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Cryect

Druids and Aggro Generation

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Even with 25% mangle, 20 druids = ~86.74times damage. That's 22812 damage/tick for each druid or about 225k raid DPS, 2.7mill damage over 12s..

You'd better hope there's a couple of tanks with some +spellhit gear, because they're going to need that taunt..

I think a raid of 20 ferals saving 5 point rips for when Onyxia hits 68% would be the perfect time to abuse it.

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I wonder what would happen if you killed onyxia in phase two :D

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Not my observed behavior on beta, not specced feral on live to test it there. =P

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I wonder what would happen if you killed onyxia in phase two :D

Um, she crashes into the ground, nose first.

I'll see if I can dig up a screenshot, but it's been a while. We might have had a heavy warlock raid.

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Don't confuse the Druids tanking 5-20 mans in DPS gear for the Druids wearing full mitigation gear in 40 man raids.

Imagine a Druid tank having a scale like this:

[----------------------------------------------------------------------]

Max Threat Max Mitigation

Usually in hard content it will look like this:

[---------------------------------------------------------------------|-]

Max Threat Max Mitigation

(Note I am just talking about gear not buffs. I don't remember the last time I had issues in Max Mitigation gear either though because buffs and Sunder do help alot.)

Bumped the searches up to include epics from TBC and was able to get to 20k armor, 14k health and 2500 AP. I left the spreadsheet at work but dodge and defense was pretty decent too.

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Bumped the searches up to include epics from TBC and was able to get to 20k armor, 14k health and 2500 AP. I left the spreadsheet at work but dodge and defense was pretty decent too.

For physical damage dealing bosses I'd personally still be inclined to trade off a chunk of that attack power for extra armour where feasible. 20k may sound high by current standards but given you'll need somewhat over 30k from memory to hit the 75% cap against a level 73 opponent and that druids are very dependent on AC based mitigation there's still a lot of potential mitigation that's being passed up on.

Be interested if you could chuck up a gear list though of what's going in to those figures - a set of high AP gear just in case there are any very agro sensitive but not too mitigation demanding fights has been something I've been thinking about putting together in TBC while gearing up again.

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Fully expected Earthwarden to be in there yes :).

Putting together tanking sets based off the feral tier sets is a bit difficult given it's far from bear focused gear. Could certainly make for a somewhat viable on the fly swap to tank instead of dps set and as you say pretty good for a high AP set. Problem is though that we don't have any actual bear focused itemisation to compare it to, something there's been a fair bit of discussion about the lack of at a raid level so far in other threads, making it a default rather than a chosen trade off of survivability versus agro.

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I worked out a 12.5 second rotation which seems fairly maximal for such a short rotation.

Works out to the below most important numbers with the exacts in the updated original post.

Threat Per Second ~= A*(1+C)*(P*0.446+678)+185.6

Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

A = Armor Mitigation

P = Attack Power

C = Crit Rate

Now this would be fairly optimal if lacerate never missed/dodged/parried though you do get one chance to try again with replacing a swipe before the Lacerate debuff falls off.

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If we assume

A=70%

C=25%

Then we get the below much simplified number

Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778

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One more interesting thing from the numbers we can work out though will need to redone potentially with new Lacerate numbers is determine at what Attack Power is it better to replace Lacerate with an additional Swipe

A*(1+C)*(P*0.24174+290)=4*580

Using the numbers of A=70% and C=25%

P*0.212+254=2320

P=9745

In otherwords, swipe will never replace using Lacerate for maximum aggro on single targets where you can build and maintain a 5 stack of Lacerate which was pretty much expected (well never meaning not till we get the gear to allow that much Attack Power but that will be a long way off at which time most of this will prolly change a lot).

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Just to be a smart ass:

OMG Lacerate doesn't scale?!?!

I'm very pleased with it as a threat generating ability. All this talk of abusing Mangle to buff rip to insane levels has me thinking ... it would also buff Lacerate to insane threat levels if the same trick worked. If my math is right ... over 50,000 threat per tic on lacerate with 20 Mangles.

LFG 20 Druid Onyxia!!

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Threat Per Second ~= P*0.39+778

Rage Required Per Second = 168 Rage/12.5 Seconds = 13.44 Rage/Second

Took me a while to refind these but wanted to compare them to similarly generated Warrior numbers I found using the same

Grand Total: 719.7 * 1.15 * 1.3 -> 1075.9 TPS

RPS needed un-modified by talents: (4*15 + 20 + 5 + 2*15)/6 -> 19.2RPS -> 1573 DPS taken

RPS modified by talents: 13.2 RPS -> 914.2 DPS taken

http://beta.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=1860260&postId=18400885&sid=1#6

So we can see the rage needed by both warriors and druids in this situation is very similar.

Then for comparison purposes

P*0.39+778=1075.9 TPS

P=764

So 764 attack power is around the break even point for comparison to this similarly generated warrior threat values which are a whole lot less attack power based than the druid numbers are of course. So generally you will expect on a single target that a druid is likely generating more aggro.

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Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It's late, but it's not an insignifigant amount, and it has some interesting behavior. If I remember I'll try to model it tommorrow. Short summary - capping out at 100 rage, being less threat per rage efficient actually gens a bit more threat than you'd expect simply because you clear more room to generate additional rage.

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Something rarely examined is the threat gained from actual rage gen. 5 threat per point of rage you actually generate (so over genning you 100 doesn't do anything).

It is fairly insignificant, actually, because it is not modified by defensive stance/bear form. Gaining 5 point of rage from a Swipe or Maul crit means 25 points of threat. If you crit every third Maul and every third Swipe in a boss fight (assuming a 33% crit rate or thereabouts), that comes out to about 9 extra threat per second.

In a multi-mob tanking situation, note that threat from rage being generated is split evenly between mobs, just as threat from healing or buffs.

Normal rage generation from taking damage or doing white damage does not create any additional threat.

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Would a 70 druid mind posting base stats? Str, Agi, Sta, HP, Armor? I dug around last night and couldn't find them anywhere.

Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Edit - Filling in a few things with guesses, 1500 hp, 70 str, 70 agi, 70 sta naked.

Gear:

Staff http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=13907

Back http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15139

Chest http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16960

Feet http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16382

Finger 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16315

Finger 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16451

Hands http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16071

Head http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16961

Legs http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16958

Neck http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16400

Shoulders http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16959

Trinket 1 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16494

Trinket 2 http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16834

Waist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=9940

Wrist http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16188

Head/Leg/Shoulder Enchants:

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=15715

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=16877

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=8507

Other Enchants:

Enchant 2H Weapon - Savagery

Enchant Cloak - Major Armor

Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats

Enchant Boots - Fortitude

Enchant Ring - Stats

Enchant Ring - Stats

Enchant Gloves - Threat

Enchant Bracer - Major Defense

Buffs and Consumables:

Battle Shout

Blessing of Might

Blessing of Kings

Devotion Aura

Stength of Earth

Grace of Air

Blood Pact

Elixir of Major Strength

Mark of the Wild

PW: Fortitude

Flask of Fortification

Elixer of Major Defense

Elixer of Major Agility

Final stats:

Strength: 527

Agility: 518

Stamina: 1005

Defense Rating: 180

Dodge Rating: 69

Attack Power: 2659

Armor: 22013

Health: 16313

* Additional note: With the inspiration proc up this druid will have 28616 armor, creeping up on 75% mitigation. 30% avoidance and 75% mitigation ... 17.5% incoming damage

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Also Cyrect your description of the AP gain for swipe is mis-worded. It the formula below you have is correct (0.07 * AP) then it should read "1 damage per 14 AP".

Because the number worked out to fit exactly 0.07 and 1/14 doesn't match the numbers very close at all.

Atk Pwr	Data	0.07		1 per 14

 445		152	151.998	 152.8371429

 473		154	154.5852	155.4771429

1314		232	232.2936	234.7714286

1554		254	254.4696	257.4

For 0.07 formula was (84+(Atk Pwr)*0.07)*1.1*1.2 and for 1 per 14 it was (84+(Atk Pwr)/14)*1.1*1.2

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Not saying you are wrong, just saying its mis-worded

1 damage per 0.07 Attack Power

That would mean with 1000 AP, I get 14286 damage added to my swipe!

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In TBC my druid has 2 sets, A mitigation/Stam set that clocks in at 18500 Armor and 13000 health 1300AP. I rarely use this. My standard 5 man tanking set 15000 Armor 11000 Stamina and 1500 AP. While tanking an instance I am top 2 or 3 for DPS. I have never seen a TBC warrior beat anyone other then main healer for DPS. Warlocks, Rogues and Elemental shaman are the three classes that I see consistently beat me on DPS. All of the best 5 mans I have been in have a druid tank. The only time we ever prefer a warrior tank is if the content was above our level or it was a heroic mode instance. In those cases the mitigation in block/parry/dodge from a warrior are essential.

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Given that Idol of Brutality's no longer such a buff to Maul's rage efficiency thought I'd take a look at Maul vrs Mangle in low rage situations.

Borrowing the above equations:

Maul 10 Rage Talented

Aggro_Maul=A*(1+C)*(P*0.61669+1080)

Mangle 15 Rage Talented

Aggro_Mangle=A*(1+C)*(P*0.64271+812.6)

Striping out the Armour mitigation and crit rating since these will be constant we're left with

P*0.61669+1080 for 10 rage for maul

P*0.64271+812.6 for 15 rage for mangle

At 2000 AP for arguement's sake this gives us:

2313 for Maul - 231 threat per rage

2098 for Mangle - 140 threat per rage

That however is ignoring the auto attack that would also get added into the equation so:

Auto attack at 2000 AP = 494 damage on average. Multiply by 1.1 (Naturalist), 1.3 (Bear form), 1.15 (Feral Instinct) and we get 812 threat, once again pre AC/crit of course.

So, Mangle + Auto attack becomes 2910 threat for 15 rage, 194 threat per point of rage and quite a bit closer to Maul. Main thing I'm missing here is the level 70 rage generated formula since mangle plus auto attack also generates some rage off the white damage which I suspect may actually tip this combination into the lead over straight maul unless I've missed something - would appreciate it if anyone had this to hand, about to go track it down though.

Mangle/auto attack also has the benefit of giving two chances to crit and therefore generate both rage off Primal Fury and a 4% heal off ILotP plus since it's spreading the threat over two attacks rather than one threat generation is likely to be somewhat more even reducing the risk of missing a maul and having no significant threat being added for 5 secs. This combination also puts out higher raw dps - not very significant in a raid but useful in a small group situation plus it keeps the mangle debuff up if that's of significance.

Edit: This may be old news to people, hadn't actually reassessed Maul's position though since the idol of brutality change and only just realised it's not necessarily the low rage default special. Also just realised the above calculations don't have any idols taken into account, +50 damage from maul still being optimal I guess, +58 on mangle though partly compensating so difference will be minor if only able to choose between those two moves - will rejig numbers when got a sec.

Edit2: Also need to know whether the damage added by the idols is multiplied by Savage Fury in particular. Assuming it does benefit from Naturalist but nothing else but would be good to get this confirmed.

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Idol of Rejuv is effected by Gift of Nature, Improved Rejuvenation, and Empowered Rejuvenation. I see no reason why the other +effect idols wouldn't be effected by everything possible as well.

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I must admit, I've always been a little ignorant of Druid tanking mechanisms as they are one of the only two classes I never bothered to level much past 20. If nothing else, thanks for the math to give me a little insight there. The repercussions of such a system are still rattling around in my head but I think I see what the devs have intended here.

The thing I find most interesting is the threat+damage v mitigation system that seems to naturally evolve and I'll be damned if I didn't wish warriors had some mythical stances like cat/bear that mirrored this functionality. As a Mage I've been annoyed countless times working with perfectly capable and competent Warriors doing trash content, who obviously prefer to tank in dps gear and more often than not in battle/'zerker. If they wear tanking gear, they get no rage. If they wear dps gear, they hate to stay in defensive and generally are specced for fury dps anyhow. Sadly dps-tanking for the cash-farming or mats-farming old 5-mans is all well and good but I still end up being the tank for almost everything unless we just AE the crap out of multi-pulls. A tank that scales threat with damage (while giving up mitigation) is a dream for that sort of thing. Also, having so many percentage-based multipliers is certainly a nice thing indeed.

It would also seem to me that armor reductions would be multiplicative for a Druid tank unless I am misunderstanding this information. Since sunders are not an issue, running (feral) FF, ImpExpose, CoR and so on might even make the threat gains significantly greater and the raid dps higher enough enough that bringing an additional healer to offset poorer avoidance worthwhile. I know, I am in beta and I do see Druids already being the 'preferred' tank for a lot of content but I just wonder at what point they would become not just preferable situationally but universally the best option. I certainly support having them as a tank of choice in some situations but I'd hate them to be simply better and only constrained by gear. I honestly don't see that yet but it is a concern given the differing nature of Druid v Warrior scaling.

Thanks for the information and apologies for the speculation without concrete data.

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