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Rivkah

The Survival Hunter in 3.3

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I don't know that this is already posted but shouldn't you always have 3/3 points in trap mastery now (3.3.2) becuase of the deathbringer fight. Since whenever I raid ICC pug or guild hunters are always on blood beast duty and the improved duration of frost trap is nice to help kite the beasts

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The base duration for frost trap is 30 seconds, extendable with the talent for up to 39 seconds. If the spawned blood beasts aren't dead by 30 seconds (ranged DPS aren't switching, etc), another 9 seconds won't really help much. That is why MM hunters can uphold the Beasts duty as effectively as SV hunters, except probably lack of snap aggro on more than one beast (first beast can be snapped by Distracting SHot) gained through LnL proc.

EDIT : As pointed out by Kraxis below, correcting the error on additional trap duration (3 to 9 seconds).

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Trap Mastery grants 30% duration buff, not just 10%. However I agree that 30 seconds should be enough. The only issue I have found is the beasts leaving the trap area. For that I also drop a Snake Trap, thus I know the beast I focus will be slowed for as long as I need it to (while helping the other ranged with their beasts).

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So then trap mastery is not as important as putting points into improved stings if someone has the t9 2piece bounus?

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There is never a debate about trap mastery versus improved stings. Due to the way the survival talents are configured, you need the 3 points from trap mastery to get to the next tier of talents. The only other useful talent you can take is hawk eye, which is situational. Trap mastery isn't worth a lot of dps however, so if you do find a use for hawk eye (on some fights like princes, dreamwalker and putricide it can be useful) it's not a big problem to take it over trap mastery. According to my math one extra explosive shot fired on a 5 minute fight is enough to make up the dps lost from trap mastery.

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But if I were to put points into improved stings then isn't there another tier that I have to go down? I would just check but I go a little slow on my itouch

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Regarding where to move those 3/3 Imp Stings talents when dropping 2xT9 for 4xT10:

3/5 IAotH is a solid alternative for SV, as the increased shot frequency improves the uptime of 2xT10 proc and the foregone 30% buff to SrS damage is not as pronounced when SrS crits are not possible. Auto-Shots are our #2 damage dealer, buffed by ArP and Haste on our gear and it enables the Glyph of the Hawk if you are one who believes Glyph of Explosive Shot is losing value at higher crit levels or that Steady Shot is not used as often in raid combat as it is in simulations.

Other places to move 3 Imp. Stings talents to:

- Resourcefulness – Reduces CD of Black Arrow by 2 seconds per talent, marginally increasing LnL procs and BA DoT damage, but only if you really use it on CD.

- Expose Weakness 2/3 is enough for ~95% uptime. Many hunters dropped to 1/3 with 2xT9 allowing SrS to crit. Check the spreadsheet per talent to see what that 1/3->2/3 delta is worth.

- Hunting Party – 1% agi per point which is still considerable with raid buffs and procs like Death’s Verdict, Vrykul from DBW

If you're going for 4xT10, it's worth using a mouseover serpent sting macro and getting better at multi-dotting in place of some steady shots, as each active sting scales the proc rate of the bonus by 5%. Glyphed SrS is 7 ticks, and the 5% proc rate means you may get a proc over the duration of 3 Serpent Stings on a single target. Your mileage may vary when fishing for procs, but even without T9 or Imp Stings, a glyphed SrS has a higher DPET than Steady Shot if it runs its full duration, from a raw DPS point of view.

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Trap Mastery grants 30% duration buff, not just 10%. However I agree that 30 seconds should be enough. The only issue I have found is the beasts leaving the trap area. For that I also drop a Snake Trap, thus I know the beast I focus will be slowed for as long as I need it to (while helping the other ranged with their beasts).

Thanks for pointing out the error, Felandra. I tend to refrain from putting down snake trap during Saurfang's fight though. It was confirmed in one of the hunter threads that beasts hitting snakes may provide Saurfang with additional BP. This might not happen every time though (usually only when the beasts are rooted instead of snared), but due to occasional glitches that can occur when an NPC is forced to aggro someone at ranged position (hitting the nearest melee target instead, Putricide's volatile ooze case, etc.), I prefer to take the safer way.

Regarding where to move those 3/3 Imp Stings talents when dropping 2xT9 for 4xT10 ...

To add to Saltyone's suggestion, there is also another alternative : the rising 6/14/51 build. Just like the other 2 hunter specs, Focused Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft is actually a very powerful talent and scales very good with gear. However, for Surv especially, the price to obtain it is a little steep, so take this spec only when you don't have to provide replenishment yourself and you are absolutely sure that you won't have any mana problems (due to low ToTH, Multishot is more mana-expensive than Aimed).

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To add to Saltyone's suggestion, there is also another alternative : the rising 6/14/51 build. Just like the other 2 hunter specs, Focused Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft is actually a very powerful talent and scales very good with gear. However, for Surv especially, the price to obtain it is a little steep, so take this spec only when you don't have to provide replenishment yourself and you are absolutely sure that you won't have any mana problems (due to low ToTH, Multishot is more mana-expensive than Aimed).

That build isn't exactly rising, it has long been a contender for top Surv DPS, I remember all the way back in early Ulduar it being nodded at (with a Raptor pet).

But that spec is indeed sacrificing a lot. I view it as MM's little brother. It can't match the best MM specs, but it has exactly the same requirements. That is, low mobility requirement, perfect JoW uptime, and no target switching. And it utterly sucks for 10man where MM at least sometimes work (shorter fights means that RR might just be enough).

But of course, every man to himself. I just don't think the rather limited DPS gains are worth the losses in other areas.

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Something I have been trying to decide on is when it is best to use rapid fire and call of the wild. The easiest thing to do is hit it during heroism, but heroism is only a 30% boost to our pet and auto shots with rapid fire up. An alternative is hitting it in kill shot range, giving you 3 kill shots with a huge increase in ap.

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A good time to pop CDs it at the very beginning of the fight right as all of your trinkets (DBW and DV in my case) have their procs up. Waiting for hero is a great time also but doesn't necessarily give a great line up with the icds on trinkets which in my opinion are greater than hero. Also, if using DV/DBW as in my case their procs don't overlap often throughout the fight as they do in the beginning so you rarely get that perfect alignment but in the first few secs of a fight.

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A good time to pop CDs it at the very beginning of the fight right as all of your trinkets (DBW and DV in my case) have their procs up. Waiting for hero is a great time also but doesn't necessarily give a great line up with the icds on trinkets which in my opinion are greater than hero. Also, if using DV/DBW as in my case their procs don't overlap often throughout the fight as they do in the beginning so you rarely get that perfect alignment but in the first few secs of a fight.

Quite agree. I have DC/DV and Greatness, both of those obviously proc almost at once. Coupled with Rapid Fire and CotW the power is rather considerable. Also, fights like Putri tends to get dragged on long enough for the abilities to come off CD again (at an important time no less). And fights like Saurfang really points towards an early pop with ranged dealing with adds, and the fact that it is considerably better to get to his soft enrage with low blood power.

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I would also like to ask if Glyph of Aimed Shot is usable instead of Glyph of Explosive Shot. I personally think that if your cooldown on Aimed Shot is less it will imrpove your dps more than 4% crit in Exp Shot which is already specced to crit alot

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I would also like to ask if Glyph of Aimed Shot is usable instead of Glyph of Explosive Shot. I personally think that if your cooldown on Aimed Shot is less it will imrpove your dps more than 4% crit in Exp Shot which is already specced to crit alot

I'm not able to get aimed shot to spreadsheet competitively with other glyphs (steady, serpent, kill shot) even at very high ArPen levels. It's possible there may be some cases you could find where it could come out superior but I'm not sure what the conditions for it would be. I think the issue is that in any situation where aimed shot would gain enough ground from ArPen on gear the value of serpent goes up due to the saved GCDs for steady, and obviously steady and kill shot both gain a lot from ArPen. Aimed will also never be first priority on the shot list either which means it often will lose the value of a reduced cooldown. So although it might be better than explosive shot at some gear levels, there are other glyphs that will perform better than it.

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I'm not able to get aimed shot to spreadsheet competitively with other glyphs (steady, serpent, kill shot) even at very high ArPen levels. It's possible there may be some cases you could find where it could come out superior but I'm not sure what the conditions for it would be. I think the issue is that in any situation where aimed shot would gain enough ground from ArPen on gear the value of serpent goes up due to the saved GCDs for steady, and obviously steady and kill shot both gain a lot from ArPen. Aimed will also never be first priority on the shot list either which means it often will lose the value of a reduced cooldown. So although it might be better than explosive shot at some gear levels, there are other glyphs that will perform better than it.

Adding to what Rivkah has said, even for MM, either one of the CD-reducing glyphs (Glyph of CS and Glyph of AiS) will only show its performance on par with the other glyph choices only when the respective shot is put on top of the shot priority system. To compare with SV, there will be no situation or ArP level in which Aimed Shot will take priority over Explosive Shot (and Blizzard won't really allow it to happen either, I presume), and as such the CD reducing effect of Glyph of AiS won't be effective. It's probably going to allow you to slip one more Aimed Shot over a 6-min fight, a benefit that can be easily surpassed by another aforementioned glyph choices as SV.

This is similar to what happened with Resourcefulness talent, where taking 3/3 Resourcefulness generally turns out to be a minor DPS increase compared to going from 0/3 to 1/3 to 2/3 Resourcefulness, and as such the talent point is generally better to be utilized elsewhere (not always the case though). This is caused by the fact that reducing the CD of BA, which is usually lower in the priority system, won't necessarily allow you to shoot out many more BAs as expected once you go lower than a certain CD duration, due to cooldown clash with other higher-priority shots.

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I'm playing around with the 6/14/51 spec and don't mind it except for teh fact that it doesn't have Aimed shot. I tried playing with it and dont see any movement I can make to do this without totally messing up the spec it seems. Am I forced into using Multi Shot in this spec or has someone else found a way?

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I'm playing around with the 6/14/51 spec and don't mind it except for teh fact that it doesn't have Aimed shot. I tried playing with it and dont see any movement I can make to do this without totally messing up the spec it seems. Am I forced into using Multi Shot in this spec or has someone else found a way?

Well, as you can see, there is no other way to spec it and still be able to get Aimed Shot. The 51 pt in Survival is mandatory.

For the remaining 20 points, of course you can always try to shift around a little bit to get Aimed Shot, but no matter what it will almost always end up lower in theoretical standstill DPS than the spec with Focused Fire (and therefore, no Aimed Shot). In fact, Focused Fire is the main reason why 6/14/51 exists, and among all the 6 points invested into BM, the point invested in Focused Fire will be the one that will give you the largest DPS per point. On the other hand, you can't try get 2/2 Focused Fire either due to how 1/2 GfTT, Mortal Shots, and Careful Aim are all crucial talents.

Actually, losing Aimed Shot in 6/14/51 is not a really bad deal. It is a theoretical BiS DPS talent build designed on spreadsheet, and as such it is based on ideal standstill fight. With this kind of fights, the benefit of Aimed over Multi is diminished slightly, and also the role of Steady and Auto shots are magnified, and as such the benefit of Imp. Iaoth talent is also elevated. With proper positioning and excellent mastery of fight mechanics, you shouldn't have many difference between Aimed and Multi's usage on a given fight.

It's just however, when you reach the gear level where 6/14/51 gives you better DPS than the other cookie-cutter SV spec, 0/15/56, the MM spec 7/57/7 will almost surely give you a better theoretical DPS return if all you care is about theoretical highest DPS.

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I don't find that trap mastery was very beneficial, especially over the loss of aimed shot. I've been finding at higher and higher gear levels, survival has been trumping mm hunters, especially on high mobility fights, this often times comes down to the frequency of instant cast shots, and missing aimed shot would hender this.

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I don't find that trap mastery was very beneficial, especially over the loss of aimed shot. I've been finding at higher and higher gear levels, survival has been trumping mm hunters, especially on high mobility fights, this often times comes down to the frequency of instant cast shots, and missing aimed shot would hender this.

You don't specify the specs, so I have to assume you are responding to the 6/14/51 spec? In that case, Trap Mastery isn't taken over Aimed Shot, it is taken to get you to the next tier. The same holds true of most other Survival builds. If you have already taken Hawk Eye in tier 1, the question is not Aimed Shot vs Trap Mastery, it is Trap Mastery vs Hawk Eye. Trap Mastery should in the vast mojority of cases be the place to get your Hawk Eye points for Survival.

And yes, Survival is somewhat stronger on high mobility fights since a huge amount of DPS comes from instant sources (ES, Aimed, Serpent, Black Arrow), and it's pet is minimally better (and slightly more survivable) than the MM pet. I still spec to Survival on certain fights, just because I can't seem to match it as MM, or it has other advantages, like Trap Mastery on Saurfang and Dreamwalker, or mana efficiency on Dreamwalker).

But that brings me to a pet peeve I have about the 6/14/51 spec, it sacrifices pretty much everything that makes Survival strong for a pretty lousy DPS upgrade. To me it is just a poor man's MM, and in that case I would rather have the real thing, and keep Survival for what it is good for, soloing stuff, mana management and mobility.

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I've recently needed to re-spec to Survival at times in ICC10/25 for the benefits of replenishment. I was trying to use the spreadsheet to help create a second set of gear for that particular use when I noticed an anomaly that I'm having difficulty explaining. Perhaps this is a bug in the spreadsheet but I thought I'd post here regarding it while also posting in the spreadsheet thread.

The issue is that when I choose to NOT include Black Arrow in my shot selections on the spreadsheet I see a 4-600dps increase in DPS. This occurs regardless of how much ARP I have equipped; I suspected that my passive ~760 ARP might have been making Steady Shot a better choice than Black Arrow despite how remote that possibility seemed but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I continue to use Black Arrow in game as I do believe its a bug with the spreadsheet, however I thought I'd ask here just to cover any weird possibilities.

Has anyone else come across this anomaly?

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snail: I tried the same thing with Zeherah's online version of the spreadsheet. It showed a decrease of about 700 dps when I removed Black Arrow from my rotation, but also gave a warning: Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/services/update_stats.php on line 3407.

Sounds like there might be a bug in the code, division by zero certainly does not sound good. I cannot use Shandara's sheet at the moment (am at work), so cannot test with that one. I do not know how much of the code is same anymore, but I would think it is likely they both could have a bug in BA calculations.

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In the future if you find an issue like that on my site please send me feedback on the site so I can fix it. It was a side effect of a change I made the other day to add support for explosive trap, it just wasn't dealing properly with no LnL shot specified but it's fixed now. It definitely lowers the dps for me when I disable black arrow.

I'm not really sure why Shandara's sheet would be reporting the dps as higher without unless it's somehow giving credit for LnL procs from BA even when you don't have BA but it does sound like a bug.

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I ran the rotation tests in Shandara's spreadsheet and it produces the same calculation without creating any LnL procs. Unless someone in the spreadsheet thread (or this one) confirms its a bug I'll be running a couple of test runs on a target dummy this weekend.

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Regarding ArP and Trinkets and the advantage of Glyphing SS vs ES.

My ArP atm is ~28%, and when NES proc, it jumps to about 77% (if I recall correctly).

Would this be enough to really make a difference in glyphing SS vs ES? (and yes realizing that NES is on the 45 sec internal CD).

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It's not *just* having more arp that makes the glyph switch ideal. When you're at high levels of crit, you could probably crit-cap explosive shot with MT and a trinket proc.

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