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Guest Alcyon

A thread full of druids. (Formerly "The point of Feral Attack power?")

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Doing a quick math from those naked stats, that cat got 87*2 + 75 = 249 ap = 17.78dps from stats. So his base paw dps should be 97.5 / 1.10 - 17.78 = 70.86 dps

So using the gladiator mace his FAP + paw dps = 46.7 + 70.86 = 117.5 dps, which is a little above the 114.6 dps of the warrior 2h. But only by 2%, so it's almost the same indeed. Nice catch.

One thing I noticed about that mace is that it's melee dps is lower than the warrior 2h by an ammount that it's melee dps + fap dps = exactly the same as the warrior 2h. So a moonkin would hit for exactly the same using one or the other.

But indeed I agree with the OP, they could simply get rid of FAP and add weapon melee dps to forms. I suppose they only didn't do it because they were afraid of unexpected colateral effects such retroactive change could bring to lower levels.

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So... going by that, if they just made all the weapons drop back down to those stats, and change the FAP to all AP, they'd have their universal weapons.

Correct?

(Not suggesting they'd do that, nor that I want it, but just asking the question)

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Exactly. FAP would be converted to weapon DPS, not AP. But yea that's the idea.

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So... going by that, if they just made all the weapons drop back down to those stats, and change the FAP to all AP, they'd have their universal weapons.

Correct?

(Not suggesting they'd do that, nor that I want it, but just asking the question)

Weapon damage being added to Bloodthirst? I think some fury warriors might not let druids get that item. ;)

Not to mention hunters if it's a dagger/staff.

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Doing a quick math from those naked stats, that cat got 87*2 + 75 = 249 ap = 17.78dps from stats. So his base paw dps should be 97.5 / 1.10 - 17.78 = 70.86 dps

So using the gladiator mace his FAP + paw dps = 46.7 + 70.86 = 117.5 dps, which is a little above the 114.6 dps of the warrior 2h. But only by 2%, so it's almost the same indeed. Nice catch.

If cat really has 70 DPS at level 70, that's a nice (stealth) buff right there :)

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Just to add, I've seen at least one item that had "Feral Combat Skill" rating as a stat. This might be a feral form of +weaponskill, so another (although now minor, with the new interpretation of weaponskill) feral buff on items at least.

No further details at the moment tho.

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Just to add, I've seen at least one item that had "Feral Combat Skill" rating as a stat. This might be a feral form of +weaponskill, so another (although now minor, with the new interpretation of weaponskill) feral buff on items at least.

No further details at the moment tho.

That would be the Earthwarden I guess.

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As far as lore goes, how is a druid supposed to get his pawns around a health pot? I suppose there are other pots you could take, but that kind of takes away from out healing ability if we're just going to chug pots rather the popping out for a heal.

According to Sir David Attenborough, bears are dextrous enough to prise open shellfish to eat.

Otherwise I guess you just throw the whole thing into your mouth and bite it. Bears are too tough to care about swallowing glass shards, anyway :P

TMYK!

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I would suspect this is because feral attack power is a latecomer to the stat game (viz., "Hey, druid DPS needs a scaler here..."), so rather than "Hey, just add +DPS" which potentially could go off kilter on some items or result in some items being unintentionally overvaluated (see: q: why is it bad that barman's shanker, a blue from BRD, was superior to epics from MC?). So rather than open either a massive review of every weapon in game in a new paradigm OR a begging for the players to do so unfavorably in Live, it's vastly less labor intensive to just make some tailored weapons (feral AP weapons), as it's fair to presume they'll be balanced with feral scaling balance in mind.

This is basically it. The orignal game had everything needed to work from 1-60. When they started tackling endgame progression, this was just one of a number of scaling issues that had to be addressed.

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/Resurrect

Just read this on the US Beta Forums:

Did you know that a druid's white DPS in cat form stops going up innately at level 60?

That's right, you still have a base DPS of ~55 at level 66, and I asked another druid at 68 and his was also 55...this is the same as it is at level 60.

Your damage goes up as you gain stats with level, just like every other class...but your white DPS doesn't scale with level like it did 10-60.

(If you still don't get what I mean, I'm saying that the base DPS- stripped of all attack power- is still the same, it's only your stats that go up, and they go up the exact same way everyone else's does)

Just letting you all know, as I'm seeing alot of druids say we "scale with level but don't scale with gear".

Admittedly, as you level you gain new ranks, but the scaling of Shred (feral talens of course) right now is about on par with a rogue w/Imp. Backstab, Opportunity, and Lethality. In fact, it's better as our "main hand" DPS is higher, but the rogue doesn't have to sacrifice energy (mangle) to keep his #'s up, and our white damage overall is less due to lack of dual weild.

But just thought I'd dispel a druid myth for you all =)

So he says that Cat DPS minus AP and talents stays at 55 DPS which is not what we calculated in this thread. I also talked to two Druids (70 and 67) and asked them about their DPS in Cat and substracted their AP from it and divided by 1.1 (due to Natural Weapons) and the base DPS of the level 70 was ~68 DPS.

So my question to those who can check it for themselves: Is the above poster only posting BS or am I wrong with my calculations?

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The naked cat posted earlier had 474 attack power. Thats 33.857 additional DPS. The DPS of the cat, minus NW is 97.5/1.1 = 88.63. Subtracting the DPS from AP give us 88.63 - 33.857 = 54.77 DPS base.

Doing the same calculations with my druid on live I get a base paw DPS of 54.8. There seems to be no change is cat base DPS from 60-70, unless I did some calculations wrong.

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The naked cat posted earlier had 474 attack power. Thats 33.857 additional DPS. The DPS of the cat, minus NW is 97.5/1.1 = 88.63. Subtracting the DPS from AP give us 88.63 - 33.857 = 54.77 DPS base.

Doing the same calculations with my druid on live I get a base paw DPS of 54.8. There seems to be no change is cat base DPS from 60-70, unless I did some calculations wrong.

Ah well, what a shame. Since there are loads of weapons with +FAP it is no big deal the base paw DPS does not scale, but there is another thing that's bothering me:

Paw DPS + FAP DPS does not equal the original DPS of the Weapon it emulates. Going back to the Calculation done here with the Gladiator Mace, it falls 10% DPS short (114.6 DPS vs 46.7 FAP DPS +55 Paw DPS = 114.6 DPS vs 101.7 DPS), so Natural Weapons has to compensate for that.

So basically we look at something like this for Feral:

NW - Required to be on par, it is NOT a bonus.

HotW (+Sta) - Required to be on par with Bear due to Druid PvP gear having less Stamina than other classes. It is NOT a bonus.

Exactly where do we see the Druid buffs in mechanics and itemization if Blizz is designing items around talents to begin with?

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Feral AP gives a static DPS increase, just like a weapon would. There are advantages in the feral weapon system, as well - you need very little +hit on your gear. (Was it 9% like hunters? Compared to the 24% that DW classes need, that's nothing.)

Responding to a somewhat aged post, but still...

Shouldn't having a higher cap for +hit be considered a good thing? You don't really need a certain level of hit (speaking as a rogue, at least), but being able to get significant benefit from the stat up to 24% seems to be an advantage in itemization as opposed to being capped significantly lower. I gear myself primarily as a PvP rogue, so hit isn't really high on my list, and I've still got +15% hit. It just seems to me that if I only gained benefit up to +9%, my gear choices would, overall, be worse than they are now; as such, it seems to me that being able to gain benefit from 24% of hit is superior to only being able to gain benefit for 9%.

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Responding to a somewhat aged post, but still...

Shouldn't having a higher cap for +hit be considered a good thing? You don't really need a certain level of hit (speaking as a rogue, at least), but being able to get significant benefit from the stat up to 24% seems to be an advantage in itemization as opposed to being capped significantly lower. I gear myself primarily as a PvP rogue, so hit isn't really high on my list, and I've still got +15% hit. It just seems to me that if I only gained benefit up to +9%, my gear choices would, overall, be worse than they are now; as such, it seems to me that being able to gain benefit from 24% of hit is superior to only being able to gain benefit for 9%.

Well +to hit still takes up part of an items value. You would have to look at its cost and compare the DPS gains to the gains from straight AP. I can tell you with certainty though that dual wield is still an advantage over a single weapon as far as white dmg scaling.

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if the FAP on some items was 'normal' AP those items would be bizarly overpowered in the hands of hunters (staffs) or rogues/warriors (all those instants with that much AP). rather than having to balance for that they made a seperate stat.

edit: my argument would have made more sense had i been able to link a staff with feral AP but can't find one.

/chews on foot

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I think TBC cruids (in cat form) are the highest yellow DPS melee attacker currently in the common scenarios. I might be wrong and won't go into providing math here but I'm fairly convinced that's the case. A significant portion of a druid's yellow damage attacks do not factor in weapon damage, however, so it sort of makes sense that druid weapons should come with attack power rather than direct damage (where rogues use slice'n'dice which scales with weapon damage druids use rip which is fully attack power based).

Druid white damage, however, is largely the equivalent of someone wielding a twohander - generally far inferior to dual wielding.

I think feral attack power plays nicely to druid strengths and as such is a mechanic which has a proper place in gameplay. I think it's also justified that attack power does not fully compensate for the DPS difference from twohander to onehander as attack power does have slightly more utility than weapon damage (it scales with unleashed fury and affects finishers).

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So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

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hybrid gear tends to be weaker than 'pure class' gear so no major surprise there, tbh.

as far as I've read, feral druids will compete very nicely in dps with rogues and fury wars. However, there will ALWAYS be a penalty for the fact that you can pop out of form and heal.

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Math on manglebuffed feral scaling is pretty clear, and it certainly looks equal to the scaling factor all other melee dps gets. So unless feral gets shafted via itemisation, and the multiple choise set system would make that unlikely, we dont have anything much to worry about. Well.. windfury possibly? But it looks like they are intending to give us that.

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So am I the only one bothered by the fact that +FAP weapons are 10% less effective by design compared to other melee weapons?

And to the above poster: Even IF (and that is a big IF) Druids can produce the highest yellow numbers currently, they won't do so for long. Druid scaling was always good upfront but lagged behind when everyone got geared (let's hope it changes in TBC; Mangle is a good start).

Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

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I also don't know where you're getting the "10% less effective by design" The Dreanic Wildstaff for example, has a good 22% higher item value (in exchange for having a lower DPS) AND THEN has the 423 FAP. Every stat on it benefits Feral DPS. Hardly 10% less effective.

A Feral Druid relies on his forms to do damage

A Balance Druid relies on his spells to do damage

A Resto Druid relies on other people to do damage :D

For all druids, the base DPS of our weapon is there as a backup when we run out of mana, in exchange for lowering the effect of the weapon itself we (and all casters) get more stats on it than would normally be allowed, making our primary methods that much more effective. Blizzard caps how low the weapon can get for balance reasons (if Soulseeker, iLevel 89 off Kelthuzad, had 0 DPS instead of 63.7 it could have an extra +170 spell damage on it, hardly balanced)

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Frankly I don't see any problem with feral yellow damage scaling, could you explain what the problem is?

My bad, it looks as if a Mangled Shred could actually outscale the Rogue's backstab in raids, so I am mistaken on that part (I assumed otherwise because it does in live and I got the white damage of Rogues confused in here because they do get more DPS per 1 AP with SnD and Dual Wield). :)

So yes indeed, a Druid might get the bigger yellow damage hits/crits. (And now the part addressing Boevis' post) But that is only assuming Druid Weapons will scale as much as the Rogues weapon, for example if a Rogue gets a Dagger with 100 DPS, 20 Str and 20 Agi, a Druid should also be able to get a Mace with 55 DPS and 630 Feral AP (that's +45 DPS for a total of 100 DPS), 20 Str and 20 Agi. However currently this is not the case unless you have Naturalist/Natural Weapons specced (which you will probably do if you are not full balance, but it's just the point that this system is stupid).

Case in point, check out the Gladiator maces:

Warrior version

Druid version

Note that all stats but Weapon DPS and +FAP are identical. The itemlevel is the same as well, so you'd expect them to give both classes the same DPS increase, right? Unfortunately, that is not true:

Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.

To sum it up, a Warrior gains 114.6 DPS and a Cat will gain 101.7 DPS, which means a Druid gains roughly 11% less DPS from the weapon compared to a Warrior. Now, it is not a coincidence NW increases your DPS by 10%, is it? With NS, the Druid gets 112 DPS from the weapon which is close enough to the base DPS of the Warrior mace.

That is what I meant with Druid weapons being 10% less effective compared to other melee weapons. Why is Blizzard requiring a talent so that items actually work at 100% effictivity? Granted, being forced to spec Naturalist in Beta is no big deal due to the HT synergy, however it still boggles my mind items are designed with such talents in mind. I always considered talents to be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the cake itself (if you get the horrible analogy :P).

It's especially bad if you compare the PvP sets: Druids gain the lowest Stamina from all classes (177), most classes gain 216 Stamina expect for Warriors, Priests and Warlocks who gain slightly more. The difference between the Druid Sta value on the other classes is roughly 20%. And, you guessed it, HotW increases your HP in bear by 20%. What is with that? I don't see Warlocks having a penalty built-in in their PvP set because they can increase their Stamina by 15% via a talent. Can someone explain me the reasoning of this? ._.

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Well +to hit still takes up part of an items value. You would have to look at its cost and compare the DPS gains to the gains from straight AP. I can tell you with certainty though that dual wield is still an advantage over a single weapon as far as white dmg scaling.

I think you're missing the point.

The poster I responded to was listing less useful points of hit to be an advantage for a druid; I'm arguing that this really isn't the case, as it places an additional limitation on the dps you can get from gear. Yes, you can fundamentally convert the value of hit to AP. Then you multiply that by how many points of hit are useful to you, and you get a certain amount of "virtual AP" that is possible from hit gear. This pool is bigger for a dual wielder, so it imposes less limitation on how one can gain benefit from gear.

It just seems to me that the meme of "single weapons needing less hit is good" is incorrect, and the truth of the matter is "dual wielding has more potential gain from hit gear which is good".

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