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Guest Alcyon

A thread full of druids. (Formerly "The point of Feral Attack power?")

156 posts in this topic

My bad, it looks as if a Mangled Shred could actually outscale the Rogue's backstab in raids, so I am mistaken on that part (I assumed otherwise because it does in live and I got the white damage of Rogues confused in here because they do get more DPS per 1 AP with SnD and Dual Wield). :)

So yes indeed, a Druid might get the bigger yellow damage hits/crits. (And now the part addressing Boevis' post) But that is only assuming Druid Weapons will scale as much as the Rogues weapon, for example if a Rogue gets a Dagger with 100 DPS, 20 Str and 20 Agi, a Druid should also be able to get a Mace with 55 DPS and 630 Feral AP (that's +45 DPS for a total of 100 DPS), 20 Str and 20 Agi. However currently this is not the case unless you have Naturalist/Natural Weapons specced (which you will probably do if you are not full balance, but it's just the point that this system is stupid).

Case in point, check out the Gladiator maces:

Warrior version

Druid version

Note that all stats but Weapon DPS and +FAP are identical. The itemlevel is the same as well, so you'd expect them to give both classes the same DPS increase, right? Unfortunately, that is not true:

Warrior version gives you 114.6 DPS. Druid version gives you 67.8 DPS +654 FAP (=46.7 DPS) for a total of 114.5 DPS. Close enough, eh? But that is only if a Moonkin swings the mace because he uses both AP and actual weapon DPS. Cats, however, do not have an innate paw DPS of 67.8, they only got 55 DPS. 55 DPS + 46.7 DPS is 101.7.

To sum it up, a Warrior gains 114.6 DPS and a Cat will gain 101.7 DPS, which means a Druid gains roughly 11% less DPS from the weapon compared to a Warrior. Now, it is not a coincidence NW increases your DPS by 10%, is it? With NS, the Druid gets 112 DPS from the weapon which is close enough to the base DPS of the Warrior mace.

That is what I meant with Druid weapons being 10% less effective compared to other melee weapons. Why is Blizzard requiring a talent so that items actually work at 100% effictivity? Granted, being forced to spec Naturalist in Beta is no big deal due to the HT synergy, however it still boggles my mind items are designed with such talents in mind. I always considered talents to be the icing on the cake, not the basis of the cake itself (if you get the horrible analogy :P).

It's especially bad if you compare the PvP sets: Druids gain the lowest Stamina from all classes (177), most classes gain 216 Stamina expect for Warriors, Priests and Warlocks who gain slightly more. The difference between the Druid Sta value on the other classes is roughly 20%. And, you guessed it, HotW increases your HP in bear by 20%. What is with that? I don't see Warlocks having a penalty built-in in their PvP set because they can increase their Stamina by 15% via a talent. Can someone explain me the reasoning of this? ._.

You can heal? And Dps? While I'm not a fan of the usual, shut up you're a priest/mage/rogue/warrior all at once, which is vastly exxagerated, the fact is you can still heal(not efficiently) when speced feral and doing max dps, or you can switch gear and dps pretty awfully but heal very decently. The fact you can do this in pretty much 1secs(switching form+gear with an addon) forces blizzard to give druids less bonuses. It's nothing new really.

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You can heal? And Dps? While I'm not a fan of the usual, shut up you're a priest/mage/rogue/warrior all at once, which is vastly exxagerated, the fact is you can still heal(not efficiently) when speced feral and doing max dps, or you can switch gear and dps pretty awfully but heal very decently. The fact you can do this in pretty much 1secs(switching form+gear with an addon) forces blizzard to give druids less bonuses. It's nothing new really.

No, just no.

"Max dps", as you put it, is relative. Max Cat DPS does definitely not equal Rogue DPS which is totally fine because Druids have utility and heals to bring to the table. So how often do you want to punish Cats for being able to heal?

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They should always be "moderated" because of this.

A class with 3 effective roles should be content being about 60-70% in every single role. 3 roles with decreased effectiveness. Checks and balances, it's how it works.

A pure healer is 100% the most effective in this, as is a prot tank, or a combat dagger rogue etc. Whatever. Their checks are that they cannot do anything else.

You chose a hybrid. Cat dps should never come close to a rogue/mage/warlock/hunter imo, while bear tanking should never come close to prot warriors etc. I won't use healing because that's kinda a weird argument and with the different heals, types, and abilities it's hard to label heal classes by effectiveness.

As per topic, a +feral attack power simply opens and simultaneously closes alot of doors. The End of Dreams is indicative of what happens with this stat, as so many druids will swear it's THEIR item merely because of that stat. That conversation on loot always made me laugh because I often wondered what they would have done in EQ when things like Bracers of Earthen Energy dropped: Melee haste, spell haste, and a bard song instrument modifier!

I'm not sure why this causes so much hubbub. Itemization is the best it's ever been for off-specs considering the TBC loot system, and quested items such as the qiraji weapons which allow for classes to get interesting items.

I certainly don't want a repeat of AQ and the multitude of leather loot we got and didn't want.

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They should always be "moderated" because of this.

A class with 3 effective roles should be content being about 60-70% in every single role. 3 roles with decreased effectiveness. Checks and balances, it's how it works.

A pure healer is 100% the most effective in this, as is a prot tank, or a combat dagger rogue etc. Whatever. Their checks are that they cannot do anything else.

You chose a hybrid. Cat dps should never come close to a rogue/mage/warlock/hunter imo, while bear tanking should never come close to prot warriors etc.

OK. You do realize that from all the classes you listed, only 4 are no hybrids? Don't try to tell me that Priests or Warriors are specialist classes. They are as much as hybrid as a Paladin, Druid or Shaman. That is why I am not going to buy into this "a pure healer is 100%" effective. What is a pure healer? All classes that can heal got atleast a DPS tree, and/or a tanking tree. Why should a Priest do less DPS than a Fury Warrior? Why should a Priest heal better than a Druid? I could go on, but I think you get where I am going.

I won't use healing because that's kinda a weird argument and with the different heals, types, and abilities it's hard to label heal classes by effectiveness.

Well, you can't just single out one aspect because it doesn't fit the argument. Healing is as much as a part of Hybrids as their other trees. What makes healing so special that it can be on par with other healers, but being competitive in tanking and DPSing is considered a crime?

I already admitted Druids should not be better than Rogues at DPSing (because that's all Rogues can do) or Prot Warriors at tanking, but they sure should be damn close. Like the Warrior, Druids have to specialize in their chosen role, even more so in TBC. So what does a Bear specced Druid have what a Warrior doesn't have? Mana to cast 5 Healing Touches before going OOM? Both Warriors and Druids bring utility to the raid (BS, better Demo, +HP shout, Sunder etc vs MotW, CR, Innervate, LotP etc) and can only do one role well at any given time. A Bear can't shoot lasers off his butt and heal with his thoughts alone; if he wants to do either, he has to shift out, at which time he does not tank. Like I said, Bears should get pretty damn close to Warriors unless you can tell me that being able to heal does help on bosses that are unstunnable.

The only thing I agree 100% with is that Druids should never outDPS Rogues because as I said before, they just don't have the utility and only can do one thing.

As per topic, a +feral attack power simply opens and simultaneously closes alot of doors. The End of Dreams is indicative of what happens with this stat, as so many druids will swear it's THEIR item merely because of that stat. That conversation on loot always made me laugh because I often wondered what they would have done in EQ when things like Bracers of Earthen Energy dropped: Melee haste, spell haste, and a bard song instrument modifier!

That was because there are a whopping 3 +FAP weapons in live now. I can guarantee you that won't happen anymore in TBC (to this extent) because +FAP weapons are itemized and plenty.

I'm not sure why this causes so much hubbub. Itemization is the best it's ever been for off-specs considering the TBC loot system, and quested items such as the qiraji weapons which allow for classes to get interesting items.

I certainly don't want a repeat of AQ and the multitude of leather loot we got and didn't want.

That's what tokens are there for. ;)

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Priests are only a hybrid of two types, warriors the same, rogues/hunters/warlocks/mages have no hybridization.

Priests can be dps or healers. For this, I'd say they are 100% effective at healing, 60% at dps. Warriors can tank or dps, 100% and well...100%, because warriors are just in an unusual spot right now.

Druids on the other hand are in a very unique position that they get three areas of specialization and for the most part, do not get barred from other areas.

Healing is harder to qualify because of how you "rate" healing. As long as your tank/caster/dps survives, you've done your job, whereas you can test dps by merely watching a DM. It's not quite so easy for healing.

Anyways, semi off-topic, but I was confused as to what this thread was about. Feral attack power beign bad, or good?

As it is, druids shouldn't expect to be better than 70% in any one area, even when appropriately spec'd for it. You can get better in those areas the day a warrior can throw on cloth healing gear and swiftmend himself to full hps.

I like the idea of intensely specific itemized sets, and that appears to be what we are getting. But feral attack power on regular items, well...I didn't like that idea in EQ and I don't like it now.

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Priests are only a hybrid of two types, warriors the same, rogues/hunters/warlocks/mages have no hybridization.

Priests can be dps or healers. For this, I'd say they are 100% effective at healing, 60% at dps. Warriors can tank or dps, 100% and well...100%, because warriors are just in an unusual spot right now.

I didn't ask how you'd rate each individual role in live. I merely provoked thinking about why a Priest heals better than he DPSes, or why a Warrior can do his both roles so well. And why a Priest can't DPS at 100% if specced so, and heal at 100% if specced so etc.

Arguing that Druids can't reach 100% efficiency for what they spec for because it's how it is now is no real reason.

Druids on the other hand are in a very unique position that they get three areas of specialization and for the most part, do not get barred from other areas.

No. They pick one role for a fight, and excel at that. The roles are as mutually exclusive as a Prot Warrior tanking and DPSing in one fight and a Priest DPSing and Healing in one fight. You can't change gear in combat, so you either equip your good feral gear and have shitty mana or equip your resto gear and have shitty DPS. Why don't people get that a Druid can only do one role well at one time, just like everyone else (that means if I want to MT something, I will suck at healing when my tanked add dies - I can merely do some Feral DPS. But so can a Prot Warrior after his add died.)?

Healing is harder to qualify because of how you "rate" healing. As long as your tank/caster/dps survives, you've done your job, whereas you can test dps by merely watching a DM. It's not quite so easy for healing.

Druids are being taken to raids because they heal so well. I have never ever read or heard someone saying "Hey, let's sub all the Druids out for fight X, we need real healers", but stuff "Hey, Druid, leave Bear/Cat, and heal" is more common. Seriously, is that fair?

As it is, druids shouldn't expect to be better than 70% in any one area, even when appropriately spec'd for it. You can get better in those areas the day a warrior can throw on cloth healing gear and swiftmend himself to full hps.

Because Swiftmend is accessible to Feral Druids, right? Please let's not stoop down to the level of "Druids can main tank, and main heal at the same time while MF spamming mobs into oblivion". Druids are special in that they are role shifters. Being in forms locks out your other "hybrid traits". If you are in Bear, you can't heal nor do ranged DPS. If you are in Cat you can't tank nor heal nor do ranged DPS. The only form that has any sense of hybridity is caster form because you can access both ranged DPS and heals at once.

I like the idea of intensely specific itemized sets, and that appears to be what we are getting. But feral attack power on regular items, well...I didn't like that idea in EQ and I don't like it now.

Well, got a better idea then? It is not like every piece of equipment has FAP, it's just that it will be more in TBC so I don't get why it bothers you.

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You're going really really far into reading what isn't there in my post.

Druids are a hybrid. They have more options and more versatility available to them than just about any other class. The *true* hybrids of WoW are considered paladins/shamans/druids. Priests and warriors to a fairly lesser extent simply because they have another tree that runs concurrent to their relatively clear role in raid environments.

Hybrids will always be held to the standard that if you want to have options available to you, be wary of the fact that you won't be as effective as that spec's *pure* counterpart.

As for what to do, I would highly support a token system for weapons even. The problem I see with FAP is that it will just be hap-hazardly slapped onto weapons at random, which creates alot of controversy. Even in the best guilds items like ones I've mentioned create a bit of confusion when they drop, considering they have stats that affect a wide variety of classes, yet one stat that affects but one.

It's just not a stat I like, because it's very very specific, on non specific items. That's just my opinion. I'm very much for specialized sets and weapons, but pre-determined class specific items.

I guess what I don't want to see is caster items losing some ilvl points to be allocated to FAP, when it's probably much more worthwhile to just throw a weapon like the qiraji mace or the green dragon mace into your hands.

Basically, I don't see the point of it. You can change weapons in combat, so make some really specific weapons that say druid only, otherwise I just feel it's a waste.

Not sure if that makes sense, but items that you have to think about to loot just makes me cringe, because eventually, a bad or unsavory decision is usually made.

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You're going really really far into reading what isn't there in my post.

Druids are a hybrid. They have more options and more versatility available to them than just about any other class. The *true* hybrids of WoW are considered paladins/shamans/druids. Priests and warriors to a fairly lesser extent simply because they have another tree that runs concurrent to their relatively clear role in raid environments.

Hybrids will always be held to the standard that if you want to have options available to you, be wary of the fact that you won't be as effective as that spec's *pure* counterpart.

Hybrids are defined as classes that can fill more than one role. Noone says you have to be able to fill atleast 3 roles before being called a hybrid.

You also don't consider that a hybrid cannot physically fulfill all 3+ roles at once which is my main argument. But let's drop this, this is not going anywhere. :(

As for what to do, I would highly support a token system for weapons even. The problem I see with FAP is that it will just be hap-hazardly slapped onto weapons at random, which creates alot of controversy. Even in the best guilds items like ones I've mentioned create a bit of confusion when they drop, considering they have stats that affect a wide variety of classes, yet one stat that affects but one.

It's just not a stat I like, because it's very very specific, on non specific items. That's just my opinion. I'm very much for specialized sets and weapons, but pre-determined class specific items.

I guess what I don't want to see is caster items losing some ilvl points to be allocated to FAP, when it's probably much more worthwhile to just throw a weapon like the qiraji mace or the green dragon mace into your hands.

Basically, I don't see the point of it. You can change weapons in combat, so make some really specific weapons that say druid only, otherwise I just feel it's a waste.

Not sure if that makes sense, but items that you have to think about to loot just makes me cringe, because eventually, a bad or unsavory decision is usually made.

FAP doesn't cost item budget; it takes it's item budget via decreasing Weapon DPS which is casters couldn't care less about (see EoD). So a 1h mace that should have had 100 DPS going by it's Ilvl now has 70 DPS and 30 DPS worth of +FAP added on it. If the Weapon has added magical stats on it, it still stays attractive to casters because it doesn't matter to a Priest if the DPS of the Weapon is 100 or 10.

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While it is a very old subject:

You also don't consider that a hybrid cannot physically fulfill all 3+ roles at once which is my main argument. But let's drop this, this is not going anywhere.

What you are missing is that when combat drops, you can swap gear and do some dps, or heal, or tank. You lose a bit of oomph if not spec'd appropriately, but you can do it.

Rogues and the like are unable to do this and THAT is the defining characteristic. There is no reason for a pure class to remain pure, or exist when they know they can do the same as another class AND have the option of other roles.

I hope I'm never around to see the day a druid is doing rogue dps, then swapping out of cat form to rejuve then swapping back.

It's all opinion, but I believe an opinion someone interested in balance shares. And balance as in class balance, not the druid tree! Teehee.

The dps being allocated to FAP takes care of that issue, I admit I missed that. But it doesn't take care of the second issue, which is it creates a good bit of "What's best for who" when you encounter it.

As an example, The End of Dreams is such a silly item to me. Considering you can swap weapons in combat why would you simply not go for a weapon with FAP, str/sta? They exist; that item seems unnecessary itemized like it is, and I'm not interesting in seeing more of them. I think someone said it is a pretty good paladin weapon, and afaik, that class does want weapon dps.

Blargh, I hate specific stats on non-specific weapons. As a hunter and a priest, I'd be just as disappointed to see an uber melee dagger with +mana regen and +heal. Didn't one of those exist before being fixed? Fang of the Mystics, or perhaps something in Naxx?

Same thing to me, and I feel it shouldn't be breached.

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This thread confuses me.

Where does the 70% effectiveness number come from? Are you sure that druids shouldn't be 83.45% as effective? Why not 33.33 repeating of course? If Druids are only 70% effective in groups no matter which role they choose why would you bring one when there are 8 classes supposedly 30% better? And lastly what does Feral attack power have to do with druids being 70% effective as any other class filling the role they are filling?

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This thread confuses me.

Where does the 70% effectiveness number come from? Are you sure that druids shouldn't be 83.45% as effective? Why not 33.33 repeating of course? If Druids are only 70% effective in groups no matter which role they choose why would you bring one when there are 8 classes supposedly 30% better? And lastly what does Feral attack power have to do with druids being 70% effective as any other class filling the role they are filling?

That's pretty hostile coming into a thread. -.-

70% was just a random opinionated number I pulled from nowhere, simmer down.

The comment was made in response to someone else's comment about why druids couldn't match their pure class counterparts when spec'd appropriately. The wrong thread to be sure but I am a sucker for such comments. Viva la character flaws. ><

Edit: My spelling sucks.

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It's an old argument and not resolvable. People who argue that hybrids should be able to function at full or near effectiveness will point to Priests and Warriors as examples. Those who argue they should not be 100% effective at any of their roles will argue until they are blue in the face that Warriors and Priests are not hybrids or that Warriors are the exception that proves the rule (although the argument that you can't measure healing effectiveness so its invalid is a new layer of obfuscation I'd not heard before). It's all Cheshire Cat arguments on both sides - define the terms however you like to prove your point.

Regardless, its kind of a moot question until we see the results of Blizzard's class changes and itemization in TBC.

What was the OP's question again?

Edit: The silliness of The End of Dreams to me has always been that its a Balance/Feral mace. I mean, c'mon, who is ever Balance/Feral? Balance/Resto, or Feral/Resto sure. I prefer the one-weapon/one-role approach myself but if I was going to design a hybrid weapon why would I make it pewpew/meowr?

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Yeah, let's not get the thread locked over that. :)

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It's an old argument and not resolvable. People who argue that hybrids should be able to function at full or near effectiveness will point to Priests and Warriors as examples. Those who argue they should not be 100% effective at any of their roles will argue until they are blue in the face that Warriors and Priests are not hybrids or that Warriors are the exception that proves the rule (although the argument that you can't measure healing effectiveness so its invalid is a new layer of obfuscation I'd not heard before). It's all Cheshire Cat arguments on both sides - define the terms however you like to prove your point.

Regardless, its kind of a moot question until we see the results of Blizzard's class changes and itemization in TBC.

I didn't say it was invalid; I said it's hard to say which class is the *best* at healing or 100% effective because you don't measure healing like you do dps. Druids/paladins/shamans/priests are all awesome healers in their own rights. If we're measuring pure healing output, any class can spam spells to top the charts. Effectiveness has more to do with the skill of the player than spec or class. The only thing to measure I think would probably be longevity and it's possible priests win that.

Other than that I don't think you can declare a hands down winner. That's just personal opinion from working with other healing classes. Priests will generally top the effectiveness charts because of their assignments, while paladins and druids are often spot healing or backing up priests.

I think priests *are* the best healers, but I don't think you can slap down say, a DM and say: There's your proof, while it's infinitely more noticable to do this with dps classes. That was my point, nothing more, nothing less. But then the point that paladins and druids are usually spot healing could be the proof I am talking about but who knows. :P

ANYWAYS~

That aside, nothing is set in stone yet but some of our druids are already talking about items in TBC so I don't think itemization will be a giant problem, FAP or not. But cross that bridge when we come to it I guess :P

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Edit: The silliness of The End of Dreams to me has always been that its a Balance/Feral mace. I mean, c'mon, who is ever Balance/Feral? Balance/Resto, or Feral/Resto sure. I prefer the one-weapon/one-role approach myself but if I was going to design a hybrid weapon why would I make it pewpew/meowr?

See, I agree. Since you can change weapons in combat, why not go all the way? Why mix mana regen and that? /boggle

That's just my personal opinions. How many TBC items have FAP anyways?

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I think the reason Druids should be allowed to approach (but not equal directly) 100% of another role is because as they approach that role, their ability to do other roles diminishes greatly.

The closer a druid comes to fulfilling his potential in one role, via talents and gear, the further away they move in being able to fill another (generally).

I really don't like having to have 4 top end gear sets just to be ~85% of my chosen primary role and ~50% or less of my other secondary and tertiary roles.

But that's not Blizzard's fault, entirely, the loot situation.

[edit] To the above - I noticed 14 FAP, 39 FAP, etc. Surely they wouldn't give us a simple 1 dps upgrade on a weapon! lol. So maybe this means there will be some gear that shows up with it, or set bonuses, or something?

[edit] 2nd edit!

in EQ when things like Bracers of Earthen Energy dropped: Melee haste, spell haste, and a bard song instrument modifier!

You gave it to the bards, because we're all primadonnas and need something to keep us playing mana song, Ro's, and to keep us from training the raid with FM :(

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Each of those entries is one weapon? Or one armor piece? (Are there armor pieces with FAP?)

That looks to be like alot of itemization for that stat. I guess we'll see what the finished product looks like ><

Each entry is a unique amount. I'll reserve comment on my confusion about the methodology, but if you click each one, for example the +175 entry, the weapons sporting that aura will be listed below the spell data.

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Just did a quick Thott search. I think the lowest +FAP weapon in TBC is actually +160AP so I don't know why all those >+100 AP weapons are listed.

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Just did a quick Thott search. I think the lowest +FAP weapon in TBC is actually +160AP so I don't know why all those >+100 AP weapons are listed.

Bunch of early 60s (and probably higher) BOE greens (staffs so far that I've seen) that now come with +FAP - Thott isn't very good at reporting such random drops if they're just generic greens but they definitely do exist, will dig out a screen shot if anyone's really interested for whatever reason.

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Druids aren't hybrids, they are role shifters. More than any class in the game thier abilities are defined by their talents. A feral druid cannot just switch and become a good healer, he does not have the talent points. A druid that is not 41 feral cannot do viable melee DPS, mangle is completely required. In fact to come anywhere near a rogue in DPS a feral druid has to spend 55 of his talent points in damage related talents and has a whole 6 talent points to spend in healing. In order to do anywhere near a rogue's DPS a druid has to wear gear that leaves him with roughly 3000 mana and quite possibly 0 +heal. They are not at all a hybrid like a shaman or a paladin. They choose a role for a fight and they stick with that one role and are useless for anything else.

In addition they do not get any of the utility of the classes they mimic. They don't get fade like a priest, they don't get shield, they don't get a real group heal, they don't get a fast heal like a priest, they don't get shield block, shield wall, last stand, shield bash etc like a warrior, they don't get vanish, kick, poisons, evasion, as many stuns etc as a rogue. In order to be anywhere near viable as a role shifter they have to be close to their parent class in what they do, I'd say at minimum 80% and probably closer to 90% of it when all out specced and geared for it. While we should never be as good as the parent we have to be close enough that we are worth bringing on a raid and the figure thrown out here of 67% would have all druids spending all of their time solo.

Also what the real concern listed here is all about is how druids scale with gear. If a druid is meant to do 80% of a rogue's DPS then they should do 80% of a rogue's DPS in green gear and they should do 80% of a rogues DPS in T6 gear. They shouldn't be losing ground because of itemization and scaling. Thats what the druids in this thread are talking about.

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Just did a quick Thott search. I think the lowest +FAP weapon in TBC is actually +160AP so I don't know why all those >+100 AP weapons are listed.

I've seen random green staves of the Beast with a lot less than 160AP

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