Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Zyla

Feral DPS Attack Cycles

100 posts in this topic

I'd like to just re-iterate a few good points in this thread.

Option 1a: Close with Bite, you have 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) Shred;

else FerociousBite;

--

Option 2a: Close with both, 2/2 Blood Frenzy

if(numberCP < 4) shred;

else if(number CP == 4) FerociousBite;

else if(number CP == 5) Rip;

Those 2 are the choices I'd take.

The first makes common sense to me, but it should be highlighted. Don't "waste" CP's. 4CP -> Finisher, -> Crit Shred, is alot better than 4CP -> Crit Shred -> Finisher.

Not sure at what AP levels a 5CP Bite > 5CP Rip, but that's for your own calculations. (Also, I'm unsure on the AP Scaling of both spells, anyone help me on that?)

Use the rune fairly early in the fight so that it will be up agian. When the rune is activated, begin a shred/shift/shred sequence and do FB's when your combo points are at 4 or 5. After that, do shifts at much longer intervals, mainly after a FB. Use druid bar to watch your mana. Use a pot after every single cooldown.

The Rune is an insane item, especially with the caster white attacks in between (normally hit for more than a cat form swing, as well). It's basically Cat form's Adrenaline Rush, on a 1 minute (?) shorter C/D. But if you have bad latency it won't be worth it. (Try it out next BWL run on Ebo or Nef, see if you can make it work well)

Shifting after an FB is very important. You will find a DPS increase if you do that, due to a "free" 20 or 40 energy.

Other than that, it's basically the normal, what you'd expect information:

Shred > *.

Ensure OoC is up at all times.

Don't use TF. (This whole post is aimed at druids with the same gear as OP)

So:

{Shred until you are 4 or 5cp

FB

Shapeshift}

repeat

with Rune Activated:

{{Shred

Shapeshift}

repeat until 4 or 5cp

FB

Shapeshift}

repeat

==

One thing i'd like to see if it was worth it is a little weapon found in Gnomeragan.

It's a 2h mace, ~15str, and has an "On Use:" of "Increase your attack speed by 50% for 30 seconds". From arall reports it has 3 chges before it runs out, has 0 cooldown, and is NOT unique.

Thoughts?

Edit: I guess the buff would only be active if you have the weapon equipped. So it wouldn't be worth it, losing the AP from a feral mace, for 50% more white dps.

edit:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0zLVhoZE0MsfbdtV

Pure DPS Spec, agree?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Playing around with Tangedyn's cat calculator, which I've generally found to be very good, I've always got higher sustained dps levels from 5 point FBs than 4 points so I wouldn't necessarily proclaim 4 points was the way to go. While you do avoid wasting combo points on a crit you're also reducing the energy efficiency of the finisher in question.

On another note in terms of maximising dps - make sure that you're not using any more energy than necessary when using FB. The conversion of extra energy to damage is an atrociously inefficient one, far better to use that energy for anything else if you have the option - if you have enough energy to do something else and then bite do so, doesn't matter that it will assumedly waste combo points because it will still deliver better energy efficiency than FB's conversion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting call their Meddler, I thought a while ago I read that for the most efficient FB finisher usage, it went 3CP -> 4CP -> 5CP, in that order.

I was under the impression that while you get smaller values, it's more energy efficient to use the lower numbers. Has this changed with AP scaling FB now?

I'll see if I can find where I got that info from.

edit:Tangedyn's PHP Calc definitely indicates that FB-5 > FB-4 for DPS. I'll keep looking tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do recall seeing some claims along those lines a couple of months back too so would be most interested if you can track anything useful down. Issue reallyy depends how much faith you want to put in said calculator - just spent a little while playing around with absurd levels of crit and/or AP but can't duplicate any situation that favours a 4 point over a 5 point though the gap is admittedly narrow.

Has also just occured to me that the more frequently you're using a finisher the more often you're exposing yourself to the risk of it missing and therefore losing all the energy from it, making the 5 combo point versions yet more efficient on average. +hit gear can work to negate this as an issue of course.

Edit: Have also been trying to track down the AP scaling on FB/Rip since this has a substantial effect on which to use under ideal circumstances based on crit rate/AP. Seem to recall initial tests showed a different scaling rate for each of them but only link I can find on the Blizzard Euro forums claims 0.25 damage per AP for both which would indeed eventually favour FB over rip due to Natural weapons/feral aggression/possibility to crit. Anyone got some confirmed or at least evidence supported figures to hand?

Edit2: The amount of AP contribution to finishers also depended on the number of combo points being used as well from memory, will try and track that down too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why i use the Unending Life Set- Even if you miss, you don't lose any energy, you just hit it again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-If you don't have improved shred and don't have a lot of attack power, but have the cat idol and Ferocity + Savage fury, use Claw and shred only on OOC procs (if applicable).

Even with high AP, (around 2.1-2.2k without any consumables in my case) without improved shred, claw > shred. The extra combo points make up for any slight efficencies gained with non improved shred v claw.

For those looking at Tangedyn's calculator, another good tool to play with is "Druid Stats" by "Dracmoore" I believe he posted a link on EJ a while back (and has reposted below). This uses similar calcs to Tangedyn's page, but takes glancing blows and similar into account.

FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

In live, I rarely have a problem with rip being knocked off early, even if hunters are being stupid and spamming stings rip tends to stay around for a while.

Time any +AP trinkets (earthstrike, jom, etc) to coincide with any finishers, as they tend to scale better with AP than base skills. (shred with NW and a 40% crit rate would only be 0.2475 damage/AP vs .264 damage/AP for rip with NW)

Edit: correct spelling of Drac's name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FB scales at 0.15damage per AP, Rip at 0.24damage/AP (both x1.1 for natural weapons) From recollection I think it worked out to be somewhere over 50% crit before FB became better than rip on average.

That does match my recollection just after the patch came out of the tests being done on the test realms at the time. Feral agression and the amount of AC mitigation your target have will also tip the breaking point crit wise one way or the way on top of that plus the Mangle debuff should shift the balance substantially in Rip's favour come the expansion/content patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the basic comparison of RIP vs FB:

Using the OP stats I got:

10% mitigation:

FB - Avg 1686.784943

RIP - 1545.72

FB on average (with the OP's gear) will hit for more.

at 15% mitigation:

FB - 1593.074669

RIP - 1545.72

FB still hits for more.

My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.

Uses 0.24 as the AP scaler for RIP and 0.15 for FB.

Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

Also, the Cat DPS Calculator ( http://tangedyn.275mb.com/cat-dps.php ) indicates that the OP will do more DPS using FB, than Rip.

Basically, i'm not sure where you got that 50% figure from Melthar, but it doesn't seem to add up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Using the OP stats I got:

10% mitigation:

FB - Avg 1686.784943

at 15% mitigation:

FB - 1593.074669

My calcs included the 15% FB talent. Natural Weapons. 5 extra energy being eaten on every FB.

Could I get some details on how you're calculating those values based off the OP values? Getting slightly different ones which is bothering me using the approach of:

FB

((AP*0.15 + FB base average)*Feral Agression*Natural Weapons

=(2123*0.15 + 817)*1.15*1.1

=1135*1.15*1.1

=1436 average pre crit on zero mitigation targets, so 1957 average assuming a 36.25% crit rate as specified. 1761 then on average incorporatin crit on a target with 10% AC mitigation.

Edit: Just realised I haven't got the 5 extra energy being eaten by FB in here which would make up some, but not all, of the difference.

Rip by contrast I get a similar though still slightly different value

(AP*0.24 + Rip base)*Natural Weapons

=(2123*0.24 +942)*1.1

=1597

Regarding the 50% crit figure quoted I'm assuming that was as a reference to the relationship of 0.15 and 0.24 disregarding the Feral agression bonus and the base damage both abilities have. At extremely high AP levels where that base damage that is able to crit in the case of FB is a insignificant proportion of the total damage I would expect 50% crit to be the break even point with the extra 15% FB damage talent, under present conditions this definitely isn't an issue though on low AC targets.

Edit: On the subject of 4 vrs 5 combo point FB - call me daft but just realised that the FB-4/FB-5 options on the dps calculator may actually refer to the rank of Ferocious Bite not the number of combo points which does open that issue up again if so.

Assuming that is what's actually represented there then http://tangedyn.pbwiki.com/Cat%20Fight%20Patterns is the best thing I've been able to find, based off the older Cat Simulator though which from memory wasn't quite as accurate (don't know details of why). Does still favour FB5 slightly especially once the risk of losing energy on a miss/converting extra energy more often is taken into account.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, I put the talents of NW and FA in before I did the AP scaling. (I tacked the AP scaling on afterwards, so the order was wrong).

Your figure's are correct, which tip the scales further in FB's favour at the OP gear level.

(~20% Mitigation, both Finishers deal the same damage, anything less, is in FB's favour)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 50% figure was probably my own calculations, which does not include the 15% to FB talents.

Checking against the cat sim, this looks to the case, with 1DPS difference at 50% crit/2200AP/5hit on 10% DR..

So without FA, rip's your best bet. with FA, FB takes over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Theres a 1 sec GC on shifting. Whats fun is that if you can swap in a 2h, you can make it obey your 1 sec attack speed if you time it correctly when you shift out. As soon as you shift out you could swing a 3.80 instantly. I almost wonder if you could macro in a gear swap so i could swing, say a tuf when i shift out after the bite.

An interesting thought, but I found that when shifting back to cat, you wont start attacking again until the delay of your 2 hand weapon passes. So for instance, you shift out, swing TUF, shift back to cat, then you have to wait 3.8 seconds before you start auto attacking again, may not be worth the weapon swap.

Like everyone is mentioning, 5 shreds then FB is the optimal cycle, I don’t use rip because its not that much higher, and its not worth the debuff slot to me. FB will pass it in DPS when you get enough crit as well.

Im not sure if Blizzard intended for powershifting to increase DPS, but if you use it at least once after every combo, a Wolfshead helm will boost your DPS much more than southwind. The trick is, how much shifting can you do a fight before going oom? Fully raid buffed, using rune, and popping mana potions etc you can shift after every 3-4 combo points and probably last all of the patchwerk fight, maybe even shifting more frequently than that. Once you get the hang of powershifting you can try to time the shifts between energy ticks so you lose no energy, if you want to push your DPS to higher levels you’ll want to get as many shifts in as possible…..anyways…

If you cant tell, I like powershifting, I have spent a lot of time modeling it and studying Cat DPS, in fact Tangedyn got the idea on how to model blood frenzy off my formula, Tang then vastly simplified the horrid equation I used to model it, thanks to him/her? with the new simplified equation it was much easier to make changes to shifting DPS. If anyone is interested I compiled it all into a visual basic program that I have posted here before, its been updated a lot since then though, it basically lets you chose the gear/buff/talent/enchant/dps cycle (including powershifting) set-up you want and shows you what your DPS would be, among many other things.

If people want to see the code to edit I may be able to upload the source.

Download: http://www.savefile.com/projects/888616

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Powershifting is but a pale shadow of what it once was...swiftshifting 60% reduction, wolfshead helm and no furor delays were pretty nice in the pre-1.8 days. Probably not worth even bothering with it now though. Natural shifter is hard to fit in a PVE feral build too.

I'd like to DPS on patchwerk, just to see what I'm capable of, despite the fact that I'd probably get wrecked even with damn near close to the best feral gear in the game (our mages and rogues are absurd). But we've had healer attendance issues lately so even though im pure feralol build right now I'd be stuck healing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've thrown around the idea that if any DPS app can't beat Mu on patchwerk (or me for that matter, although my gear's nowhere as complete as Mu's), that app gets denied. More of a joke than a serious thing, Mu could and would beat our warlocks and maybe some lazy hunters so it's not necesssarily fair. :)

Ah well. Not like I'd ever get to DPS Patchwerk anytime soon. Lack of shamans lately + chain heal strat = ftl. We still one-shot them, but we need every shaman we got on pumping out those heals. All that enhancement gear sitting in my bags make me weep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now you must also remember, that FB eats all your energy, RIP doesn't. That's not taken into account here, as my calcs only showed the pure figure's for which a 5CP finisher would hit.

This is actually a plus when using FB for powershifting. You want to utilize 100% of your present energy, shift/shift, be back at 60 energy (or 80 if using wolfshead) within the 2-second global cooldown. Any residual energy is wasted. You can do this with rip also, you end up with a forced longer cycle as you wait for energy to drop to zero or something less than 5 due to shred/rip expendatures.

Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Here is some practical experience though with this strat: You really want to manage your mana. This means similar principles as managing the 5-second rule when healing. Go for long regen cycles when low to maximize your out-of-5secRule-time. In that respect, the 5-point FB strat may end up being overall more solid.

Powershifting is no-joke in terms of added DPS. It is like a mana-based adrenaline rush. You can expect to get between 50 and 90 extra sustained DPS from that tactic on a long fight depending on the strategy you employ and how efficient you are. In terms of short term burst DPS, it is incredible and can boost your output by much more than that. It is also a fantastic way to utilize gear like genesis with respect to converting mana to damage in what is a not-too inefficent manner.

Here is the catch though - it is very very timing sensitive. If you are not doing the 0-60 energy thing reliably each time you are not realizing the potential. It is really only useable when you can set up in a static position and get into a rythym with respect to the timings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has anyone actually done some calcs on 4-point versus 5-point FB recently assuming raid-buffed crit numbers? 36-39% crit is fairly standard for a fully buffed feral druid. You are approaching 2/5 probability of loosing a combo point if you shred agian on a 4-point stack. That equates to (ROUGHLY!!!) 2/5*300 damage loose over a long duration. Given that, it actually seems rather close either way. Hmm...

Sadly only 4-point rip, 5-point rip, and the 2 different ranks of Ferocious bite at 5 points...see the link I posted earliar. Heres some numbers based off of ideal feral gear (atiesh etc), buffed to obscene levels on alliance side with onyxia buff off that calculator:

2779 AP

45.8% crit

5% to hit

and using Rune of Meta

vs

Lvl 63 mob with

8.6% miss

8.6% dodge

10% armor reduction

Shred -> 5 point rip: 677.11

Shred -> 4 point rip: 677.97

Shred -> 5 point rip -> shift: 736-807.7

Shred -> 4 point rip -> shift: 753.99-849.35 dps (note dps is inflated because you shift more frequently with 4 points after a combo)

Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5): 689.26

Shred -> 5 point FB (rank 5) -> shift: 751.56-819.25

Edit: These calculations include Omen procs, so are a little bit higher than what Tang's model would show

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THe whole : Is a feral druid a viable tank for HS dmg was a joke seeing that we had about 20 of those threads on these forums...

Some ppl didnt get it... ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rip will get knocked off on Patchwerk, let the Warlocks have their debuffs.

If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm, otherwise you're going to be spending so much time in Cat regenning mana that Southwind/Furors/PvP Helm beat out Wolfshead.

I've always been a fan of the 4 point finisher for both energy efficiency and maximizing combo points. With over 33% Crit, you'll average 4 combo points from 3 Shreds, and have 16 energy in remainder after the 3rd shred, making it ideal to FB after the next tic. The energy-Damage conversion with FB is pathetic, and I prefer wasting as little energy on it as possible.

When powershifting, tying a weaponswap macro to a TUF with Crusader and taking the free swing will give you more DPS than not doing it. Getting a hit for 826-955 with a chance to proc for +100 Str is well worth losing 2 auto attacks in catform (you already lose 1.5 + lag seconds switching back to catform, so the time cost of TUF is only <2.3 seconds.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you guys keep JoW on the mob, I'd say go with Wolfshead Helm

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since a druid in cat form doesn't have a mana bar, JoW doesn't proc. :(

On this point, i'd also like to note that BoW and Mage Blood Potion's (the zg craftable pot, that regens mana) don't work in feral forms either.

The best (and only?) way to improve your regen, would be to get the ZG Zanza (+50stam, +50spir) and a Gordok Green Grog, oh and the Argent Dawn Water (I doubt the BL spirit buff would stack with the ZG Zanza, and you'd get the Str / Agi one, anyway).

Basically, Spirit will enhance our feral regen, while mfs will not.

Well, this used to be the case when I roughly tested it a long time ago, if it's been changed, i'd be happy to be wrong.

edit:

Fantastic Calc Drac. I was using the old DSv1.0 yesterday for my testings. Tangedyn doesn't have your updated calc linked anywhere.

The amount of Burst DPS possible, is quite astounding. The number's are really amazing (Around 1000 burst DPS with decent, attainable gear).

Now to get a Rune of Metamorphisis for my alt... ><

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any experience with powershifting under a slight degree of lag? Due to my location (NZ) I'm typically looking at around 400ms or so and haven't bothered extensively testing such an approach personally on the assumption that the losses due to difficulties keeping the timing accurate enough to be efficient would be high enough to make it better to just stick to just a standard attack pattern.

Haven't had much luck the few times I've had opportunity/inclination to try powershifting under appropriate conditions - wondering whether anyone else under similar latency has had more luck/similar conclusions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next BWL try out Nef / Ebonroc (ask your tanks not to taunt the heal off each other, to extend the fight)

That is ofcourse if QED still do BWL for the little gems in there.

@Drac: Are you able to add to your Calc, a 3 and 4cp FB finisher? (for both r4,5)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Basically, Spirit will enhance our feral regen, while mfs will not.

Well, this used to be the case when I roughly tested it a long time ago, if it's been changed, i'd be happy to be wrong.

I am 100% sure that this used to be the case. There were some changes to the way mana regen was applied in one of the last 3 patches and my conclusion at the time via some testing was that mana/5 did seem to now have an effect.

HOWEVER, I probably need to carefully recheck this, and I encourage others to do the same. When I log on I'll do some test with and without my pure mana/5 items and report what I find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, reguarding the whole "Power shifting" thing, I recently obtained Field Marshal and my guild lets me DPS in raids every now and then so that my grind didn't go 100% to waste since I already had mostly T2. Anyhow, I was wonder whether it would be better to use things such as my Gloves of Enforcement and maybe the AB shoulders over the FM set for the extra hit and crit, or would it be better to stick with the FM set for the extra mana for the shifting? I can easily pull top 10 depending on the fight and I've gotten in the top third on rasuvious before (My guild isn't greatly geared).

I'm not used to DPSing in raids because in my previous guild, you were frowned upon and laughed at so I'm just looking for some pointers in which gear to use IE swap out some dps gear for mana regen gear to keep shifting what ever, you get the point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With ferocious bite, each extra point of energy (with rank 5) = 2.7 damage before mitigation, which if compared to shred, (225% + 180), even without the 225% is very poor dpe. If you managed to get the extra 48 energy for whatever reason, that's still only 129.6 damage. Even if you had 100 energy when you FB, the FB bonus (65*2.7) wouldn't equal the flat 180 gain from shred.

If you end up with 83 energy after applying your cycle # of points, through unlucky strings of misses or whatever, it seems it'd be more beneficial to throw a 6th shred quick to get more use of the extra energy, and then couple it with the FB right after.

I'm not quite sure how to put it into any kind of formula though, 83 seems definate since you know you'll instantly have the energy for both attacks. 63 seems like it would depend on your energy tick timer, and I'm not quite sure how to create a forumla for it. If you end up between 75-83, it might even be more beneficial to claw->FB instead of the flat FB.

Plus I don't have a clue as to how AP factors into FB now. I haven't had a reason to look that deeply into feral since the change.

I know its rare, but those unlucky strings of misses do occur, and this might be a way to save it a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.