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Guest Aliocha

ICC - The Lich King (normal)

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Looked like our guild was going to knock out our first 25 man kill and our tanks got 1 shot. It wasnt the enrage timer, but Lich King suddenly did absurd damage. Looking at the logs it appears he got some debuff called "Harvested Soul". I am looking everything I can to find some info about it, but none of the tooltips I can find say anything about giving him a damage increase.

Is that what made him do so much damage? Also, what would be the source of that buff? Someone dieing to soul harvest before making it into frost mourne or is it from messing up in the frost mourne area?

Yes, if he kills someone with Harvest Soul or they fail in the Frostmourne room he will gain a 200% damage enrage that will one-shot your tanks. It doesn't last that long, so it should be possible to survive with some cooldowns, though odds are you won't have to time to prepare for it.

After last night's attempts I wonder if the gib factor of Soul Reaper's initial tick + melee in the same instant is not really a bug at all, or even a mechanical flaw in the sense that parry gib was in the past. It happened so incredibly often (nearly every Reaper) that we had to adjust our strategy so that it wouldn't be a problem. The main issue with that theory is that there is plenty of warning for the Soul Reaper debuff, but you must rely on a timer if you want to cooldown preemptively. If this wasn't the intent, I'd be surprised if we didn't see a nerf to the initial application damage of Soul Reaper soon.

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From our tries I assume this is when the designated Harvest Soul target dies before being sucked into Frostmourne.

This may be the related buff, though I'm not sure about the stacks: Harvest Soul.

It may also happen if the player dies within Frostmourne, but we haven't had this happen in our tries as far as I can remember.

//Edit

Should've checked if there was a new page...

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You're making things way harder for your healers and over-complicating the fight by doing this. Healers will be 100% more effective when they've had time to really ramp up and adjust to the target they're healing, and you don't let them do that by spreading out massive damage on two targets at a really dangerous time.

We killed him on 25 man, and in none of the attempts our tanks died. We have a protection paladin in phase 2 on the boss. Myself warrior tank im dealing with the remaining raging spirits, and we only cooldown the first soul reaper.

With proper healers this is not a issue at all. Paladin healers are especially strong in this regard, beacon heal both tanks and if the still die you might want to reconsider your paladins. Only time we had a tank die was when someone died inside the frostmoure room. But that happened at 14% and I managed to get LK fine till 10%.

And to the over complicating things, healers know exactly when to ramp up already since the soul reaper is perfectly timeable.

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We run into a problem (bug?) with Soul Reaper.

Our guild uses 2 warrior tanks for Arthas and when the boss debuffs the MT with Soul Reaper, the second tank spots Arthas until Soul Reaper goes off after 5 seconds, then the main tank spots back. This strategiy normally works like a charm.

But we run into a strange situation several times yesterday, namely that the main tank dies suddenly due to a huge damage spike caused by a physical hit of about 30k and Soul Reaper going off causing another 40k damage. Now, the strange thing is, that no Soul Reaper debuff was on the main tank when this happened. I couldnt see the debuff on my debuff-list, nor did any add on see it (we use DBM, Bigwigs, Grid and Power Auras).

It seems that its a bug and that Soul Reaper goes off and deals the full dmg the moment he casts the debuff on me, instead after a 5 seconds time frame. This sometimes happened during the "valkyr-phase" and sometimes in the last phase, around 30% life.

Does anybody know what could cause this strange behaviour (so we could try to avoid it) or have found a work-around to cope with this bug?

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Soul Reaper does damage twice, once when he casts it and once after 5 seconds. We haven't had the first damage coincide with melee hits though, might be just luck or there is some measure to prevent it. If the taunting for some reason screws up, we've had the delayed damage coincide with a melee hit sometimes and that usually causes a tank death.

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Um, Soul Reaper actually does hit twice. An initial hit of resistable shadow damage, then the followup hit 5 seconds later, which is unresistable and equal to the amount of damage taken on the initial hit before resists. Due to being resistable, the initial hit plus a melee swing usually isn't enough to kill a tank, atleast with a Demo Shout equivalent on the boss.

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There is an initial damage tick on the application of Soul Reaper, additional to the tick after 5 seconds.

We've had it also coincide with melee hits, and it is enough to kill a tank (at least in 25) if he's not topped off and/or isn't using cooldowns.

// Edit

Beaten again...

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What are you doing with Vile Spirits on 10man in P3?

I read that it's best to use an off tank (with some shadow res) to blow them up, we tried to dps them, but single ranged dps can't do the job.

Did someone use such strat (with blowing them up)? How it works in details? Personally i don't believe that optimal method is to dps them, they have 60k hp, it is pretty much ...

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What are you doing with Vile Spirits on 10man in P3?

I read that it's best to use an off tank (with some shadow res) to blow them up, we tried to dps them, but single ranged dps can't do the job.

Did someone use such strat (with blowing them up)? How it works in details? Personally i don't believe that optimal method is to dps them, they have 60k hp, it is pretty much ...

We had 2 ranged dps in our first kill this week. One shadow priest, one fire specced mage. We found that they could AoE some down fast, and single target a couple, but we always called for the melee to move out for a few seconds as they rush to the ground, causing the explosions to rarely if ever catch me whilst tanking. If you are running very melee heavy, consider a full spread to the markers around the grey floor design as then begin to descend. Otherwise its a fact of group composition.

I believe they hover for around 10 seconds or so after they spawn, before choosing a target and chasing them.

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We killed him on 25 man, and in none of the attempts our tanks died. We have a protection paladin in phase 2 on the boss. Myself warrior tank im dealing with the remaining raging spirits, and we only cooldown the first soul reaper.

With proper healers this is not a issue at all. Paladin healers are especially strong in this regard, beacon heal both tanks and if the still die you might want to reconsider your paladins. Only time we had a tank die was when someone died inside the frostmoure room. But that happened at 14% and I managed to get LK fine till 10%.

And to the over complicating things, healers know exactly when to ramp up already since the soul reaper is perfectly timeable.

So you used a Protection Paladin. They are the easiest tanks to heal on the fight due to Ardent Defender, and using one pretty much eliminates the need for an intricate CD rotation or a taunt fest. Paladin healers aren't the problem on this, as I'm sure any guild working on this has tank healers that are capable enough.

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Warlocks can essentially break a lot of the mechanics in this fight by abusing their demonic portals.

After the edges of the room break in the transition phase drop your portals right next to the edge you plan to have the val'kyr running to. Have them stand close to the edge too so DPS don't waste time trying to kill them as they can simply port back up when they get dropped. Because defile always spawns on what the game determines to be the "floor" if a warlock is targeted for defile they can jump off the edge and then port back up, causing the defile to spawn in the void below the platform.

Using these tricks should not be what allows you to kill him or not because there is a lot of RNG involved and a decent amount of the time you won't be able to do this. My guild had 3 warlocks in the raid last night and about every other attempt one of them was able to abuse their portals.

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Warlocks can essentially break a lot of the mechanics in this fight by abusing their demonic portals.

After the edges of the room break in the transition phase drop your portals right next to the edge you plan to have the val'kyr running to. Have them stand close to the edge too so DPS don't waste time trying to kill them as they can simply port back up when they get dropped.

I believe warriors can do the same through the use of intervene.

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efb

Yes, dont let somebody die in Frostmourne. The buff lasts about 15 sec.

Hunters can disengage back onto the ledges if they're lucky.

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Warlocks can essentially break a lot of the mechanics in this fight by abusing their demonic portals.

After the edges of the room break in the transition phase drop your portals right next to the edge you plan to have the val'kyr running to. Have them stand close to the edge too so DPS don't waste time trying to kill them as they can simply port back up when they get dropped. Because defile always spawns on what the game determines to be the "floor" if a warlock is targeted for defile they can jump off the edge and then port back up, causing the defile to spawn in the void below the platform.

Using these tricks should not be what allows you to kill him or not because there is a lot of RNG involved and a decent amount of the time you won't be able to do this. My guild had 3 warlocks in the raid last night and about every other attempt one of them was able to abuse their portals.

I would suggest not trying such tactics, it smacks of exploiting.

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I would suggest not trying such tactics, it smacks of exploiting.

There is no way that first one mentioned could possibly be considered an exploit. The valkyr carries you to the edge and drops you off. You can still cast spells perfectly fine since you are still alive. If your class has a spell which allows you to teleport from one position to another, then why would you not be allowed to use it to teleport back onto the platform? This is obviously working as intended.

For avoiding Defiles by jumping off and teleporting back up, this is more questionable since you're presumably exploiting the 2 dimensional nature of the Defile puddle by making the game think the puddle is below the floor

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For avoiding Defiles by jumping off and teleporting back up, this is more questionable since you're presumably exploiting the 2 dimensional nature of the Defile puddle by making the game think the puddle is below the floor

First, does this even work? I was under the impression that a player's server position was not updated (at least not often) while "falling." Furthermore, if it does work, it sounds like an exceptionally difficult/tricky/risky maneuver. It's certainly not worth risking. If someone could pull it off, I don't think Blizzard would care.

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There is no way that first one mentioned could possibly be considered an exploit. The valkyr carries you to the edge and drops you off. You can still cast spells perfectly fine since you are still alive. If your class has a spell which allows you to teleport from one position to another, then why would you not be allowed to use it to teleport back onto the platform? This is obviously working as intended.

I can apply the same argument to siege bombs, and you saw how well that turned up. Personally, I think even using army and bubble on the spirits in phase 3 is close to exploiting, it does the same thing, allow you to ignore a core mechanic of the phase in order to not switch DPS from the boss. It's obviously NOT working as intended.

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I can apply the same argument to siege bombs, and you saw how well that turned up. Personally, I think even using army and bubble on the spirits in phase 3 is close to exploiting, it does the same thing, allow you to ignore a core mechanic of the phase in order to not switch DPS from the boss. It's obviously NOT working as intended.

All of these are mechanics that can help many fights. Army was nice for Freya, and bubble works on god knows how many effects. Its like saying demonic teleport was exploiting on Anub because you didn't have to run away from him as far. If they didn't want it to work they would have kept you stunned. You know if you have Valkyrs spawn and push Arthas over so that he puts the floor back up, you fall and land on it too. Exploit as well? I mean you're avoiding a whole Valkyr wave...

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Apples and oranges with Anub'arak, as there's not much else you can do in that phase if you're getting chased. As for phase transition, that's a risk you take, that you won't push him over in time. With warlocks, you just ignore it because you know it cannot hurt you and dedicate the time you are supposed to 'waste' on them. You can argue that they should've thought about it, but they didn't, just like they didn't think about many other things. However, the intention was clear, and I personally consider it to be borderline exploiting, or at the very least, something which will get 'fixed' soon enough.

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When Brutallus cast Burn on a rogue, they could "exploit" it by casting Cloak of Shadows, allowing healers not to "waste" healing on them too.

Unless you can force the Val'kyr to always target warlocks, I don't see the issue. The rest of the raid still needs to position correctly in p2, and unless you stupidly stack the raid you'll need to kill the majority of Val'kyr to win the fight.

(Eagerly awaiting the heroic LK killshot with 15 warlocks to prove me wrong)

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Exploit or not is irrelevant. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, don't. If Blizzard agrees, they'll put a stop to it.

Of course, I'd still encourage anyone interested to think twice how they feel about relying on a split-second teleport and the RNG. There's no way you can avoid dealing with 3 valkyr or 2 defiles on a regular basis, so you might as well get used to controlling that situation.

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Apples and oranges with Anub'arak, as there's not much else you can do in that phase if you're getting chased. As for phase transition, that's a risk you take, that you won't push him over in time. With warlocks, you just ignore it because you know it cannot hurt you and dedicate the time you are supposed to 'waste' on them. You can argue that they should've thought about it, but they didn't, just like they didn't think about many other things. However, the intention was clear, and I personally consider it to be borderline exploiting, or at the very least, something which will get 'fixed' soon enough.

I agree there's a fine line between clever use of class abilities and exploiting. On Prof. Putricide, rogues can vanish every tear gas and not get stunned, so you can spend the time freely burning down an add or burning the boss. Mages can use invisibility to do the same thing. Exploit? Or clever players?

As far back as Malygos Warlocks have been able to use demonic circle to avoid boss mechanics, as it would pull them our of her vortex and let them DPS (rogues could do the same using killing spree).

Are either of those situations expoiting? Since they haven't been fixed, I guess not. Blizzard could just as easily have fixed them though and called them exploits, and that would settle that. There are lots of ways rogues can avoid/negate boss mechanics...being a human rogue, between cloak, every man for himself, killing spree, vanish, and feint there are a lot of boss mechanics I have been able to pretty much ignore throughout Wrath raiding.

I guess it's a judgment call, and it's only Blizzard's opinion that matters, so we'll just have to wait and see. They are no doubt aware of all tricks players are using on Arthas. But while some things are clear cut exploiting (causing mobs to bug out and not attack like some guild did on Yogg), using teleport abilities to avoid falling to your death or dropping defile off the edge seem like clever tricks to me.

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When Brutallus cast Burn on a rogue, they could "exploit" it by casting Cloak of Shadows, allowing healers not to "waste" healing on them too.

Well, that's true. But the intended purpose of that ability is to remove debuffs, whereas the intended purpose of Demonic Teleport is to move you to a location faster, not save you from something that should kill you. It is a fine line indeed, but I would still say it's crossing it.

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Putting "Using an ability to save yourself from certain death" into the same sentence as "exploiting" goes kinda wrong.

I can Vanish Kil'Jaedens Darkness of a Thousand Souls - that would be the same line for you.

This is the only encounter to my knowledge where the Demonic Teleport ability can save a warlock from otherwise 100% certain death - if Blizzard had intended for Val'kyrs to be certain death they might as well just let them keep flying out for 100 yards and drop them there. Demonic Teleport is a purely defensive ability, that's kinda fitting isn't it?

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Um, Soul Reaper actually does hit twice. An initial hit of resistable shadow damage, then the followup hit 5 seconds later, which is unresistable and equal to the amount of damage taken on the initial hit before resists. Due to being resistable, the initial hit plus a melee swing usually isn't enough to kill a tank, atleast with a Demo Shout equivalent on the boss.

To clarify, the second hit is "shadowstrike" damage, which means (in theory) it should be reduced by either shadow resistance OR armor depending on which provides the lowest amount reduction (which would be shadow, almost always).

We've had the Initial hit + melee in the same millisecond. Pop cooldowns and adjust, it's really not that difficult when you know exactly when Soul Reaper is coming. Warriors can pre-shield wall, or you can have your Paladins use Aura Mastery shadow to lower the damage on both the initial hit and the delayed hit.

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