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Prince Keleseth Tanking Discussion (Moved from the 3.3 Compendium)

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People are making this way too complicated. Tanking Kel is 2 button face roll and quite a bit of fun, actually. I think probably any spec could do it, but if you've got Soul Link, Nether Protection, Molten Skin, and Master Demonologist with Felpup, the damage will be laughable. You don't even need to wear PVP gear. The only time there's any stress at all is when I have to remind the healers to heal my pet from SL damage.

Bind the following macro to a conveniently spammable button.

/target prince keleseth

/cast searing pain

Bind every other key to Rank 1 Curse of Agony and mash your face into the keyboard.

Seriously, though... it makes it easy. Spam the searing pain macro while you look around the room for DN. When you see one, target and tap Agony. Use Rank 1 so they don't take a lot of damage. Go back to spamming your macro, which will automatically target and cast. You don't have to worry about where you are because he'll follow you, so just watch out for vortexes while you're running around getting orbs, and it's not a bad idea to drop your portal at your starting location so you can get back there quickly. It also helps to have a hunter MD. Not that you necessarily need it, but since the prince only has 1 HP at the start, the hunter can use Kill Shot to give you a massive threat lead. A few Searing Pains and no one is ever going to pull off you. Even if you spend the majority of your time running across the room for orbs or keeping gravity bombs up in the air, he'll stay on you.

Enjoy the change of pace.

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And as an aside for those who don't realize it, demo locks that are on DPS duty can spam Soul Fire the entire fight. If you incinerate one of the princes who isn't empowered, it'll proc decimation for the one that is. Make a few target, cast macros so the switching is easy, and you'll destroy the DPS charts. Unfortunately, I haven't had occasion to do it because I've been on tank detail every time, but I talked to a demo lock, he tried it and confirmed that it worked.

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Ok, my little 10-man guild is looking on starting up this wing, and I have a few questions about being the ranged tank.

I've seen a few videos (namely the TankSpot ones), and read more than a few posts that claim "just toss pets on the beach balls, all will be well". Does the blueberry do enough damage/swing fast enough to keep a single beach ball from landing on the ground? I ask because I'm the only permanent pet class in my 10man, but I still think my group would benefit from this if it works. On that note, can I outrange sacrifice? I plan on testing this myself in a non-combat method when I can log into the game, but I still think its a worthwhile question.

Do the shadow resist orbs stay with you if you demonic teleport around the room, even if they are not currently dotted before/after the TP? (Assuming noone else tags them, as they apparently have a "who last hit me?" aggro table)

Thanks in advance for any responses.

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Ok, my little 10-man guild is looking on starting up this wing, and I have a few questions about being the ranged tank.

I've seen a few videos (namely the TankSpot ones), and read more than a few posts that claim "just toss pets on the beach balls, all will be well". Does the blueberry do enough damage/swing fast enough to keep a single beach ball from landing on the ground? I ask because I'm the only permanent pet class in my 10man, but I still think my group would benefit from this if it works. On that note, can I outrange sacrifice? I plan on testing this myself in a non-combat method when I can log into the game, but I still think its a worthwhile question.

Do the shadow resist orbs stay with you if you demonic teleport around the room, even if they are not currently dotted before/after the TP? (Assuming noone else tags them, as they apparently have a "who last hit me?" aggro table)

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Yes, melee pets work just fine. However, even in 10 man, I believe that the orbs can overlap, so if you only have 1 pet class, you'll need someone to be on top of it. My 10 man has 4 pets, but the hunter handles it by himself, pet on one and auto shot as necessary. That said, it'll stay pretty close to the ground with a melee pet, so if the pet dies, there's very little time to react before the bomb hits. That happened to us in 25 when I put my felhunter on one of them. The healer let him die when I was too far away to health funnel, and we blew up 2 seconds later.

I do question the use of the blueberry for tanking kel though. The bubble isn't going to be particularly effective as you have to time it for when he's going to hit you with spike damage, and one hit from him per minute is all you're going to be able to mitigate. You'd be much better off picking up Master Demonologist and using the felhunter. 10% magic damage mitigation from the pup plus 25% mitigation from Soul Link (if you're glyphed) plus 6% reduction with Molten Skin is all you need. 10% mitigation all the time > 8K mitigation once per minute. Plus the issue of range from your pet is non-existent as long as the healer doesn't let him die.

Last question, yes, the orbs stay on you if you teleport.

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I was tanking this, but now that he no longer melees..... we've found a feral tank to be far better as it allows healers to focus more (beacon) and you to dps. You may want to suggest this.

The bear can tank 2 princes. Orbs are immune to swipe (it won't kill them), and faerie fire is a ranged direct damage attack in bear form that will stick orbs to them. Swipe/md aggro is enough since the princes are only focused 1/3rd of the time.

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I was tanking this, but now that he no longer melees..... we've found a feral tank to be far better as it allows healers to focus more (beacon) and you to dps. You may want to suggest this.

The bear can tank 2 princes. Orbs are immune to swipe (it won't kill them), and faerie fire is a ranged direct damage attack in bear form that will stick orbs to them. Swipe/md aggro is enough since the princes are only focused 1/3rd of the time.

We also switched to having a normal tank tank him. We use a DK tank, who IT or death coil's the orbs and otherwise pumps high aggro moves into the prince. I still do it in 10's, since we don't have a spare tank, but even in 10's I wonder if the right answer is what you're doing. Have 1 tank with 2 princes on him, and someone else ferry the orbs to that tank.

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I was tanking this, but now that he no longer melees..... we've found a feral tank to be far better as it allows healers to focus more (beacon) and you to dps. You may want to suggest this.

The bear can tank 2 princes. Orbs are immune to swipe (it won't kill them), and faerie fire is a ranged direct damage attack in bear form that will stick orbs to them. Swipe/md aggro is enough since the princes are only focused 1/3rd of the time.

Interesting idea. That might be the way we have to go for heroic. Unfortunately, my guild doesn't have a bear tank. Our only feral is a kitty, and if he switched to bear, we'd lose just as much dps. Plus, he's a keyboard turner/clicker. Somehow still manages to do great dps, but I'd worry about his ability to efficiently gather orbs and keep threat. If he were a real tank, it might be different.

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My guild has never used ranged tank on him. He did over 20k melee attacks but thats not something a 58k HP paladin can't take.

Personally I do not see any advantages a warlock has over a standard tank in this fight.

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We used a Destro warlock with SL/NP and 300 SR in the first week.

Our alts used a Spriest with stamina gear.

This week we opted for our 60k hp feral druid that would just FF the nuclei.

Have to say, that worked very well - except for the 1 rogue that pulled some strange aggro.

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay - Hyo in case you want to check.

Granted, that makes warlock tanks look a bit obsolete for now - who knows how the HM will be.

Min range requirement? SR needed? We certainly make fine tanks, so don't throw your gear away yet.

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If you are using a normal tank on Keleseth, it doesn't have to be a feral or DK - for the last 2 weeks we've been using 2 warriors, 1 tanking Keleseth and pulling nucleii with throwing skill, and 1 tanking the other 2 bosses. Works fine.

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And as an aside for those who don't realize it, demo locks that are on DPS duty can spam Soul Fire the entire fight. If you incinerate one of the princes who isn't empowered, it'll proc decimation for the one that is. Make a few target, cast macros so the switching is easy, and you'll destroy the DPS charts. Unfortunately, I haven't had occasion to do it because I've been on tank detail every time, but I talked to a demo lock, he tried it and confirmed that it worked.

I'm interested to know if anyone has theorycrafted this ? Assuming you are not tanking of course you will effectively giving up 1 shadow bolt every 10s on a mob just to proc decimate.

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Easily tanked it as standard destro spec/in dps gear this week, just using 1 searing pain on the nuclei and a normal dps rotation on keleseth, if keleseth was second empowered I had some tricks/md's to help with threat though as I'm collecting the nuclei's first(trying to have as many as possible) And switching a bit when threat is high enough to the prince that is empowered.

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Heads up to those of you using demonic circle teleport.

You can outrange the nuclei and that is a very bad idea during empowered phase.

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The problem with having a non ranged tank is that many melee classes have abilities that will pull the DN off the tank. Even using a moonkin we found that if he got too close to the melee on the boss he would run into issues keeping the DN on him. There are not many abilities in the game that will be as effective at keeping the DN on the correct player as rank 1 CoA.

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Do the shadow resist orbs stay with you if you demonic teleport around the room, even if they are not currently dotted before/after the TP?

They stay with you, but the buff they give you has a range, few attempts I got instagibbed because I moved to fast, to correct this I just had my camera zoomed out and had my pet pick the Nuclei up and bring them to me and then rank 1 CoA. Doing it this way seemed to help a lot because not only does it keep Keleseth stationary, but you have a more consistent location for healers and I found that I was easily able to keep aggro up and dps the current target when not having to worry about running around.

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I'm interested to know if anyone has theorycrafted this ? Assuming you are not tanking of course you will effectively giving up 1 shadow bolt every 10s on a mob just to proc decimate.

You wouldn't even really need to theory craft it. Go to TOC and test it on the dummies. The melee dummy can be reduced to 1 HP, so you can try a rotation of SB or Inc on it and then switch to decimate spam. Factor out your Inc or SB damage and you can see how your effective dps would compare.

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We used a Destro warlock with SL/NP and 300 SR in the first week.

Our alts used a Spriest with stamina gear.

This week we opted for our 60k hp feral druid that would just FF the nuclei.

Have to say, that worked very well - except for the 1 rogue that pulled some strange aggro.

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay - Hyo in case you want to check.

Granted, that makes warlock tanks look a bit obsolete for now - who knows how the HM will be.

Min range requirement? SR needed? We certainly make fine tanks, so don't throw your gear away yet.

I used my current secondary spec to tank it & it was quite the joke (as if normal mode isn't already). I think most people, myself included completely forget about the buff we get from MAster Demonologist. With a fel hunter out you take 10% less spell damage.

Include that with Soul Link, Soul Link Glyph, Molten Skin, plus a Effulgent Skyflare Diamond, & you're looking at a passive 43% spell damage reduction.

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In 10-man, we just had the two tanks tank all three bosses and just had the Warlock, which was me, DPS so we didn't lose DPS. In 25-man, I am sure you need all three tanks but 10-man, it's easier to focus heal two people instead of three and you lose DPS.

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I used my current secondary spec to tank it & it was quite the joke (as if normal mode isn't already). I think most people, myself included completely forget about the buff we get from MAster Demonologist. With a fel hunter out you take 10% less spell damage.

Include that with Soul Link, Soul Link Glyph, Molten Skin, plus a Effulgent Skyflare Diamond, & you're looking at a passive 43% spell damage reduction.

It doesn't stack additively, it stacks multiplicatively.

.75 * .94 * .9 * .98 = 0.62181

So it's around a 38% passive reduction.

Anyways, I noticed that the Shadow Resonance DoT that the orbs do doesn't seem to be reduced at all from the other stacks. Since you end up getting DRs on the effectiveness of each additional orb, would it end up being more ideal to "save" some orbs for when is going to fall off at a given stack amount in order to take less overall damage?

Edit: I couldn't find out how often they tick, so I did three figures, assuming 1 seconds, 2 seconds, and 3 seconds. I also assumed Keleseth was chain-casting, so the numbers are slightly skewed in favor of having more orbs. Also, the numbers are pre-talents. I figured that the numbers would work out to be the same ratios with or without talents.

10-man numbers:

  • 1 second interval
    • 3 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 3000 = 5929.33333
    • 4 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 4000 = 5904.06667
    • 5 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 5000 = 6237.64333

    [*]2 second interval

    • 3 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 1500 = 4429.33333
    • 4 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 2000 = 3904.06667
    • 5 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 2500 = 3737.64333
    • 6 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^6) + 3000 = 3804.46817

    [*]3 second interval

    • 3 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 1000 = 3929.33333
    • 4 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 1333 = 3237.06667
    • 5 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 1666 = 2903.64333
    • 6 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^6) + 2000 = 2804.46817
    • 7 orbs - ((16000 / 1.5) * .65^7) + 2333 = 2855.90431

25-man numbers:

  • 1 second interval
    • 3 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 3000 = 6387.04167
    • 4 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 4000 = 6201.57708
    • 5 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 5000 = 6431.0251

    [*]2 second interval

    • 3 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 1500 = 4887.04167
    • 4 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 2000 = 4201.57708
    • 5 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 2500 = 3931.0251
    • 6 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^6) + 3000 = 3930.16632
    • 7 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^7) + 3500 = 4104.60811

    [*]3 second interval

    • 3 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^3) + 1000 = 4387.04167
    • 4 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^4) + 1333 = 3534.57708
    • 5 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^5) + 1666 = 3097.0251
    • 6 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^6) + 2000 = 2930.16632
    • 7 orbs - ((18500 / 1.5) * .65^7) + 2333 = 2937.60811

25-man numbers up. Seems the only real shift was in the 2s.

Also, these numbers are only for non-empowered tanking. It's pretty obvious that during an empower, max orbs is less damage.

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I usually tank Keleseth for my guild. I use my normal Demo spec (0/55/16) with SL and Felhunter for 30% spell dmg reduction. I use my normal dps gear but change both trinkets with the Brewfest 170 sta-ones to reach 33k health and give the healer a larger buffer for accidents.

The pull starts out with getting his attention using 2 Searing Pains, then CoE, then one more Searing Pain to make sure he stays.

At this point you start looking for Dark Nuclei. Use CoA rank1 - it is by far the best option to keep nuclei on you. It lasts 24 secs with tics every 3 secs (even with accidental aoe from dps you'll get the nuclei back fast), does almost no damage and is instant so you can cast it while running. Pick up 4 orbs like that.

Now fire 1 SB to apply impr. SB debuff on Keleseth and build to about 120k aggro on him using Searing Pain. This should be enough to give you time to grab new nuclei and built more aggro during an empowered phase without any panic.

Keep looking out for nuclei and grab all you can get since they'll die anyway and be wasted if you don't. Don' be afraid to spend time running for them or call for other raiders to ferry distant ones to you if you experience a shortage in your area.

As for the question wether to use a normal tank or a ranged one do what suits your raid composition best. Since he stopped melleeing the only advantages I see using a ranged tank is that grabbing nuclei is easier and you don't lose dps having dpsers brining them to your tank. Furthermore the mellees need not worry too much about aoe dmg when on Keleseth.

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Well, one of the advantages to using a warlock as the ranged tank is the massive potential for damage reduction. I went with a 0/33/38 off-spec just to see how much of a joke I could turn it into, and the amount of damage reduction really is ridiculous. I'm not entirely clear on how these are calculated, but when specced for it you can have 6% from Molten Skin, 25% from glyphed soul link, 30% from nether protection and 10% from master demonologist. You can also use demon armor for an additional 26% healing recieved, and when wearing my pvp gear fully gemmed with stamina I have over 43k HP fully buffed!

Clearly, this is all completely unnessecary for normal mode, but maybe it'll be useful for heroic! One can hope.

Anyway, yeah, that's the best reason I can think of to use a warlock tank - I don't think any other class has as high survivability. Even death knights have puny survivability relative to us when they don't have their cooldowns active. Parroting the posts above, searing pain gives more than enough threat, and rank 1 CoA makes sure the orbs definitely stick to you for quite a while without doing any damage to them.

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I did it last night with my Affliction pvp template, with de voidwalker. If you have threat issues in destruction or demonolgy, affliction is great for that, beacause keleseth is low life at the begining of the fight: DRAIN SOUL !

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Have tanked Prince Keleseth many times on 10m with this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

What you get:

Soul Link + glyph=25% damage redirected to pet

Master Demonologist + felhunter=10% less damage taken from spells

Molten Skin=6% damage reduction

Nether Protection=chance on hit 30% damage reduction for 8 secs

Demon Armor (if your gear is high enough to keep threat)=26% bonus healing taken.

Put your felhunter in a good spot (middle-back of the room) and have a holy pally beacon you and holy light spam your pet. This really helps you run around to collect the dark matter balls. Aggro was never really an issue with searing pain for initial, then grabbing 4-5 balls quickly and then spamming searing pain constantly. When you get down to 3 debuffs dot a couple more dark matters and go back to pain spam.

On another note. If you aren't tanking him use your imp and put him on a kinetic bomb.

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Tanked it on heroic 25 a few days ago. I went in with 43k hp stam set and proposed 0/33/38 spec (including SL glyph) and... it was a huge overkill...

Here's a damage taken snapshot:

dmgtaken.jpg

With as few as 3+ nuclei incoming damage is laughable and easily handled by 1 resto druid.

Nothing wrong with playing it safe but you might save a lot of gold and still do it without any stress.

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My guild has never used ranged tank on him. He did over 20k melee attacks but thats not something a 58k HP paladin can't take.

Personally I do not see any advantages a warlock has over a standard tank in this fight.

When he was first released (January 19), Keleseth had a really nasty melee attack, which is why a ranged tank was required. This was removed in a hotfix on January 22, and I believe most guilds have found in normal mode that a regular tank is now easier to manage, and requires less expense on the warlock and doesn't require any significant changes to raid composition.

The theorycrafting thread is still useful, as many guilds continue to use warlock/mage/shadowpriest tanks successfully, but it is no longer mandatory to the fight strategy, as it was when the fight was initially released.

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