increase. I swapped priorities on Fire Nova and Lava Lash and I'm seeing a consistent 20 dps decrease with Enhsim. Table should be updated to reflect the redundancy.

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As for item 2, I know using Fire Elemental has limited utility or very little use in moving fights; however, it does seem to sim higher theoretical DPS for fights over 5 minutes and 45 second.

You do have to be very careful when setting the sim duration and the combat length variations. If you set it such that there is a very wide fluctuation (say the 35% that we once worked out seemed ok) then you get 5m45s +/- 35% = 345s +/- 120.75 ie: 3m44s to 7m46s which is in my opinion way too wide a margin. Simming with that wide a margin to my mind introduces a massive random factor. If you happen to get nearer the 7m46s seconds end of the scale then yes suddenly FE glyph gets really good as it can means FE can be used twice a fight if you happen to get nearer the 3m44s end of the scale then FE is utterly useless.

I cannot see the merit in comparing a 3m44s fight with a 7m46 fight they should be chalk and cheese in terms of glyph viability. Given the massive changes to EnhSim and the huge number of bug fixes and new features since Xmas I think we should re-visit what is a viable combat length variation and also what is a viable combat duration.

The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.

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You do have to be very careful when setting the sim duration and the combat length variations. If you set it such that there is a very wide fluctuation (say the 35% that we once worked out seemed ok) then you get 5m45s +/- 35% = 345s +/- 120.75 ie: 3m44s to 7m46s which is in my opinion way too wide a margin. Simming with that wide a margin to my mind introduces a massive random factor. If you happen to get nearer the 7m46s seconds end of the scale then yes suddenly FE glyph gets really good as it can means FE can be used twice a fight if you happen to get nearer the 3m44s end of the scale then FE is utterly useless.

I cannot see the merit in comparing a 3m44s fight with a 7m46 fight they should be chalk and cheese in terms of glyph viability. Given the massive changes to EnhSim and the huge number of bug fixes and new features since Xmas I think we should re-visit what is a viable combat length variation and also what is a viable combat duration.

The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.

The original reason this was come up with is because some stats/gearing MAY favour short fights and some stats may favour long fights. By having this kind of range we can gear such that we are ok for all lengths of fights. Of course its entirely likely that we end up not being "the best" at either extreme but a number of people thought that it beat possibly having to maintain multiple BiS lists.

For anyone looking to test out the Fire Ele glyph, you should realistically be testing its value starting at increasing fight lengths > 5 minutes. A BiS list will never be able to include the glyph due to the fact that it has negative value on some fights (by virtue of not having a different glyph in that slot). It's the sort of thing that is dangerous for people to blindly use. We cannot expect the BiS list to be the be all and end all for ICC Shamans. There is always some testing you will have to do for yourself in your own gear.

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The whole point of introducing combat length variation was to simulate a random tweak on the combat length. Not to simulate the difference between a 3m fight and a 7m fight. So something like 6m +/- 30 seconds would be fine, any variation that is +/- 2 minutes is not realistic.

Agreed

To get the 5:45 value I tested with 0 variation in length with switching glyphs.

Personally I generally sim 7 minutes +/- 15% giving about a minute in variation either way for my own BiS research purposes. In sims for EJ BiS comparison, I go with the OP times.

Otherwise, I may use tighter times per fight I have logs for if I wish to know particulars to when making myself slightly depressed and want to do better in future encounters.

As of now, the Professor is the only progression raid encounter that I would consider using FE glyph (fight length is too short on the other bosses). I do not actively PTR so I cannot say if future ICC bosses may benefit from this glyph choice; however, I do have a few different glyphs in my bags should I feel the need to switch.

For maximum theoretical DPS of the BiS with a 7 minute =/- 15%, FE glyph will win. +/- 35% FE glyph still wins, but by a smaller margin.

So I digress after getting OT. Looking realistically with the moving and raid awareness, FE glyph isn't practical. Fights that are static for DPS are less than 5 minutes and fights that are longer have lots of movement thus far.

Edit: Also, thanks Ryethe for the logic behind the wide length variation.

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Problem with the professor is that movement makes it less effective as you likely won't be able to Fire Nova since he will be out of range of the totem.

Still the glyph could end up being a viable option for that fight as the Fire Elemental will move with the professor allowing more consistency in the dps from our Fire Totem over that time period. Has anyone done any testing on the distance the Fire Elemental will move from it's totem? If not I can try to work out something later.

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I used fire elemental myself on professor, but for some reason it stopped moving after professor moved a bit further. While elemental shamans kept on moving. Sounds strange but it happened :/

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Since the AoE from Fire Nova emanates from the base of the totem and not the elemental, you lose significant FN dps while using the Elemental. Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure the Sim assumes that every FN hits the boss, which is just not the case on Putricide and many other mobile fights.

It is for this reason that BiS gear estimates can only be so accurate, as they assume a sort of ideal fight situation which often doesn't pan out in actual raids. Given this, we either create BiS for mobile fights, stand-still fights, AoE fights and single target fights, and every combination thereof, or we just concentrate on stationary/single target and let the player extend the results from there.

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If EJ as a community decides to create and maintain lists for different conditions, then it is almost as if saying these lists are the BiS only part of the time - a paradox since these sets would no longer be truely BiS since there would be multiple sets with one set being 'better' than the others per conditional.

As said before by Ryethe, "it is not the be all and end all for ICC Shamans" but rather the best overall. This is the reason I did not pursue my post further. However, it does make one question if there could be different specs per type of fight (moving or stationary, single target or area of effect) with the BiS gear listing.

Even so, I always used BiS lists on EJ as a guide rather than a strict metric or how-to since each fight changes from boss to boss and minute details change from week to week in playing experience. Ultimately as a guide, my opinion, BiS is a reference to improve my DPS towards the theoretical maximum where I will still have to test my current gear and make my own choices.

In the end, an ideal fight with one gear set may be the best way to go. It allows for personal tweaks and fine tuning of a player's own gear and specs along the way if they wish to invest the time to research allowing them to compare their DPS against the overall BiS.

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I was wondering about the amount of hit rating gems. I understand that hit rating applies a large role for us to be able to get all of our weapon procs. Is there a specific reason to push the hit rating to 525 (16.62%)? Just trying to figure out why to use 20 haste gems in certain yellow sockets and 20 hit gems in others.

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I was wondering about the amount of hit rating gems. I understand that hit rating applies a large role for us to be able to get all of our weapon procs. Is there a specific reason to push the hit rating to 525 (16.62%)? Just trying to figure out why to use 20 haste gems in certain yellow sockets and 20 hit gems in others.

The hit rating gems is because in such a high gear level you are going to reach the crit depression on your melee swings wich you can surpress buy gemming hit rating. Leeva/Rouncer has a quite good post about it here in shaman forum :)

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So this is my first time posting here, but i had something brought up to me that i would like someone to help with.

I've used EJ for all my BiS/info for my shaman, but recently i had a few people bringing up question to why i do. And they tried telling me that ensidia had the better BiS. Well after looking at their list and this list there are actually differences.

Now i've never used Rawr or enhsim just cause i dont understand exactly what im doing etc etc. But i at least read what you guys get from those mods.

So basically what im asking is if someone would be willing to do a comparison with this list and see if the List produced here on EJ is still better.

I only ask this cause i like the fact that here on EJ its a community working together to make the lists and there it just seems like 1 person sayin what is best.

~~ Side note are we really supposed to have that many Hit gems in our gear or is that an error and supposed to be haste? ~~

Thank you for supplying great info on everything and keep up the awesome work!

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Problem with the professor is that movement makes it less effective as you likely won't be able to Fire Nova since he will be out of range of the totem.

Still the glyph could end up being a viable option for that fight as the Fire Elemental will move with the professor allowing more consistency in the dps from our Fire Totem over that time period. Has anyone done any testing on the distance the Fire Elemental will move from it's totem? If not I can try to work out something later.

As far as I can tell, the elemental doesn't have a leash limiting it's movement. If it engages a target, it pretty much behaves like a pitbull. We haven't gotten to the professor yet, so I can't test it myself. Hope to do that Monday.

On the subject of BiS time considerations: Since Fester has a hard 5minute time limit, it seems that this should be the period to base current calculations on. It's about as optimum fight conditions as we have with minimal movement and known time restraints. Saurfang for us goes a little longer, but I believe this fight is supposed to have a target duration of 5 mins as well.

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So this is my first time posting here, but i had something brought up to me that i would like someone to help with.

I've used EJ for all my BiS/info for my shaman, but recently i had a few people bringing up question to why i do. And they tried telling me that ensidia had the better BiS. Well after looking at their list and this list there are actually differences.

Now i've never used Rawr or enhsim just cause i dont understand exactly what im doing etc etc. But i at least read what you guys get from those mods.

So basically what im asking is if someone would be willing to do a comparison with this list and see if the List produced here on EJ is still better.

I only ask this cause i like the fact that here on EJ its a community working together to make the lists and there it just seems like 1 person sayin what is best.

~~ Side note are we really supposed to have that many Hit gems in our gear or is that an error and supposed to be haste? ~~

Thank you for supplying great info on everything and keep up the awesome work!

It's a bit hard to compare the two lists as theirs is off an Orc running JC/Engi, so they are getting the 5 expertise as well as hyperaccelerators and the gem advantages of being a JC. Rava's is a Tauren running LW/Enchanting, so no racial bonus and the profession bonus is limited to just additional AP.

Also their Rawr config is using the Fire Elemental and Fire Nova glyphs which are really subpar for a single target encounter with a duration set up as our current BiS list demands. So I swapped the glyphs to WF and Feral Spirits to help their list out.

Ensidia BiS list - 11929.47

Rava's BiS list - 12223.10

Most of the difference is probably due to Ensidia's list being over the white crit cap by a significant amount when Elemental Devastation is active.

(edit - my dps value for Rava's list is a bit lower then the OP because I run with the sim set to 250-350 latency not the 230-260 specified in the OP. I closed down Rawr/EnhSim before I noticed and don't want to spend the time to reset the config for more runs just to deal with that small variation. Both lists were run with that latency though so the comparison is valid)

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