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Digo

Next Gen MMORPG Guild Features - What do you want?

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guild info pages != guild forums, voice chat, etc. Please re-read the quote I quoted.

DaOC possibly had(has?) the best guild/server info database website. I loved that.

I never questioned the technical aspect of it.

I dont understand.

Cant.. find.. point..

The person I quoted suggested the removal of Alchemy from the game. I countered that suggestion merely on the basis that Alchemy was an integral part of many generations of MMOs.

Nothing to do with consumables, or their impact on raiding.

You made me go back and read my post 3 times. I still dont see the relevance of what you are saying.

im at work , still quick&dirty writing:

1) myuo.com was a start , 10 years ago. it assited guild leaders in a basic way. from hat point on no game really took that aspect as important and relied on players doing this on their own. calling this the "community aspect" is cheap imho. without guild forum etc. a guild just cant work. and if ts is a vital part of endgame they should provide it. (of course the legal aspect of content/discussions/converations on blizzard servers created by players is another point, from a legal standpoint no mmorpg could provide guild forums etc.)

3) just my opinion on reps, a mod to payback this is trivial work. but as guilds handle this in different manners its not needed, and not a good idea to enforce it with a build in mechanism

4) point is , wow is far from beeing an exception. its about endless grinding and farming.

7) game developers define the way guilds will progress (look at wow and youll see this). e.g. at some point youll just not take your best friend or wife to raids anymore because she cant learn the heigan dance. same way a MT with tf might join the next higher ranked guild if he starts to see 20 people cant learn the heigan dance, screwing people over. fun ends when people cancel accounts, thats what social dramas bring. i dont say its devs fault but if theres a way to save a guilds progress by mechanics they should do it. so asking for something like guild owned items of value is not absurd at all. remember people dont get those purples on their own effort, its 39 others helping.

ps: guild enchanter etc. i think its in eve where a guild can own patterns and people can copy them ? is this secured in any way ?

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All depends on the dictator in question, though I do agree.

I think many people are underestimating the need for personal gain that goes with raiding. Maybe this is a bad time to set an example, with many guilds having a lot of turnover due to BC, but removing personal incentives will hinder many guilds in getting 40 online at raid time.

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All I'm saying is that the current in-game system completely favors the individual. The guild has no power over you except inasmuch as you remain eligible for future upgrades. Anything the guild has given you in the past is yours to dispose of as you please, and the guild has no ability to punish you.

I'm asking for some small shift toward guild power. Guild-owned legendaries and certain tradeskills are an example. Maybe being flagged for certain zones is another - such as Naxx? Or what if entering AQ40 required your guild to be AQ40-flagged by creating its own scepter? You don't have to take those, though - you could make up a whole different set of rewards. The point is to enable the guild to keep something when members leave. They currently keep nothing--they have no in-game stick.

Besides the fact that it would help guilds have a little more control over members, I also think it's a pretty cool idea from an immersion or lore perspective.

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The problem is when you make guild bound items, the item is still owned by someone (or someones), those items institute a more dictatorship like power. Fewer people begin to have a monopoly over the users. The issue here isn't the fact that the person leaving or the person running the guild "owns" the items, it's the fact that such crucial items EXIST in the first place. When raiding is hindered seriously by a specific set of items not existing, or being taken away from a guild, that is an itemization issue.

Thunderfurys and difficult to craft resist sets are an issue with the game itself imo. They cause drama and become an actual problem, because content is DESIGNED around them. Items should not be "required" to raid, there should obviously be gear checkpoints within encounters (or maybe there shouldn't, who knows), but there shouldn't be "Is A B C and D here, oh shit, B C and D just gquit with our Orange Item of Irreplacableness" checkpoints. That is flawed design. There should be no item that basically has that much power in any sense. Resist fights should be removed, Thunderfury will probably not have an equivilent (especially since Imp Thunder Clap is now replacing it), and the need for "Guildbound" items should be removed entirely. Orange items should be more along the lines of Atiesh, it has a really really nice benefit, but it will A) Be outdated with gear (on your entire team of course) B) It's gimmick is just a gimmick that changes nothing about your fights, just how long it takes to get to your next Khazaran raid.

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The problem is when you make guild bound items, the item is still owned by someone (or someones), those items institute a more dictatorship like power. Fewer people begin to have a monopoly over the users. The issue here isn't the fact that the person leaving or the person running the guild "owns" the items, it's the fact that such crucial items EXIST in the first place. When raiding is hindered seriously by a specific set of items not existing, or being taken away from a guild, that is an itemization issue.

Thunderfurys and difficult to craft resist sets are an issue with the game itself imo. They cause drama and become an actual problem, because content is DESIGNED around them.

could all be ruled by mechanics, and has been in games allready. and btw. wow guild tabard functions in this way

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I don't think any of those items are "necessary" - my guild never got Garr's binding, ever. It's just that these items represent guild effort far more than the effort of the individual who has them. And it's a shame for that one person to get 100% of the ownership rights once allocated. The blacksmith you pushed through TB rep with MC cores can leave the guild and take all of that rep with him. I think that's a shame, and would like to see some systems to keep some things attached to the guild rather than the player.

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I don't think any of those items are "necessary" - my guild never got Garr's binding, ever. It's just that these items represent guild effort far more than the effort of the individual who has them. And it's a shame for that one person to get 100% of the ownership rights once allocated. The blacksmith you pushed through TB rep with MC cores can leave the guild and take all of that rep with him. I think that's a shame, and would like to see some systems to keep some things attached to the guild rather than the player.

I'm not saying they are necessary at all, (well, certain resist sets ARE). When you start handling guild bound items, how is Blizzard going to make overthrowing a leader possible? They won't, and instead of having items distributed over a few people, they're now in the hands of some other people, no real reason to change that honestly. But like I said, if they just avoid anything remotely close to Thunderfury/Resist sets, the need for guild bound items will pretty much evaporate.

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as a former player who's watching the expansion updates trying to figure out if there's enough positive changes to start playing again if guild democracy or guild bound items was a feature id be about 0% inclined to play. Both steps are in totally wrong directions of headaches bliz support would never want to deal with and I doubt there's even a large enough user base that would want these features over the ones who would strongly disagree with it.

Instead of guild voting they should allow their gms to be more active in changing guild control in special situations and the only one im talking about is awol leaders who put you in a bind by quitting and leaving you with no promotion demotion power within your own guild. You might think just retagging with your new leader is easy enough but depending the size and health of the guild it can pretty much mean death of the guild.

As for guild bound items to the most extreme it was mentioned of logging in naked which really isn't plausible at all for large chunks of your gear to be owned by your tag and not you. Maybe if resist sets weren't boe and could just be traded freely instead that would make much more common sense then questionable guild leaders being able to strip items off people. Instead of that tho how about no resist fights at all ever again. Now we don't need guild bound items at all problem solved.

From the original list a guild hall is still the biggest feature id love to see put in especially if as mentioned could be pvp involved. As someone already mentioned in this thread any new gameplay features that promote any interaction outside your guild is a huge plus. I found when I was in raid guilds I had 0 reason or motivation to interact with people outside the guild because my play time was either raiding or farming with very little pvp which was the only way I ever played with people outside the guild. Problem is im pretty sure this is one of the furthest features we will see put in by bliz. I don't think they are big fans of a guild owning a building within their game world.

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I'm not saying they are necessary at all, (well, certain resist sets ARE). When you start handling guild bound items, how is Blizzard going to make overthrowing a leader possible? They won't, and instead of having items distributed over a few people, they're now in the hands of some other people, no real reason to change that honestly. But like I said, if they just avoid anything remotely close to Thunderfury/Resist sets, the need for guild bound items will pretty much evaporate.

Resist gear by itself isn't the problem here, rather it is the resist gear that can not be obtained by an individual player that causes guilds the most grief. One-faction dominated world dragons was a major issue for guilds hoping to progress in AQ. With the addition of easily crafted CC rep armour, it was no longer a problem.

In Naxx, the developers added another challenge with the frozen runes. Like Molten Core, a guild should have to put in enough time farming Naxx in order to defeat the final boss(es) of the zone. This system works fine in a perfect world, but guilds have to deal with people /gquitting or just not showing up for boss attempts. A previous poster indicated he felt obligated to log on just because he was entrusted with frost resist gear.

My solution to this is to store guild progress within the guild itself. Once you collect enough frozen runes to outfit a 40man group, the guild gains the ability to craft the FrR armour without frozen runes. This is working with an in-game mechanic as it currently exists, so it is probably not the best way to implement it, but the idea is there.

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They could come up with the elegant solution of what was suggested earlier, making a guild wide faction, but another proposition is that even if you leave the guild, you keep that faction. Instead of having Frozen Runes, you have a Reputation Token for a faction, and once you hit X faction, you can create cheap, easily accessable resist gear for your entire guild, and even if you quit (because of say, your leader is a dumbass/lootwhore), you still have easy access to resist gear. This probably removes the most amount of fuckery on both parties. It's a bit more intuitive than your solution.

Or they could, you know, remove resist fights altogether.

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I really like the ideas concerning crafting professions. At the moment, there are only a few recipes that actually enable you to make profit instead of just selling the mats. Though Blizz does buff the crafting professions in BC - if the reports from test servers are right - it would reward a guild to cover all professions and to push crafters to perfection while getting easy access to these recipes. Good crafters will be as much sought after as good equipped raiding personal at the moment. Pretty much the same applies to faction farming which is at the moment rather antisocial (good example is CoC rep). If folks can contribute together for a guildwide rep, social behaviour in guilds is actually promoted.

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A lot of replies to the "guild items" here write as if the proposal is 100% of raid drops are owned by the guild. But nobody has said that, least of all me. My own proposal is that some limited set of items or reputation--particularly the ones that require intense guild-wide effort and provide guild-wide benefits--be owned by the guild so that the player cannot appropriate the item just by quitting the guild.

The discussion on democracy only came up in response to people who asked "what if guild leaders abuse their new power?" It's not at all essential. As I said earlier, I think those democracy tools are too difficult and prone to complaints. I think your "vote" and your protection from corrupt GLs is to quit the guild.

The simple fact is that current MMOG systems allocate property rights in a specific way: once an item is on the character, that player has all rights to it. You can DE it, you can sell it, you can sell it on eBay, you can deny your guild access to it by quitting the game, etc. The guild has no power (other than soft, out-of-game factors) to prevent players from abusing resources the guild has entrusted to them. I would like to see some limited form of in-game guild power.

If this were implemented say 1 year ago, the things I would restrict would be:

- Thunderfury. (You quit the guild, you lose the item, and the Guildleader can re-assign it somehow.)

- Sulfuras. (Ditto.)

- Thorium Brotherhood rep. (I would make the grind to exalted require about 10x as many materials, but the rep would apply to everbody in the guild, for as long as they were in the guild.)

- TB crafted resist armor. (Maybe create a version that can be crafted with player-made materials that you would own. But the versions that are crafted with MC raid drops would be guild property.)

- Rare mob-dropped tradeskill recipes, such as spell power, the blue MC scope, etc. If the guild chanter quits the guild, he doesn't take the recipes with him.

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As far as professions go I'd like to see more item oriented professions, blacksmithing, leatherworking, tailoring, jewelcrafting, and few to none buff centric professions, enchanting and alchemy. If the item professions are buffed to an extent like we see in burning crusade, BoP raid quality items, then they become viable ways to progress your character outside of raiding. Having, I think, 3 teirs of craftable items, leveling gear, BoE semi-end game gear and BoP raid quality gear gives these professions a place to shine. By semi-end game gear I mean in a linear end-game progression new recipes would be added which increase the level of crafted BoE gear to just below the now end-game gear, tier 2.5 when tier 3 is out, for example, where as there would also be new recipes, not acquired through raiding, that is on par with teir 3. This does a couple of things. First it allows raiding guilds to gear up new recruits fast through crafting(and therefore you may see less recruit stealing as a side effect), crafters make money from people who can't raid so much, and the crafters themselves stay on level with the raiding populace.

I don't like buff centric professions because they become manditory for progression as we see today in WoW, and they really don't offer anything of value to anyone except farmers. Tuning becomes a lot easier, devs don't have to deal with Flasks of Death and Destruction when tuning bosses, and it would allow for guilds to be more realistic as to their goals. As opposed to saying well if we pot up and get world buffs we can definatly kill these guys, it becomes we don't have the gear and need to do X longer before we can attempt this new raid dungeon.

On guilds, and speficially guild bound items, as the game is now I could see it realistically applying to recipes and reputation. Guild Rep is a semi bad idea, if it's not tied to guild recipes in some way. I mean whats to stop someone from joing a guild with High X rep, crafting what they want with recipes they had in their bags, and hopping out to join some other guild whose trying to get Y resist set quickly. The guild would have to, probably, deligate by rank who "gets" the rep and who doesn't. But it would be and interesting system. Guild recipes would be different in a way, recipe drops, the guild, not a specific person but say a guild librarian like was discussed earlier, learns it, and then any guild member of that profession can make it, again delegatable by rank, and probably level as well. No level 1 alt GuildCrafters who can make all the sickest craftable gear, I'd imagine.

Guild Housing is something else entirely. I understand the purpose of giving the guild an identity and I see the useful ness of having guild alchemy labs and Black Anvils, but at the same time I don't see the practical implimentation. Where would you put it? Couldn't go ingame, too many guilds for that to be practical. Couldn't put it on the instance servers, server goes down and your guild house what, soft resets? No thanks. The only plausible way would be a seperate rack of servers just for instanced guild housing. But then again whats the point? No one sees your guild hall except guild members, and if every end game guild is going to have a Black Anvil and Alchemy Lab, why not just put them in the middle of Iron Forge? I don't look forward to sending guildmembers over to other guilds just to use their lab.

Something I'd like to see more of is a standardized officer system, being able to setup class officers, recruitement people, and Raid Leaders besides in Name only. Automatic class channels, healing channels, dps channels, do other guilds use these or are we just anal about keeping hunter stuff to hunters and mage stuff to mages? I'd still like to see it on a raid level. Customizable, and trackable DKP would be a blessing. Not everyone uses DKP, but at the same time having a screen in game which lets you see how much dkp you have, or the entire raid for raid leaders, would be wonderful. A few features I would like to see would be: Automatic assignment of points, adjustable by the raid leader and officers for punctuality, zero-sum, wipe bonuses, etc, assigning of points to specific mobs based on instance(raid bosses specifically), assignment of points to items(probably too much data to handle and would have to be done in some sort of FAQ out of game), A zero-sum options with an interface for inputting how many points were spent on the disbanding of the raid(this goes with the point values per item it's probably too much data to handle, and thus would need an interface for user input), Bid tracking, adjusted roll tracking which counts bids(how my old guild used to work, you bid 50 you roll 1-100 so you get 51-150, I liked it anyway).

Basically there are a lot of things you could add, but in actuality Blizzard only needs to add one. If Blizzard supports Zero-sum with item tracking for example, then thats what everyone will use by default, which is why I think we don't have these things implimented already, Blizzard doesn't want people to feel like they have to switch from a system they enjoy.

For raidleaders, specifically, I'd like a few things implimented which are probably unneccessary but would be handy. Item tracking(potions, resist gear, instance specific items(quintessence, bug mounts)) would be the most helpful, build in damage meters, healing meters, and threat meters would be beautiful. Target of Target is nice, but I'd like built in assignable MT windows, as that and the boss mods are still the only thing CT Raid is good for which the basic UI doesn't do. Basically anything a moder can create which becomes almost necessary, besides things that play for you, should already be a part of any interface. Anything we can do on paper(threat meter or damage meter for example) isn't game breaking because we know the threat values of basically everything in the game. Boss mods are just watching for Emotes, buffs, and/or using a stop watch so are not game breaking in anyway.

Anything else? Probably but this is damn long already so I'll stop.

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I agree with the concepts of Guild Banks, with a Tiered Access System, ala EVE online or traditional MUDs, Rudimentary Player Housing, where guild housing and player housing appearance and accessories can be modified by your in game habits, and Guild Imprint, with purchasable Guild NPCs, some for looks, some for a purpose (Guild vendor with a small discount?).

However, the biggest thing for me still relies in the management access. To put it simply, Guild Management shouldn't necessarily have to have so much to do with out of game access to forums and tools in order to communicate with your guild. We need an in game Calendar, not some addon the players create because of the shortfalls of WoW's guild design. We need some memory in our guild database that LOGS guild functions and events (aka A Guild Log). This log would automatically record such actions as invites, deguilds, promotions, demotions, GMOTDs, but would also support a 255 char string input from certain tiers of guild management, to insert Logs like official raid events, accomplishments, etc etc. The Guild needs more advanced Communication Control. Squelching, Channel moderation, Subchannels registered to the guild.

All in all, a more cohesive, comprehensive management interface would do ALOT for guild management.

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I think it's important to realize that, at least on my server, a whole lot of people have multi-guild raiding alliances. I don't think this is an uncommon occurrence.

My guild consists of a dozen or so of my close real life friends. I don't think it has anyone I have known for less than five years. I would quit the game entirely before I would leave my guild.

My raid alliance has people from probably... a dozen guilds, plus various unguilded people, or people in guilds of size one to three.

So, if you put into place all sorts of raid management tools that are restricted to guilds only, where does that leave my raid alliance?

The only solution I can think of is to allow people to be in more than one guild at once: you could have your group of real-life friends, plus your raiding alliance, plus your PVP team, for a total of three guilds you're in.

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So, if you put into place all sorts of raid management tools that are restricted to guilds only, where does that leave my raid alliance?

The only solution I can think of is to allow people to be in more than one guild at once: you could have your group of real-life friends, plus your raiding alliance, plus your PVP team, for a total of three guilds you're in.

Well, I don't think that the raid leader options should be guild specific, but raid only. However it does bring up the in game DKP thing again. Blizzard could impliment another teir of organization, Alliances which are guild inclusive and would have to allow players to be a part of multiple alliances, which may be a structural problem for the game code, depending on how it's setup, which may be much more complicated. Tracking DKP would then be up to the Alliance Master, or whomever.

On multiple guilds, Linkshells, from FFXI, would be a good example of how this could be pulled off, you get a token for each guild but can have only one active token at a time. So while you're going on the Arena ladder you're in your Arena token, while raiding you have your PvE token on, and then when you're just messing around you have you're Friend token up. Though this, I feel, is less necessary because of the ability to create personnal chat channels, which basically cover all of these bases at once.

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Guild Housing is something else entirely. I understand the purpose of giving the guild an identity and I see the useful ness of having guild alchemy labs and Black Anvils, but at the same time I don't see the practical implimentation. Where would you put it? Couldn't go ingame, too many guilds for that to be practical. Couldn't put it on the instance servers, server goes down and your guild house what, soft resets? No thanks. The only plausible way would be a seperate rack of servers just for instanced guild housing. But then again whats the point? No one sees your guild hall except guild members, and if every end game guild is going to have a Black Anvil and Alchemy Lab, why not just put them in the middle of Iron Forge? I don't look forward to sending guildmembers over to other guilds just to use their lab.

The guild houses could go ingame and be practical it just takes more thinking of a system that would work. Obviously if the cost to have a guild house was cheap every guild would have one making it way to much work so there needs to be a system that scales. For starters you could make it that guilds don't buy their guild houses but rent them. Size and features = more rent. This would prevent dead guilds from taking up any space in the game world or only let the higher tier guild houses even be placed in the game world and instance lower ones. Also the features don't have to be straight gold additions. Pay x amount of gold shouldn't = alchemy lab. This is an easy chance to add a quest line for the guild to work on that gets them an alchemy lab for their guild house and make gold a component at the end also to finish the quest even. Hell you could even make a it a quest line to prove that your guild is even worthy to rent the smallest guild hall in the first place. In a mmorpg your imagination combined with hardware limitations is the ceiling of what can be done.

With the raid cap falling to 25 im pretty sure its bliz intention to try and involve more players who for whatever reasons couldnt play much 40 man content. I wouldnt be suprised if after the expansion if % of users involved in end game raiding goes up so will the demands for better guild functions. I doubt we will see it untill bliz can justify the time investment relates to players interests tho.

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The guild houses could go ingame and be practical it just takes more thinking of a system that would work. Obviously if the cost to have a guild house was cheap every guild would have one making it way to much work so there needs to be a system that scales. For starters you could make it that guilds don't buy their guild houses but rent them. Size and features = more rent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. I'm just saying, specifically, where? In major cities? There isn't any room. I believe Ironforge has at most 5 empty buildings, for example, and those would be taken up pretty quickly, and be rather cramped, the other cities are the same, few empty buildings here or there. Can you add an expanding section just for guild housing? Sure you can, but how big does it get? It cannot be infinite, and yet at the same time you have to provide an infinite amount of space because over a long enough period of time EVERY guild on EVERY server will be able to afford the largest guild hall possible. Outside of cities you have the same problem, will Mankrik's wife get buried under the foundation of a new guild hall in the barrens? There just isn't enough room in the real world so the only real option is instancing the halls. But then, like I said, which server do you put these new instances on? The actual instance servers already go down enough, and the would have to be more powerful then the continent servers because worst case you would have to support every guilded player on the server, all at the same time, and imagine the complaints if the guild housing server is buggy and crashes regularly. Think heaviest raiding night on your server, except include everyone under level 60 as well. Bad times, bad bad times.

I just don't see how it can possibly be done with WoW's infastructure and number of players.

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I would just instance guild halls ala the pvp officers quarters.

I have zero interest in seeing the <SHARKS WITH LAZERS PEW PEW> guild house with their wall decoration of boar's heads spelling out "fag." See also, DAOC's housing system.

If bosses dropped remains that could be taxidermied and placed in your hall, that'd be pretty bitching too. Pretty much take everything good about DAOC's system, and then instance it.

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You know, (and I'm gonna get laughed at for bringing this game up), but I'm really looking forward to Hero's Journey in terms of end-game design, simply because no end-game (in the sense that we know it) is present. I'm actually quite exicted with the system proposed, which is full interactivity iwth the world at large, and having a non-persistent (or is it persistent, I can' never keep the straight) world interaction model. The way it really differs between WoW is this: in WoW, no matter how many times you kill Nef, no matter how many times you cut off his head, no matter how many times you loot is bloody and decapitated body, NOTHING CHANGES. it's even reflected in the lore that Blizz has released; kazzak opens the portal (despite any number of guilds killing him) Nef and Onyxia are scheming (nevermind how many times thier head goes on a pike or in chains outside the city gates). For all the heroism that is purported, nothing you do matters, since the players of the game are living in an eternal 'now'. The major difference in HJ is that player actions have real reprecussions, both for themselves, and for the world at large. They're not saying that all boss encounters are going to be unique events, but eventually people of note will stay dead, or be succeeded, or replaced, and the world will EVOLVE.

Imagine if you logged on one day, went to BWL, and were greeted not by Razorgore, but by a huge festival of Dark Iron Dwarves who moved in when Nef was ousted, with new drops, new encounters, new bosses, and new strategies. That's something along the lines of what is being proposed.

As for a grind for consumables/materials/what have you, well, there doesn't seem to be much of a need for it in-game. The devs are being kind of tight-lipped about any form of crafting, but one thing that they have been absolutely adament about is that they will NOT have a crating system like any of the other games out currently, simply because it's not really crafting more than it is manufacturing. The only proposed system set is individual customization of armor and weapons/items to suit individual player's playstyles and personal goals. As for potionmaking, or mass produced goods, it's not looking like such things will exist, simply because it's not 'heroic', nor is it really fun, as was pointed out by the OP ("...and loggign on 30 minutes early to make all the potions for the raid is pretty boring..")

As for the guild system, well, we're still working on giving the devs our input at the table, and there's still no beta, closed or otherwise, to find out how many of our suggestions are being implemented, but the system seems to be very well created and thought out, taking some of the better ideas and implementations from SWG, EQ2, Lineage, and a couple others (a LOT from EQ2, God that system is good), while simultaneously setting the stage for inter-factional conflict and guild wars very fluidly.

What gets me the most excited though is the individual attention they are giving each player (I'll post more on that after I get back from work and get off my raid). Suffice it to say, though, that each player will ahve a truely unique experience, allowing for rerolling over and over and never experiencing the exact same thing levelling, ever.

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Going to agree with Revenj here, asking MMO developers to socially engineer their game is kind of silly. Better guild functionality would be great; guilds are vital to every MMO. But websites/chat programs/DKP tracking and all that stuff should be left to the players. And keep in mind the majority of players don't raid, so creating this huge interface purely to support raiders seems a bit unnecessary. But almost everyone is in a guild, and that should be important/recognized. Trophy halls for kills and such would be especially cool, and maybe the ability to periodically click "nefarian's head" to give your guild a buff, or even an anniversary buff at a certain point.

As for a "Next-Gen MMO," let's try and steer away from what you want in the next WoW patch or expansion, and have some more expansive ideas.

PvP

Blizzard has given us fun, fast-paced PvP, but it also effectively changed players into mobs to grind and nothing else. TBC is adding some world objectives, which is nice, but I think a next-gen MMO needs to go the extra distance with making PvP a vital and important component in the game. For players who don't want to PvP, add in PvE objectives that support PvP, not the other way around. For example, how about instead of trying to take down the big dragon who is threatening the world, our side wants to take him down in order to get his Uber Sword of Power so that we can win the war against our enemies? People already PvE to get better gear for PvP - write it into the Lore. This isn't just a cosmetic change, either. This MMO would use outdoor mobs to really advance the PvP game, granting long-lasting buffs or cities or something to the side that wins - something with actual consequence.

Developers always say everyone PvEs but not everyone PvPs, and they make PvE affect PvP, but only through gear inflation which actually hurts PvPers. How about the PvE raiding guilds actually advance the goals of the war effort through their actions, so each side needs the questers to get the One Ring, and those on the front-lines fighting against the enemy, and they work in synergy with one another.

Movement

The next-gen MMO needs to cut with the basic walk and jump movement and give us some real 3D modes of transportation like City of Heroes. Why can't wizards fly? Why can't they make others fly? How about battles on flying dragons who spit fire at each other while their riders cast spells/shoot bows, etc?

Server Events

It may cost a lot and be difficult to impliment, but the next gen MMO has to start seriously using unscripted, GM-driven events to bring some real life into the gameworld. And I don't mean some lame water elemental spawns in Azshara, but serious GM-controlled invasions that groups of players need to fight off, and can earn recognition for doing so.

Just some ideas

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UO implemented votes on guild leadership ~10 years ago. its also had housing and you could give certain members access on crates (2+ access rules). theres still that guild tower on my account on SP :p, but i have no idea whos playing that accout atm.

ive seen democratic ruled guilds in wow just go down the drain because of lobbyism. hive mind, common sense is the only way, that and a few good leaders. if you sense the smallest sign of people not following or disobeying rules, handle it before its too late. one spoiled bee will crack up your hive.

guild administration and tools should be outside of wow. having dkp inside and from blizzard would make it hard to have your own tool and systems that people accept. the only good way would be a basic token system on that guilds can build their own rules. e.g. bosses give tokens to everyone but maybe guild/raid leader decides who can trade it in for an item. players own their tokens and can carry them over if they change guilds ... still flawed but anyways, why do i still not have a dft after 50 bwl runs, is that fair ? 40 tokens per boss would allow to cover more things than just dkp

in fact : end game raiding affects less than 20% of the playerbase. blizzard investing more resources on raid&guild administration would not make sense.

ps: i love the idea of removing consumables and buffs when entering raid instances. would make design of encounters better. difficulty would scale more with gear and skill, not with consumables and buffs - money/time

I think UO got so many things right, despite its obvious flaws (why other MMORPGS didnt blatantly copy UO's transport system is something I will never know). However, a question which I have and would really appreciate to see what other people respond with is whether the motivating factor for cooperative effort (i.e. raiding) should be loot - so many issues seem to fade away in my eyes if gear was not the prime mover.

To take UO as an example, where you lost everything upon death. Furthermore, you had a consumable requirement on top of a mana requirement for ALL spells (everyone used some form of magic). What happened was that the focus was on consumables instead of items that would persist with you after death (Im not sure what WoW is - its becoming close to needing both consumable and persistant items).

The focus on consumables away from persistant items does present certain advantages - casuals can operate on a level equivilent with hardcores, however hardcores can operate for longer times. There were guild wars where the number of stores and other logistics were important. There are other advantages.

To return to my main question: Can a raiding game BE INCENTIVIZED BY FACTORS OTHER THAN A PURPLE CHASE? Another incentive previously mentioned was that many many people do care about their online appearance and therefore success in a raid or killing a boss would confer a certain appearance to a character or guild hall. Status matters. Id love to hear what you guys think.

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The problem is when you make guild bound items, the item is still owned by someone (or someones), those items institute a more dictatorship like power. Fewer people begin to have a monopoly over the users. The issue here isn't the fact that the person leaving or the person running the guild "owns" the items, it's the fact that such crucial items EXIST in the first place. When raiding is hindered seriously by a specific set of items not existing, or being taken away from a guild, that is an itemization issue.

Thunderfurys and difficult to craft resist sets are an issue with the game itself imo. They cause drama and become an actual problem, because content is DESIGNED around them. Items should not be "required" to raid, there should obviously be gear checkpoints within encounters (or maybe there shouldn't, who knows), but there shouldn't be "Is A B C and D here, oh shit, B C and D just gquit with our Orange Item of Irreplacableness" checkpoints. That is flawed design. There should be no item that basically has that much power in any sense. Resist fights should be removed, Thunderfury will probably not have an equivilent (especially since Imp Thunder Clap is now replacing it), and the need for "Guildbound" items should be removed entirely. Orange items should be more along the lines of Atiesh, it has a really really nice benefit, but it will A) Be outdated with gear (on your entire team of course) B) It's gimmick is just a gimmick that changes nothing about your fights, just how long it takes to get to your next Khazaran raid.

Beautiful post. This is exactly what I was talking about (except for the Atiesh comment). A whole different (and in my humble opinion preferable) paradigm can be seen if the whole difference between a new level 60 and a veteran is the amount of consumables ONLY. Then the focus of a guild is on logistics. A pity that consumables will probably be deemed a pejorative term.

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To return to my main question: Can a raiding game BE INCENTIVIZED BY FACTORS OTHER THAN A PURPLE CHASE? Another incentive previously mentioned was that many many people do care about their online appearance and therefore success in a raid or killing a boss would confer a certain appearance to a character or guild hall. Status matters. Id love to hear what you guys think.

I wouldn't mind achievement badges/pips on my tabard. Like a badge for killing Hakkar/Ossirian/Rag/Ony/Nef/C'thun/KT. Actually I'd prefer being able to put a big spike on my shoulder and wear Onyxia's head around, but I doubt that would be very feasable.

Alternatively, special mounts that become available to members when their guild has killed a boss (well, of course each player who wants said mount also has to be there for the boss kill).

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i love the tabbard ideas, instead of having everyone grind FR/NR items, let a guild grind tb/cc rep and they can get some big fr or nr tabard (tho resist block fights are the devs cheap idea to buy time).

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