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surrender

Post-Patch Depression?

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I honestly don't see how they "broke raiding" in 2.0. Other than things requiring some adjusting (mods, decursing on Noth, and we'll see about Sapph tonight...), our raid DPS was pretty similar to what it usually is, and once people adjusted to their new UIs our raid group performance has been pretty similar to normal - we had a fairly solid 4H kill last night, Gothik dead side was spot on (live side was terrible, leading to a sloppy kill), things really felt very similar to pre-patch except that PerfectRaid not working means I have to use agUF for raidframes, which I dislike.

If you have enough people who want to keep raiding, keep raiding; the patch certainly won't stop you from doing so.

When you have ~17-18 warriors and rogues on a raid the patch is pretty painful. Mages and warlocks especially got huge dps buffs, but rogues and warriors are doing considerably less.

Throw in the fact that we have to redo all our custom mods. And the fact the holidays are coming, and the fact finals are coming before that. There are not enough usable weeks of raiding left before TBC to really put in the effort to relearn content and recode mods for what 1-2 kills each? I could see it if we hadn't killed KT but we've beaten nax and everyone is against farming.

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I definitely feel it, although we're not having serious guild trouble.

Even a few weeks ago, I was expecting to push without stop until the last day before TBC, if necessary (our progress is such that we would have been squaring away at K'T at right about that time). I'd I and the officers did pour an enormous amount of effort into the previous few weeks, and so the did the rest of the guild. We fought down an incredibly exciting first 4H kill just before midnight last Monday (after having spent the past 5 raids or so, more than a week for us, entirely in Deathknight Wing). The guild was beyond ecstatic then--we literally spent half an hour drinking Darkmoon Special Reserve and shooting off Lunar Fireworks in the middle of Ironforge.

If not for 2.0, and the fact that it's December, there probably would have been no stopping us. As it stands though, the combination of those two things means that further progress requires an order of magnitude more effort than it should have.

And now I find myself, previously spending long hours arguing as to why we needed to spend new content instead of farm, and generally motivating people at every turn, trying to put the brakes on what I started. We have three raid weeks left that aren't ruined by holidays, it doesn't take much foresight to see that attendance will be terrible even otherwise, and 2.0 cost us a lot of efficiency in the one week we've already had. So "post-patch" depression hit me just a few days after 2.0.

I feel fine now, but mostly because I relaxed a good bit. I've decided with absolute certainty that nothing between now and TBC will ruin this for me, or change the accomplishment of getting the guild through the Horsemen (which, long story short, was far beyond any previous expectations). So I'm having fun between now and then, and telling guild members to do the same. Some people feel a bit betrayed by the sudden reversal of my "K'T or bust" attitude, but it's simply a reaction to everything that's happening in the game. As Gurg said before their last few raids of 1.0, "there's no point forcing anything at this stage of the game." Not only we end 1.0 in an enormous blaze of glory, we did it our way--four days, ending at midnight, only keeping the trials who really fit in. Pushing for Frostwyrm layer would have been a compromise, even in more favorable conditions. We had an incredible run, and Blizzard is telling us something at this point--the transition to TBC is beginning.

So we're still raiding, and I would absolutely love to see Sapphiron. But as a raid leader, the desire to detach myself from the stress of progress was too great, and I've already taken that step. We're running Loatheb tonight, and I'll run it as well as always, but if we wipe, I'll be able to keep a straight face, say "what do three epics really matter anyway?" and laugh it off. If tanks don't show up for Horsemen, we'll find something fun do to.

So my answer is to keep the right attitude about it. Evaluate now what seems realistic, and what you honestly wants to do. Most people reading this forum have been in the same situation--the great Sisyphean cycle of raid progress--for a year and a half. You can't blame anyone for wanting to get out of it. Find out how people really want to spend their time between now and the world of new content in January.

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We somehow killed 4h today and had a 50% try on sapphiron despite having ~15 new people. I am pretty confident that we'll get sapphiron dead, thus not losing a single "farm" boss this reset.

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We went ahead and split early because, to be completely honest, our raiding core, who survived through the previous rebuild, were utterly burnt out. Right now, we're doing our best to have fun, be it PvP, leveling alts, or what have you and I think it's really helping. The patch, plus a complete refocus to PvP, has really made WoW a different game (not to mention, not running Molten Core for yet another week in a row to gear up a set of players who weren't really invested in the guild, long-term, was a bit of a turn-off to the whole raiding thing).

The only raiding I see in our near future would be some 'lets see if we can 20/15/10-man onyxia' runs to get our alts some shiny new hats that dont cost Honor Points.

I've got about half a guild that really want to continue raiding and skip all the farm content to try and down a new boss (gothik and thaddeus are the 2 we haven't cleared but have access to). The other half says "screw it I'm done."... I suspect that quite a few are going to split off before long just from being fed up with the guys that are holding us back from seeing some of the content we've been paying for.

Eh... I know saying that I was annoyed by <Risen> (Ursin) not killing Emps, even though it would've taken one more night of attempts, would be a gross understatement; however, I'm really happy that we did break split prior to the expansion so that we could do it in an organized manner. As pessimistic as it may sound, I think that figuring out exactly what people want to do now, split-wise, is the best thing you can do, really :-/.

In any case, we've always had a good time running into you guys in AB and I'd really like to see what games will be like once we're on a closer footing damage gear-wise :).

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I'm a little stunned by the High Warlord weapons. As a guild that runs 20-25 man content but intentionally doesn't have the numbers for BWL - Naxx, they're about 5-10 DPS better than anything else we have access to, and they're incredibly easy to get. I understand that Blizzard doesn't care too much about it considering the upcoming level 70 cap. How much do we discuss the balance on level 50 weapons now? It just doesn't matter. But how long do you envision the HWL weapons will last in to TBC? Level 64? 66? That seems very good for something so accessible.

(Granted, they might feel more accessible to me because I can join solid PvP groups, which is not the case for all players. Your mileage may vary.)

It has me debating whether to grind points to get one before they wise up and double the cost, or whether to just ignore them, save my honor until 70, and level up on items I find in TBC.

Regarding the initial question, though, we haven't seen a downturn in interest due to the patch. Put us in the "PvPing happily and resting at raiding until TBC" category.

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Our raiding has been an absolute disaster - we're not a high-end guild, we were farming BWL and working on AQ40. But last weekend our AQ40 raid couldn't even beat Skeram, and our BWL raid wiped a bunch on Vael and then gave up. Seemed to be a mixture of people trying to play with broken UIs, people trying to play with unfamiliar talent builds, people trying to deal with game mechanic changes, I dunno.

But on the bright side, our rolling AB group is almost undefeated, and a nice string of 2000-0 victories cheered up everyone involved. Several people have collected GM weapons already, and many more are well on their way. So morale is good there.

I'm not really expecting any serious raiding from now until TBC. Think it'll just be PvP'ing and waiting.

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Varies from guild to guild, of course.

All I can say is to listen to your membership and have a feel for where people are at with regards to the game, and raiding in particular. Don't bail on raiding if you have a guild that's eager to keep progressing, but by the same token, trying to force raids when the attendance and motivation aren't there is a horrible idea.

We probably could've continued raiding -- we have close to 40 online most times now without anything scheduled, really, just because PvP is fun -- but it would've been touch-and-go with finals and such in full swing. And cancelled or undermanned raids are worse than not scheduling raids at all. I'd rather have everyone fresh and enthusiastic about the game when TBC hits, rather than on the verge of burnout with a few more epics.

I think the worst hit are the guilds who have ~20ish folk who are really keen to continue raiding, and ~20ish that would rather not. These are the groups that break.

If your group is fairly homogenous in that they'd be happy raiding together as a group, or happy waiting till TBC as a group, then yeah, I agree.

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Yes. Rexxar has been plagued with this problem since the first announcements of patch 2.0.1 in mid November.

Since the first releases and burning crusade implied all current content would be obsolete come January 2006 all three front tier guilds have either folded or ceased raiding. Not even Blackwing lair has been attempted.

I think the high warlord weapons were an excellent reset button, but the cost is a but too steep. Raiders watching their gear be outdated over the span of 3 days, or the gear they had while waiting for loot council / dkp to upgrade into Tier 3 have ceased logging in, or do nothing but PVP for GM gear.

I'm not sure if this was intentional by Blizzard. It would seem that the Raid developer knew exactly what he was breaking when the community for two years relied upon a set of crucial mods to beat the given encounters.

Silver lining is that there are a few guilds who have continued raiding. The problem is that like the Ark, you can only take on X of each class. There seems to be too many who still want to see KT dead, yet not enough PVE or PVP guilds which are willing to step up and see the Lich dead.

My only hope (as I've echoed over on the Fires of Heaven forums), is that blizzard sets a firm policy on what and what a mod can not do for you. In doing so, I would also hope that they do not randomly choose to 'reset' all third party community work. If this becomes a common issue with each new expansion (unless they are all on two year time cycles), I think raiding in WoW is done. Or at least, the margin to rebuild a UI and relearn each new set of legal 'assistants', will drive alot of raiders out of the game.

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Well after 2.0.1 release our guild hasn't raided seriously once, in fact around 15-20 people left the guild today due to lack of raiding. Now of course the majority of us are PVP'ing at the moment, so we're not all focused on PVE, but at the moment on the European realms, we go through a hell of a lot of lag spikes and server downtime 2-3 times a day, mainly at raid time :/

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We haven't been raiding much at all. I personally did want to kill Nef before the expansion, but I'm not losing any sleep over this new development (if anything, the guilt about not logging on is gone, gone, gone.) We lost a couple of people who were eager for more raiding. Ironically enough, they haven't found much more raid-solid guilds, from what I know. It's kind of dumb to abandon a guild where you have friends for transient low-level (BWL) epics that you'll replace in a month, at this point.

It also helps that our GM is very good at writing analytical inspirational posts. ;) I think it helps make people feel like we're still solid, and we have a future ahead of us in TBC.

To the OP in particular: Never say die. I've been in a situation where "everyone" was abandoning the guild, and the one thing I learned is if you have a solid core that will stay come hell and high water, then Bob's your uncle. Right now is the best time to weed out the undependables anyway. Recruit people who will be equally committed as those who weathered the storm, and you'll be better in the expansion than you were before it.

(Most idiomatic expressions in one post? >_>)

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Same issue with our guild. We got Patchwerk to 1% with 35 people in the raid and would've killed him had I not gone linkdead for 15 seconds. Between finals and holidays, we've had about 10 people disappear that are otherwise extremely hardcore. Very few (2) quit because of the actual UI changes.

We're staring down the 4H with a kill very near, but it's not just feasible to accomplish it with only 35 people online, tops. I can't wait for 25 man raids.

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Our morale actually seems to be slowly climbing upwards again. I think most of us have accepted that we probably won't see KT, and are okay with just pushing on as far as we can go.

This week of raiding went exceptionally smoothly outside of mod difficulties, all but one of our farm bosses are down- and the boss we just got for the first time last week we planted with a partial raid this week. We're right back looking at Loatheb after we plant Heigan tonight- people are super excited about PvPing to polish out gearing gaps and there's pretty much always a pvp group going (rare for us). Most of our beta folks are even playing Live full time again- it's bringing back some of the heart of the guild. Attendance is okay, several of our apps are promising.... All in all we're coming out the other side of the patch with that semi dazed feeling that we expected it to be the end of the world and not only is everything okay- we're actually kicking ass...

The patch was awesome! =D

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Our raiding has been an absolute disaster - we're not a high-end guild, we were farming BWL and working on AQ40. But last weekend our AQ40 raid couldn't even beat Skeram, and our BWL raid wiped a bunch on Vael and then gave up. Seemed to be a mixture of people trying to play with broken UIs, people trying to play with unfamiliar talent builds, people trying to deal with game mechanic changes, I dunno.

But on the bright side, our rolling AB group is almost undefeated, and a nice string of 2000-0 victories cheered up everyone involved. Several people have collected GM weapons already, and many more are well on their way. So morale is good there.

I'm not really expecting any serious raiding from now until TBC. Think it'll just be PvP'ing and waiting.

I'll toss a "ditto" in here. We, at our apex, were working on Twin Emps, killing Razuvious, and farming BWL weekly. This weekend, Saturday raid was called due to lack of healers and no warlocks. We actually picked up 3 very solid locks Sunday afternoon from another similar-tier guild that was dissolving :(, and had a full raid, with our new locks, ready to go at AQ40, a bit late since the server queues were running 500-600 deep in primetime. We pulled and middle of pre-Skeram trash a 15:00 server shutdown was called. We cleared to Skeram, got one artifact, 4-5 bug mounts, and a half-assed attempt at Skeram to show the new recruits our positioning, server rebooted. About 30min later we had everyone back in and on-line, started buffing and, yes, another 15:00 server shutdown. Raid leader called it at this point since we didn't want to work thru massive server stability problems. We're going to try to form the usual raid schedule this week (clear BWL, as much AQ40 as time remains, possibly Naxx if the right mix class shows up), but I suspect it will be interesting, our Nef strategy is no longer viable, and I'm unsure how many people have figured out decursing strategy without the old addons. Remember that a lot of people learned how to do things over many many weeks "the old way" and a complete transition will be jarring for them.

(Random side note, I hearthed back to IF at this point, then realized I had some Cenarion Hold quests to turn in from acculumated effort during the day. I took the boat from Menethil over to Duskwallow and found that Kalimdor had essentially crashed. There were no NPCs, no flight masters, no mobs, nothing but the boat. I contemplating riding to Silithus anyway and thought better of it. Grab the boat back, and it crashes on the way out, dumping us in the water just off Alcaz Island. I almost fatigue-died there but made it to the coast and got to take a nice tour of Alcaz with no mobs on it. A bit later got a 15:00 notice and Kalimdor apparently rebooted, the flight masters and such re-appeared.

Is this kind of instability common on other servers? We seem to be having a lot of it post 2.0...)

We're seeing a lot of PvP, mostly premade AB also, until very late at night. A few people racked up their first GM weapon yesterday after some monster BG effort Fri-Sun. I'm figuring I will push for a GM Swiftblade now since it's a nice DPS upgrade, plus a solid tanking/aggro weapon, and will come faster than I will see Iblis or Crul'Shorukh given my current DKP state. I'm about 20-25% of the way there and only did an evening/evening-and-a-half's worth of premade AB.

If I was someone who actually did the GM/HWL grind right about now I'd be a little annoyed, the new system seems to be heavily devaluing their accomplishments.

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We had tried a lot to push naxxramas before the patch and signs of burning out from a lot of people were seen. So we decided to just skip pve entirely until tbc (we wouldn't have the attendance anyway) and focus on pvp. Works well so far, everyone seems happy and a lot of people who had vanished made a reappearance, some of them playing even more than before.

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We've had post-patch depression, oh god have we ever. The night before the patch we had our first real face time with Kel (beyond the 'haha we've killed sapph and we're all world buffed... oh god we got to stage 2 what the...' craziness) and in a night of seriously high emotions we came on miles, and in the final attempt of the night we got to stage 3 (not tidily, but we got to see stage 3). I honestly felt like one more night would be a kill for us.

However, in came the patch, and Christ we really need a lower cap on our server, queues be damned. We have had at least 4 people disconnect every single boss kill this week, myself especially (I normally MT 90% of all the bosses too, so there's been a real extra learning curve in there). With only this week and next week between now and Christmas, I've been pushing a Kel or bust policy as hard as I can and I really feel like the learning process and basic farming of this week are a necessary part of that, but by god has it ever been hard work. As raid leader I felt like I was literally dragging everyone to razuvious and through the wipes, but little by little we've speeded up, and it's beginning to feel like we could actually make something of this week (we wont get Sapph, but we might get to see him, which far more than I expected a few days ago).

I can honestly say I don't care about the farming at all but I honestly just cannot imagine, having made such progress on the encounter, us not managing to get Kel before BC.

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If I was someone who actually did the GM/HWL grind right about now I'd be a little annoyed, the new system seems to be heavily devaluing their accomplishments.

I was thinking the same thing, but then a guildie who PvPs (I don't) pointed out a different view of it. The people who got GM/HWL got to be the elite few for quite a while. Now other people are getting the gear, but they didn't have it when it meant something significant. Now the gear is nice, but not amazing, considering the gear that will be available in a month or two once TBC is up and running.

As for guild issues in general, the guild I'm in is still clearing BWL and working halfheartedly on Naxx/AQ40. However, a lot of people are taking time off from raiding to enjoy PvP for a while. The result is that we'll end up with a few cancelled raids, but I think the guild will do fine.

On the other hand, I'm glad we keep raiding so we don't repeat the mistakes of other guilds on our server. One guild announced in October that they were 'cutting away the chaff' to prepare for a November TBC release. After the release was delayed, they tried to get their 40 man groups back together, but couldn't get a decent sized raid group. It seems telling almost 40% of your guild that you're abandoning them makes them less likely to want to raid with you...

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People who did the GM/HWL grind stopped being special about 6 months ago when BWL cash runs came into vogue. When someone can buy an Ashkandi for 500g or something from a random guild, your HWL 2h doesn't look quite so special anymore.

To put things into perspective, the Rank12 armor is level 71. That's Majordomo loot. The Rank13 armor is level 74. That's Vael loot. The Rank14 weapons are level 79. That's a bit above Chromaggus/Huhuran.

The weapons are still nice, certainly, but it's misguided to imagine that the rest really is some great prize or has been at any point in recent times.

The HWL/GM player title is, oddly enough, the real lasting mark of distinction. A year or two from now there won't be so many of those, to say the least, and no one will remember this crappy gear.

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We as a guild are stuck on Gothik before 4h and sapph, KT. We will not kill goth before the expansion. After the expansion hits I am pretty sure our guild will continue to do 25 man content but just barely. Keep in mind that it will be late Feb, early March before people start to hit 70 (in large numbers). We have lost so many people to burnout, quitting, a pvp break, people deciding that redoing all their UI mods is too much work, people bailing to the one other horde guild who is actually doing naxx right now (who just recently caught up to us) and an overall lack of healers due to the same issues and poor recruiting practices plus a total ongoing lack of druids.

Not to mention the fact that there is no loot carrot dangling in front of us because of the expansion and some pretty damn good weapons to be had for not much work PLUS the exams and holiday break hitting all at once means that we went from sitting 10 - 15 people on Naxx free loot nights to not being able to muster 30 people online to raid. Also, we lost some of our best geared tanks - 7/9s Dread, etc - to the same issues.

With the current state of WoW endgame - this critical loss of even one segment of the holy trinity means that our guild, atm and for the foreseeable future is totally and completely fucked. Keep in mind that while this has been "on the horizon" for a while now, this actually happened in the span of about 2 weeks. I don't even log on much right now - I have RL things to do and since I am already rank 13 on 5 characters (I multibox) - I have no real desire to pvp more for a few weapons that I will wind up replacing soon enough as it is.

I just hope that everybody rears their head again for the expansion because from my perspective we are bleeding people right now. That or Blizzard just doesn't care about those of us who are high end raiders - after all we are not the largest market for their product and we consume content and require a lot of their time. So who knows. As it stands right now though, WoW is dying a quick death mainly because the gear is going to be replaced so quickly.

I would also like to extend a big screw you to Blizzard for making HWL/GM weapons so much easier to get. It went from taking literally 1,600 games of WSG (winning most of them) over 4 weeks - doing 12 hour days 5-6 days a week to something in the area of 40 games of AB? Those 1,600 games was what it took to go from Rank 13, Warlord, to Rank 14. That was one rank. Now it is two days of pvping? Not that the system is much more sane (it is) but having worked so damn hard to get R13...... then come expansion everybody suddenly pops up with R14 weps.... just doesn't seem right. On the one hand I do applaud the MUCH more reasonable period of time it is going to take to get R14 weps but seriously.... why the hell was it so damn hard to get them before?

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Well after tonight's fiasco of trying to get a raid going, and probably tomorrow too, I've about officially reached my limit with my guild's unwillingness to do anything besides sit in org and "lol" at all the HWL gear they're getting while we have the talent and gear to down 2 more bosses in Naxx to at least say that we did it and saw most of the content we pay for every night.

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I logged in today to hear that my raid group has disbanded until BC and there will be a post on the forums...

..still in shock.

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We're still working through Naxx (Patch/Grob down last couple days), and enthusiasm is still there it seems, so we're still running everything.

Interestingly, though, we called a raid because people were off their game and battling UIs and etc, next thing there's two seperate AB groups going in-guild.

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I was actually suprised to see all the negative reports from guilds. Our guild just had its highest raid attendance Saturday since the end of Summer with 68 members online and one of the best raids we have had in a while, thanks to the helpful new talent trees. Several inactives have come back to fill out our rosters and morale is increasing daily thanks to the new PvP system. 40 people online at all times constantly PvPing has really been a good thing for us, since pre-patch we hardly ever grouped together as a guild to PvP. The patch has been a much needed blessing in revitalizing motivation.

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For us it's not so much the patch itself, but the combination of many issues

- Xmas period, which is primary holiday period for Oz/Nz

- The patch, which will take a week or two to adjust to

- The ease of PvP rewards, not so much for mains but alts

- A general resignation that 4-5 weeks is not enough time to clear 7 boss to finish Naxx.

We are going to try next week teaming up with another guild in Naxx to see if we can continue the progression.

Maybe with 60 people to choose from we can get 40 to jump and not disconnect on Thaddius :p

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People who did the GM/HWL grind stopped being special about 6 months ago when BWL cash runs came into vogue. When someone can buy an Ashkandi for 500g or something from a random guild, your HWL 2h doesn't look quite so special anymore.

To put things into perspective, the Rank12 armor is level 71. That's Majordomo loot. The Rank13 armor is level 74. That's Vael loot. The Rank14 weapons are level 79. That's a bit above Chromaggus/Huhuran.

The weapons are still nice, certainly, but it's misguided to imagine that the rest really is some great prize or has been at any point in recent times.

The HWL/GM player title is, oddly enough, the real lasting mark of distinction. A year or two from now there won't be so many of those, to say the least, and no one will remember this crappy gear.

I think our server is considerably slower progress-wise than Malganis, even though we are a release server. BWL cash runs were available from one Alliance-side guild starting in October, maybe September. Of the weapons that are ilvl 79 or so -- Ashkandi was 1000g, Crul'Shorukh 800g, CTS 700g, Ashjre'Thul 700g (those are the current prices, might have been higher then?). And, given the droprates of some of those items you might be sitting through quite a few raids before you got your drop, spaced out over enough weeks, plus the gold-farming time, you might as well just grind out the GM weapon, it's probably significantly faster, and hopefully more fun.

I agree that the rest of it isn't terribly amazing once you are killing Twin Emps/C'Thun/Naxx bosses. However, when you are in a guild that is only clearing BWL and parts of AQ40, in many (most? all?) cases the weapons are solid upgrades, and far more deterministic to get. I'm actually looking forward to getting some of our rogues and warriors at least one of these weapons.

Personally, I figured they would serve me in good stead thru the early-middle-ish parts of TBC. Reports I've gotten from people playing in beta were that good armor items were prevalent but really good weapons, less so.

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I think the worst hit are the guilds who have ~20ish folk who are really keen to continue raiding, and ~20ish that would rather not. These are the groups that break.

That was more or less us. The core gave up, /gdisband, and formed a new guild to form the basis of expansion raiding. In the meantime, pvp or sleep.

I've earned maybe 6k honor since 2.0, which should tell you how much I have chosen "sleep" :)

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