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Lanthon

ICC Crimson Hall-Blood Princes

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This is a confirmed hotfix. It pretty much removes the option to use a ranged tank, since aggro generation shouldn't be any problem now for the regular tanking classes, which was the only real benifit of having a ranged tanking class. Well, that, and maybe the ability to gather orbs more efficiently although in my opinion that's more dependant on the player than the class.

Edit: You didn't really need a ranged tanking class in the first place.

I don't see how that removes the possibility of a ranged tank. To be honest it makes it easier. Although any melees are usually due to the ranged tank moving to close to him.

In regards to mitigation, a meta speced warlock can get up to 41 % reduced spell damage and still provide 400 + spell power to the raid.

The fact that he starts at 1 hp allowing the warlock to spam execute abilities on the pull ensures a huge threat lead that you can ignore for the rest of the fight and concentrate on orbs.

However I'm curious how this will pan out on heroic, when I'm quite sure a larger health pool would be needed.

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Has anyone tried intentionally allowing kinetic orbs land as a part of their strategy? I think we spent an entire night trying to find the perfect moment to let them land, and might have succeeded a few times. Not advocating anything of the sort, though.

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What is unclear to me is whether they "bounce" or despawn upon landing. Sometimes when they land I've experienced a ping pong effect where I get knocked around multiple times, but this could be due to getting knocked close to Valanar. If they do explode and despawn when they land, and you're set on healing, I think it'd be worthwhile to let them land in 10. In 25 dps is pretty spread out and losing 1-2 dps on orbs is not that big of a deal.

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I have to agree with those saying the hotfix for melee hits helps ranged takes, not harms them.

We had zero problems using a Warlock tank, but had multiple single-digit wipes due to him running up to the Warlock and smashing him in the face for 60k. Without the risk of melee hits, ranged tanking should be pretty easy now.

We will likely go back to using a Warlock instead of a melee OT, as it seems to make the positioning easier in general and the tank can freely move around the room as needed.

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I tanked Keleseth on 10 man last night as a survival hunter with Hawk Eye (41 yard range). It was extremely easy to autoshot every Nucleus in the room with minimal movement, and my health never dipped very low. In fact, once I'd gained a bit of a threat lead on Keleseth, I was able to spend most of my time DPSing the other bosses and even helping with Kenetic Bombs. The hotfix really made range tanking trivial -- the only thing you need to consider now is who can gather the Nuclei the easiest.

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I tanked Keleseth on 10 man last night as a survival hunter with Hawk Eye (41 yard range). It was extremely easy to autoshot every Nucleus in the room with minimal movement, and my health never dipped very low. In fact, once I'd gained a bit of a threat lead on Keleseth, I was able to spend most of my time DPSing the other bosses and even helping with Kenetic Bombs. The hotfix really made range tanking trivial -- the only thing you need to consider now is who can gather the Nuclei the easiest.

We used other casters to tank Kaleseth so i didn't have a chance to test this, but have you tried using your pet to "pull" out of range Nuclei towards you? If that was possible it would even further reduce the required movement and allow for more dps time.

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The tuning on the 10man version seems way off. There were so many kinetic bombs spawning that in such a big room with so few people and depending on group makeup where you might not have much ranged at all it just seemed pretty unfeasible.

With myself being the only ranged assigned to kinetic orbs in our 10man, i found that while three orbs are active at once if i could send the oldest orb as high as possible when the third appeared then i could effectively ignore it. Over nine wipes and a kill the oldest orb never got anywhere near reaching the floor using that system. This was before any hotfix went live but it seemed to work well for me, only close call's were my own fault for getting greedy on dps time.

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To quote the great thinker John Cleese; "And now for something completely different."

I posted this on the holy paladin forums as it seemed most suited there but got very little feedback (none), so I figured I'd try here. On one of our 25man attempts we had a holy paladin who bubbled something for safety reasons and then targeted by an empowered fire orb, followed by blowing up all the melee. Has anyone else noticed the fire orb requiring a none-immune (possibly in a certain range, we weren't able to verify whether said paladin was potentionally too far away) target?

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That actually doesn't sound like new behavior - a previous example of a boss doing just that would be Twins' conflag. If a mob has a spell that it targets at a specific person and that person goes immune (vanish, divine shield, etc) during the cast, it will hit a different target when the spell finishes. Generally this only occurs if the target was legal when the spell began and then activated the immunity during the cast time.

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That actually doesn't sound like new behavior - a previous example of a boss doing just that would be Twins' conflag. If a mob has a spell that it targets at a specific person and that person goes immune (vanish, divine shield, etc) during the cast, it will hit a different target when the spell finishes. Generally this only occurs if the target was legal when the spell began and then activated the immunity during the cast time.

The empowered fire orb doesn't have a cast time, as far as I know.

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Just for the record, I iceblocked an empowered fire orb on my mage and died anyway. Unless it was some kind of fluke due to latency, it appears to ignore immunity effects.

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We can assume then that the fire orb works like other spells with delivery times. I.e. calculated mechanically on finish of cast, not on impact.

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Is there anything other than hitting the ground that can cause a Kinetic Bomb to explode? Last night we had two Bombs blow up in mid-air for no apparent reason. Confirmed by the person in charge of them and by two other people who watched it happen--the bombs were nowhere near the floor, ceiling, or even any of the walls. They just exploded out of the blue. Out of 4, maybe 5 learning attempts for the majority of the group who hadn't seen the fight before (only myself and the person handling Bombs had), we only had it happen on two Bombs.

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How are people handling the healing in 10 man? The raid healing required is so much higher than any other fight in the game so far. I've seen logs where people are 2 healing it, and that seems insane, but maybe there is something my raid is missing.

We used 3 healers and the "two tanks + ranged tank" strategy. Our guild had another kill this week, using only 2 healers ("insane" pretty much summarizes what they said). That said, they had a shadow priest who provided a whopping 2800 HPS, due to VU profiting from the damage buff as well as helping out with shields and even some heals.

My impression from the fight is that if you use 3 tanks (two physical + one range), you more or less need 3 healers, as you just have too many targets taking damage spikes. As soon as healers need move, it gets pretty risky.

If you just use two tanks without a ranged tank, thinks should look brighter. In that case, a composition of a holy paladin + holy priest or (proabably better) druid, should do it.

In any case, as long as the group has the necessary dps to run with 3 healers, I would do so. 2 healers will always be risky as soon as movement is involved, so why waste valuable tries?

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Is there anything other than hitting the ground that can cause a Kinetic Bomb to explode? Last night we had two Bombs blow up in mid-air for no apparent reason. Confirmed by the person in charge of them and by two other people who watched it happen--the bombs were nowhere near the floor, ceiling, or even any of the walls. They just exploded out of the blue. Out of 4, maybe 5 learning attempts for the majority of the group who hadn't seen the fight before (only myself and the person handling Bombs had), we only had it happen on two Bombs.

This is unconfirmed by myself but our orb bouncers claim that if there is a DoT on the orb when it despawns naturally it will still explode. Take this with a grain of salt but once they decided this it didn't happen again.

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I posted this on the holy paladin forums as it seemed most suited there but got very little feedback (none), so I figured I'd try here. On one of our 25man attempts we had a holy paladin who bubbled something for safety reasons and then targeted by an empowered fire orb, followed by blowing up all the melee. Has anyone else noticed the fire orb requiring a none-immune (possibly in a certain range, we weren't able to verify whether said paladin was potentionally too far away) target?

We had a Mage Iceblock during his cast. This resulted in the orb immediately detonating when the cast finished, all but wiping out our melee.

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In any case, as long as the group has the necessary dps to run with 3 healers, I would do so. 2 healers will always be risky as soon as movement is involved, so why waste valuable tries?

While I generally agree with your point about using 3 healers, it should be noted for those that are confused by this: The only thing valuable about those tries is your time. Blood Princes is not a "limited attempts" boss and therefore if you really wanted to perfect strategies, you could simply try it out 20 different ways.

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We used 3 healers and the "two tanks + ranged tank" strategy. Our guild had another kill this week, using only 2 healers ("insane" pretty much summarizes what they said). That said, they had a shadow priest who provided a whopping 2800 HPS, due to VU profiting from the damage buff as well as helping out with shields and even some heals.

My impression from the fight is that if you use 3 tanks (two physical + one range), you more or less need 3 healers, as you just have too many targets taking damage spikes. As soon as healers need move, it gets pretty risky.

If you just use two tanks without a ranged tank, thinks should look brighter. In that case, a composition of a holy paladin + holy priest or (proabably better) druid, should do it.

In any case, as long as the group has the necessary dps to run with 3 healers, I would do so. 2 healers will always be risky as soon as movement is involved, so why waste valuable tries?

Conversely, my 10man this week used three tanks (two pallys and a DK on Kelseth) and only two healers, myself a shaman, and a resto druid. We had no real issues with healing, and to boot, I died stupidly to a shock vortex about two thirds of the way through. It was a one shot, but it became immediately obvious that our Kelseth tank (frost DK) simply did NOT take damage that a rejuv couldn't out heal, and the other two tanks were kept up with lesser healing wave and an earthshield. We had our arcane mage handle the falling orbs, and found that to work well for us.

Ultimately, we found that a druid raid healer was more then enough to keep the raid alive, and a resto shaman kept up with any gaps as well as keeping up the tanks. I do not write this to "show off" per se, but to illustrate that three healers isn't completely necessary, and to show that even losing two DPS (one mage and one DK), the loss of incoming raid DPS due to orbs staying in the air was a major help and demonstrates that this encounter isn't a major DPS check - bringing extra healers if you're having trouble is totally viable.

One interesting thing about the encounter though, unrelated to your post, is that I found that the orbs did not move upwards with my Flame Shock on them. I expected them to move up due to the initial damage of FS, and to ignore the DoT portion, but it seems that the orbs simply refuse to recognize FS entirely. Did I simply miss the upward movement, or have other shamans encountered this as well?

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One interesting thing about the encounter though, unrelated to your post, is that I found that the orbs did not move upwards with my Flame Shock on them. I expected them to move up due to the initial damage of FS, and to ignore the DoT portion, but it seems that the orbs simply refuse to recognize FS entirely. Did I simply miss the upward movement, or have other shamans encountered this as well?

Flame Shock (the initial hit) worked fine for me when I used it on the 10-man version yesterday.

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Edited: got the wrong log, nevermind - but here's a better use for this post slot:

Ultimately, we found that a druid raid healer was more then enough to keep the raid alive, and a resto shaman kept up with any gaps as well as keeping up the tanks. I do not write this to "show off" per se, but to illustrate that three healers isn't completely necessary, and to show that even losing two DPS (one mage and one DK), the loss of incoming raid DPS due to orbs staying in the air was a major help and demonstrates that this encounter isn't a major DPS check - bringing extra healers if you're having trouble is totally viable.

When comparing your log (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis) with ours (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis), it becomes obvious that your group was able to prevent much more damage than we did. The HPS numbers for 2 healers looks surprisingly close, only that we needed one more.

So much better execution is obviously possible, and in that case, the third healer isn't necessary, I agree.

Regarding Midecis comment: you are correct, council doesn't consume tries.

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The first time we tried Blood Prince we did it with a Warlock. The Warlock caused several wipes, but also the boss mechanics were pretty unclear (He Just held 3-4 nuclei at the same time and often got melee killed).

Yesterday we did it with 1 Warrior tanking the 2 melee bosses and 1 Pala for the Caster. He allways had 6 nuclei on him. Melee dmg was nerfed by 10% but iam Pretty sure a decent warrior would also have handeled that.

So for Ilvl250+ Tank Groups i would suggest 2 Tanks and 3 Heals. (3 Heals for the reason that it's much safer). This will also make your fight very static and cleaner and you can pretty much ignore most of the abilities of the Encounter as 3 Healer just need to heal 1 Tank and hot the other.

However i am sure the tactic with 1 warlock 2 melee tanks and 2 or 3 heals is also possible, but more complex and thus just harder

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As a resto druid in 10 and 25 mans its pretty easy to gather orbs. We are very mobile as well as we can just FF something. I don't do the fight in tree form, but to be honest the fight is fairly trivial as long as people understand the mechanics.

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Edited: got the wrong log, nevermind - but here's a better use for this post slot:

*snip*

So much better execution is obviously possible, and in that case, the third healer isn't necessary, I agree.

For kicks and giggles, Here is the log you were referring to. I agree that our execution was the cause of our success: I died due to a bad mistake, and our druid had to heal to the finish.

To echo some of the other posts about their Kelseth tank: in our 25man, we used a warlock, and in our 10man I linked above we used a DK. We originally tried getting our pally to tank Kelseth in our 25man, but the warlock's range and ability to instantly get aggro on stray orbs ultimately made him the better choice.

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As a resto druid in 10 and 25 mans its pretty easy to gather orbs. We are very mobile as well as we can just FF something. I don't do the fight in tree form, but to be honest the fight is fairly trivial as long as people understand the mechanics.

How are you able to hold aggro over the DPS? Or are you just gathering them for the other tank to pull off of you?

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