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Hamlet

Moonkin PvE Discussion, 3.3.3

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I've updated the explanation on the Team Robot site to reflect what Erdulf said: spells like wrath that are limited by the GCD rather than their cast time will incur the GCD Lag penalty before the next action can be performed, just like chain-casting an instant like moonfire.

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2) If you do not that have the 2T9 bonus (for example, if you've upgraded to 4T10):

2A) If you do not need the Insect Swarm debuff (you are the second Moonkin or are doing content for which it's unnecessary), Glyph Starfall/Focus/Insect Swarm, and leave Moonfire out of your rotation entirely.

Does this imply that we need 3% additional crit (137.7 critrating) to hit the lunar critcap, since theres no MF on the target ? Would be nice to see this mentioned in the guide. Does Wrathcalcs takes this into account, while calculating the scale values?

2B) If you do need the Insect Swarm debuff, Glyph Starfall/Focus/Starfire, unless Focus causes range problems at the fight you're doing. In that case, Glyph Starfall/Starfire/Moonfire.

So the rotation stays the same as in 2a) ? Keeping IS up nearly all the time and cast MF only while moving?

Thanks in advance.

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Does this imply that we need 3% additional crit (137.7 critrating) to hit the lunar critcap, since theres no MF on the target ? Would be nice to see this mentioned in the guide. Does Wrathcalcs takes this into account, while calculating the scale values?

Yeah, I'll have to change the sheet. Should be easy, although I might wait to see exactly what rotations seem worth including in the next version.

The provisional version with a quick "one DoT after Eclipse" rotation is still here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37039-moonkin_raiding/p134/#post1574000 . You can use that to play with different glyphs/rotations. I should probably try to put in something a bit more final before the patch goes live.

The discussion has been really good since the new thread by the way, I've just been doing other stuff for a few days. To suggest one thing for people who are already playing with rotations in Robot (I haven't gotten around to it yet)--it should be able to take into account the "NG clairvoyance" effect in a way that WC can't really easily. It would be nice to set up a rotation that refreshes DoT's after the final nuke of Eclipse and then checks NG during the GCD to see whether to swap nukes immediately or not. Also, people trying out rotations in Robot should post the actual rotation they're using.

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After upgrading to 4t10 and seeing how little moonfire comprises of my total DPS since I just use it during movement I think I may actually drop the moonfire glyph for the rebirth glyph on some fights. Being able to res immediately instead of waiting for a boss ability could definitely be a raid DPS increase on a few fights versus the moonfire glyph.

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To get people started on Mr Robot actions:

To use IS only before, or near the beginning of Solar:

Ability IS only if(NOT(target has IS) AND ((Solar is ready) OR (target has Solar and <= 5s has elapsed)))

To try switching to SF when you're trying for Lunar, and have a Nature's Grace that is probably (not certainly) from a Wrath currently traveling, put this ahead of the current Wrath action. You'll keep the simple SF at the end of the action list:

Ability SF only if((Lunar is ready) AND (NOT(the previous action was SF) AND (target has Nature's Grace and <= 1.3 sec has elapsed) AND NOT (target has Starfall)))

I know that our Target's don't get Nature's Grace or Starfall buffs, but Mr Robot is a bit imprecise. These rules seem to do the right thing.

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Focus just went out the window.

Glyph of Focus: Now increases the damage done by Starfall by 10%, down from 20%.

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Already changed Glyph of Focus on us to lessen the impact of the Starfall buff:

Glyph of Focus: Now increases the damage done by Starfall by 10%, down from 20%.

Edit: I don't think it makes it "out the window" but on single target fights it may not be worth it, but on fights with adds at regular intervals I still see focus as a good option.

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I'll have to check, but it probably kills Focus for single-target.

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Spreadsheet is up. I think we can pretty safely call S/SF/MF the best Glyph setup for ordinary situations. There's not really even much of a potential DPS gain to be found in Glyph of IS. We'll still have the discussion about DoT refreshing schemes, but at the moment I think the "one DoT after each Eclipse" plan looks strongest.

e: I forgot to change the crit cap to account for non-Moonfire rotations, but that's probably not too urgent since it looks like non-Moonfire rotations aren't going to come up anymore.

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I did finally manage to get the Robot simulator to show me the results I was looking for and I'm pretty impressed with them so far.

Glyphs: Starfall, Starfire, Moonfire

Moonfire: Target does not have Moonfire DoT and you do not have Solar Eclipse Buff

Insect Swarm: Target does not have Insect Swarm DoT and you do not have Lunar Eclipse buff and Solar Eclipse is ready.

Result: 10893.7 DPS +/- 26.6

74.9% uptime of Moonfire (roughly 1 application per rotation)

40.2% uptime of Insect Swarm (applied immediately after Lunar Eclipse ends).

Note: the Beta simulator still does not correctly value the 4t10 bonus OR Nibelung. Nibelung's damage should be roughly twice what it is (to reflect the 2% proc rate vs. a 1% proc rate). The 4t10 bonus is off by easily 4% of the damage done, which is a difference of ~425 dps if my math is correct.

That's the best I could come up with. I originally thought that it'd be better to drop IS from the rotation, but it turns out that the overall damage you gain while in Solar Eclipse is enough to make it worth casting before the Eclipse begins (but not worth refreshing during Eclipse after it falls off). Something I found interesting though... Using this rotation that I've mapped out, I'm starting to see Wrath and Starfire fight for the most damage done in these simulations where previously Starfire has always beaten out Wrath and usually by a fairly consistent margin.

Edit to add: Starfall/Moonfire/Insect Swarm is still giving me higher numbers (about 40 DPS) if you set them up so they do not refresh during the opposite Eclipse (Not Lunar for IS, Not Solar for MF). Still something to consider, at least...

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Quote from Blizzard staff

Glyph of Focus: Now increases the damage done by Starfall by 10%, down from 20%.

Yep. Looks like they don't want us dropping our DoTs after all, but don't want to buff them either. I guess this is just a deterrence of sorts. Based on previous math, and the issue with the range as well, I'd say this glyph is no longer worth having.

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I've updated the Team Robot beta simulator with the new Starfall glyph. 4T10 and the nibelung proc rate should be correct on the beta site now too.

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Wanted to report my experiences with Team Robot and to compare to aceofsween's results. A bit of academic rigor trying to reproduce results, a little bit rumination.

Settings:

420 second fight, 1000 runs, 120 latency, 1500ms missile travel time, 0ms queue lag, 50ms GCD lag. intervals.

Glyphs: Starfall, Starfire, Moonfire

Moonfire: Target does not have Moonfire DoT and you do not have Solar Eclipse Buff

Insect Swarm: Target does not have Insect Swarm DoT and you do not have Lunar Eclipse buff and Solar Eclipse is ready.

The above is rotation "1." I tested the above rotation against:

2. Always refresh IS (strict 3% hit debuff duty), but MF under the same tactics 1.

3. Always refresh both DoTs (MF priority).

4. Not using IS at all, MF under the same tactics as 1.

5. Not using IS at all, always refresh MF.

6. Use of IS as in 1., Always refresh MF.

If you look at my armory profile, you can see I use normal Frozen Bonespike/Scourgelord's baton (as I do in practice), and Idol of Lunar Fury as the idol of Lunar Eclipse is the last piece of emblem gear I want to get (and I haven't gotten that many emblems). I would like to use the normal Nibelung I own, but I would have to re-gem for some hit in my current gear to use it, and the fights where the staff is not ideal make this undesirable. I initially ran tests for rotations 1 through 4 with my current setup, and also with Nibelung (still Idol of Lunar Fury though) but decided not to post them when I discovered at some point in the middle of running everything I got set to "randomize fight duration" which would have made my results a bit inaccurate. Also, I figure parses using Idol of Lunar Fury aren't relevant enough to this community to spend the time re-running the 8 cases. I will report in general terms that rotation 1 was the best at 9975dps (w/ Nibelung), rotations 3 and 4 were about 100 dps behind, and rotation 2 was another 25 dps behind with error ranges of about 35dps.

Now for some hard numbers!

When using Nibelung and IoLE, I get:

Rotation 1, IoLE, Nibelung: 10019.7 +-25.7dps

Rotation 2, IoLE, Nibelung: 9918.6 +-24.8dps

Rotation 3, IoLE, Nibelung: 9911 +-24.9dps

Rotation 4, IoLE, Nibelung: 9920.5 +-25.3dps

Rotation 5, IoLE, Nibelung: 9932.5 +-25.8dps

Rotation 6, IoLE, Nibelung: 10018.5 +-25.6dps

Looking at my results, the judicious use of IS as described by aceofsween is best practice for single target if insect swarm is unglyphed. The best way to use moonfire is unclear to me. It was mentioned before, either in this thread or in the old thread, that a moonfire in the middle of a solar eclipse still has a pretty good chance of getting fully extended; maybe that has something to do with it. I'd test for that case specifically, but I can't think of a good way to implement it (going over to Team Robot thread to ask). Something notable is that in rotation 1, insect swarm uptime was ~33%; strictly keeping the 3% hit debuff up per rotation 2 comes at a 100dps loss (ignoring error). That makes the tradeoff about 2% more misses on the tank for a 1% personal dps loss.

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Phylactery spellpower values on 3.3.3 PTR are 1073 and 1206. It seems that the ICD is 100s though, not 90s.

Also, my current mean values of the spellpower proc used a 4s proc time, which is based on 5/6 DoT ticks per second at 30% (i.e. both DoT's up full-time). We're going to have lower DoT uptimes in 3.3.3; I'll use a 6s proc time for now (the effect of this is tiny anyway).

New mean spellpower values:

1073*20/106 = 202.5

1206*20/106 = 227.5

Prior estimated values were 195 and 220. So the buff is actually quite small (since we probably had the ICD wrong this whole time). I'll try to run a spreadsheet comparison soon to see how it compares to Reign/DFO when under/over the crit cap (or someone else can).

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Phylactery spellpower values on 3.3.3 PTR are 1073 and 1206. It seems that the ICD is 100s though, not 90s.

Uhm, maybe I missed something but isn't that a buff compared to where they are at now live?

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Right, the spellpower was buffed. But since the ICD is actually higher than we'd thought it was, the two effects mostly cancel out.

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That seems completely counterproductive. Wasn't the idea of buffing Phylactery because it was under budget (as in it's average Spellpower came out worse than similar trinkets... as in DFO)?

Also conghaile, I still believe that there is a point toward the end of a Solar Eclipse where refreshing Moonfire might be the better option, but the difference is pretty minor. Plus, you also run the chance of having to reapply it before you even proc Lunar eclipses due to the RNG factor. It's more of a trade off than anything else. It'll still result in roughly similar uptimes of Moonfire, so the overall effect is more or less the same.

Finally, Arawethion, are you including Languish in those calculations? I'm fairly certain I remember reading reports about these ticks proccing Phylactery as well. With Languish, you have roughly 1.3 ticks per second, although because Languish can be refreshed before it ticks, I'd say it's closer to 1.25 ticks per second. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to interpret your "5/6 DoT ticks per second" number.

Edit:

With the Simulator update, I wanted to also give a quick update on my rotation numbers:

Rotation 1: 11634.0 DPS +/- 31.0

Glyphs: Starfall, Starfire, Insect Swarm

Moonfire: Target does not have Moonfire, you do not have Solar Eclipse

Insect Swarm: Target does not have Insect Swarm, you do not have Lunar Eclipse

Rotation 2: 11637.6 DPS +/- 31.4

Glyphs: Starfall, Starfire, Moonfire

Moonfire: Target does not have Moonfire, you do not have Solar Eclipse

Insect Swarm: Target does not have Insect Swarm, you do not have Lunar Eclipse, and Solar Eclipse is ready

As you can see, the simulator is pretty up in the air for both rotations. Both are easily within the margin of error and so close that it is almost impossible to determine which one is truly better. The difference between the two essentially comes down to how often you apply Insect Swarm. The first rotation has about a 75% uptime of Insect Swarm while the 2nd rotation has about a 40% uptime.

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My guess is that the ICD was always 100s and nobody ever tested it properly, since we'd all assumed it was 90 beforehand, and the difference isn't noticeable at a glance.

When I did trinkets last patch, I assumed constant DoT refreshing. So each second, you have half an IS tick and 1/3 of a MF tick, so 5/6 DoT ticks total. 1/(5/6 * 30%) = 4, whch is where I got the 4s mean proc time from. The 6s above I totally pulled out of my hat since we don't know get what actual DoT uptimes will look like yet in 3.3.3.

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Ah, okay. I follow what you're saying now.

I believe I may have answered the question about DoT uptimes already at least. I can't find a rotation that generates higher DPS from the Simulator, although we'll have to wait to see how things work in game I suppose. Either way, it's safe to assume. Uptimes for the 1st rotation are roughly 76% for both Insect Swarm and Moonfire. For the 2nd rotation, the uptime of Insect Swarm drops to 40%, but Moonfire stays up around 76% because there's no real change there.

Additionally, while Languish has a 92% uptime, it only ticks 62 times over the course of the 300 second simulation, giving you roughly 1 tick every 4.8 seconds, much lower than I thought it'd be. My haste is just barely at the point where it will refresh it constantly during a Lunar Eclipse cycle which likely contributes to that.

It's probably best to break up the proc rate between Solar and Lunar phases though. During the Pre-Lunar and Lunar phase, you'll only have Moonfire and Languish up. During Pre-Solar, you'll have Moonfire, Languish, and Insect Swarm up. And then in the Solar phase, you'll have Insect Swarm for the most part and Languish with Moonfire about to expire in about 6 seconds or so.

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For Languish, I don't have a moonkin with 4T10 that I can test it with myself... so I'm not 100% certain that I did it correctly in the simulator. Here were my assumptions:

- One application of Languish ticks twice at a 2 second interval.

- When Languish is applied, any damage from an existing Languish that has not ticked yet, gets averaged over the 2 ticks of the newly applied Languish.

- When Languish is applied, it starts the 4-second timer again, e.g. if Languish is applied at time 2.00, it will then tick at time 4.00 and 6.00.

Note that because of the 3rd assumption, if you were to get a crit from either starfire or wrath more often than once every 2 seconds, Languish would actually never do damage, because the timer would keep getting reset.

Is that 3rd assumption correct? That assumption is why the number of ticks seems low. If you look at the combat log and filter to "tier ten four piece", you'll see a whole bunch of "dot applied", "dot applied"... then a massive tick. On a hot crit streak, I've seen the simulator put out 5.5k or larger Languish ticks.

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After a little over half an hour with the training dummy in Ironforge, I am certain the ICD is in fact 100 seconds. I used procodile, and the fastest ICD recorded was a little over 100 seconds. I do believe the proc rate might be slightly higher than assumed, with both dots up, and languish ticking at every proc, I only once saw a width of over 104 seconds between procs. (15 trials) Will test more tomorrow.

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The Robot results are interesting, and consistent with the last WC update. It seems the situation looks like this:

IS is best used either once per rotation (end of Lunar). Full refreshing loses a measurable amount of DPS. A good compromise might be to refresh after each Eclipse--that recovers a good bit of debuff uptime at a very small DPS loss. This is such a minor DPS variation that I don't want to overcomplicate the guide with three different options, but I'll try to summarize somehow.

MF: best usage so far "anytime except Solar," it seems. Probably actually "anytime except the beginning of Solar," but not only is that difference negligible, there's something convenient and practical about refresh at the end of Eclipses. Just to think about how this will play out:

You refresh as Solar ends. X seconds later (mean is around X=4), you proc Lunar and extend the MF. So it expires 24 seconds after you cast it, which is 9-X seconds after Lunar ends. But 4-5 seconds after Lunar ends is ether during Solar or during pre-Solar. If it comes up during Solar, you don't refresh until Solar ends, and this has simply reduced to the "refresh once after Solar" scheme that I predicted with WC. If it comes up during pre-Solar, I suspect it's still unideal to refresh, but nobody tested a condition that was so finely-grained. If I had to conjecture the optimal refresh rule, it would actually be, "refresh during pre-Lunar, during all but the last few seconds of Lunar, never during pre-Solar, and only during the last few seconds of Solar." Someone can feel free to tinker with that if you want. At the very least, perhaps take the MF rotation you were using above and see what happens if you stop refreshing during pre-Solar.

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I agree with you on pretty much all points.

If you have to reapply MF during the Pre-Solar phase, you will end up having to reapply it again after Solar Eclipse, which means it's probably not a good use of the GCD. It also seems like in simulation, Moonfire almost always lasts into the Solar Phase anyway. The only time it doesn't is when you have a poor RNG with the proc on Lunar Eclipse. I did test out an "Only when Lunar Eclipse is Ready" condition, but the results came up more or less the same (or at least within the margin of error).

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I'll probably update the guide accordingly then. One more question for the people testing rotations in Robot--did you construct your rotations to take advantage of the reaction time gained by casting instants during pre-Eclipse phases? i.e. say Solar is ending, so you're about to cast IS. What you really want to do is cast IS immediately after the final Solar Wrath, then check if it procced NG, then cast SF for your next spell if it did, otherwise Wrath, etc. Similarly, if we are in fact going to refresh both DoT's after Solar ends, is best to cast one, then a nuke, then the other (instead of two in a row)? That way you have to two chance for Eclipse to proc during a DoT CGD, preventing you from wasting a Wrath at the beginning of Lunar.

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