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Narcosleepy

Cataclysm Rogue Changes

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just a note to prevent people from forgetting, blizz stated that recoup will be based on max health which will make it as effective at cap as it is while leveling. how effective this will be is yet to be seen but dont count out the ability yet.

the raid settings of cata may be drastically different from any previous raids in the game. this thought is further supported by them wanting to change the entire experience. so smoke bomb may very well be a vital part of a future raid. perhaps where there are multiple ranged adds or a ranged boss. placing a smoke bomb over your healers or ranged dps to let them do their job without being attacked. place the ice wall in front of it and some shrooms+traps and perhaps you can keep your ranged doing their job without being effected for a short while.

keep in mind that with the goal blizz has for cata that using even the most basic system currently in place as a basis to judge the changes is a mistake in itself. theres already a simple use for pve smoke bomb. kiting. if nothing else (dependent on weather friendly spells can still cross the smoke) it would be a good way to pull any ranged adds to the tank during a boss fight. giving the tank an easier time to control aggro of the fight.

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Depending on what abilities are actually hindered by Smoke Bomb, it may also be a nice way to manage targets for boss or mob random secondary target abilities. If a well timed smoke bomb can prevent a part of the raid from being targetted, it opens up interesting possibilities to proactively control an encounter instead of reacting to a random choice.

For example, in the Putricide encounter, it could be used to prevent a green ooze from targetting part of the raid (characters at melee range of Putricide for example) and thus minimize the risks of tanking the boss near the ooze spawn point.

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It is clear that the new abilities do not alter Rogues in a raiding environment, their use seems geared more towards PvP. We need to know more about how the current talent tree is changing though. The mastery bonuses seem to be standard fare and we might end up with getting more passive damage increases from these bonuses than from talents. It will be interesting to see the changes to the current talent trees since Blizzard wants to reduce poison + white damage.

It is quite possible that Blizzard is very happy with how Rogues are performing and functioning in a PvE environment and do not plan to make the kind of mechanics changes we are seeing with other classes (e.g. Hunters and Focus, Warriors and Rage).

the raid settings of cata may be drastically different from any previous raids in the game. this thought is further supported by them wanting to change the entire experience. so smoke bomb may very well be a vital part of a future raid. perhaps where there are multiple ranged adds or a ranged boss. placing a smoke bomb over your healers or ranged dps to let them do their job without being attacked. place the ice wall in front of it and some shrooms+traps and perhaps you can keep your ranged doing their job without being effected for a short while.

While Smoke Bomb might prove useful in some situations in raiding, Blizzard is not going to create a boss fight that relies on an ability that is present with just one class. Blizzard wants to move away from cases when fights become way more easier with a particular class present.

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I've seen quite a few posters admitting they feel Blizzard is being contradictory in giving Combat a haste mastery while also saying that they are trying to reduce rogue passive damage. An important point that seems to be [repeatedly] forgotten here is that haste will increase energy regen (I don't know how it will affect auto attack speed), which would increase the ratio of specials to passive damage. This is nothing new and has been known for a while, I just wanted to underline the point since it seems to be lost in a lot of this discussion.

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Well honestly I feel, while ArP would be good for both trees(Combat and Sub) I do not see haste truly benefiting the Sub tree as much as Combat. The melee haste, minus the energy regen would be almost wasted on the Sub tree as auto attacks are so little of the damage. It seems a better fit for the "nukey" tree to have more punch on its attacks rather than auto attacking quicker.

As for Smoke Bomb I think a lot of us are scarred that it will change the way some boss encounters will have to be done. A rule in raiding seems to be making fights as simple for ranged dps as possible often shafting melee. I can only see this ability adding to this trend where it will be important for us to even stop dps to get up the Smoke Bomb for the ranged group.

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For Haste, I'd actually guess that this mastery is what's replacing vitality and lightning reflexes.

I think with ArP being in the sub tree, they might be trying to prop up Eviscerate as the main finisher there. While, Assassination get Envenom, Combat gets Rupture. All in an attempt to make 3 close trees.

Just have to wait for the talent tree previews now to see what they got planned.

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While Smoke Bomb might prove useful in some situations in raiding, Blizzard is not going to create a boss fight that relies on an ability that is present with just one class. Blizzard wants to move away from cases when fights become way more easier with a particular class present.

while blizz isnt going to create a fight that hinges on having the ability im more than willing to bet that it will be useful at times in a raid situation. as i said it may just be used to kite in some ranged adds. its a situational ability so its not going to apply every time and it wont be required but it would help.

on the topic of haste in combat and arp in sub. sub had serrated blades and combat had vitality/adren rush. they arent giving the classes the bonuses based on what they need but what they had so they can remove as many passive talents as possible. my guess is serrated blades will no longer be in sub and vitality will no longer be in combat.

also so everyone here is aware

One more point: Fan of Knives was not nerfed. I'm not sure where that concept is coming from unless you are interpreting that from changing the weapon it's based on to the ranged weapon. We didn't talk much about numbers, so unless you see "We want this abilitiy to do less damage," then you're just jumping to conclusions. It's safer to assume that every number in the game is changing, but the relative roles of abilities and talents are staying the same unless we specify otherwise (not that we're listing every single talent tree change in these previews - far from it.)

We just want the ranged weapon to be more than a stat stick for rogues. Adding poisons to FoK is actually a pretty hefty buff. Yes, this means that bows and guns aren't of much interest to rogues (after leveling). But in this case we want Fan of KNIVES to be taken literally. :)

Now, having said all that, we suspect you will AE less often in Cataclysm. You'll CC more and you'll burn targets down one at a time more often. But that just means all classes will do less damage with AEs. That's not a rogue nerf.

a blue post in the rogue preview. so the current perception is that FoK wont lose its power since they can simply change the percentage to boost the power relative to how powerful thrown weapons are. so FoK simply got a buff in being able to have a seperate poison. while having the minor nerf of only using 1 poison instead of 2

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It's kinda obvious that FoK will be somewhat weaker against high amount of mobs where the hardcap hits in since a smaller portion of it will be poison, which currently ignores this cap completely like ground dots and diseases. Though hopefully it'll make it easier to tune up the physical part to make it worth using to cleave a couple mobs. It's very rare that boss encounters are designed around large amounts of mobs anyway.

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I have a sneaking suspicion that Smoke Bomb's ability to make half the raid or more immune, even temporarily, to any single target spell effects just won't be allowed. Anything of boss level will likely just ignore Smoke Bomb effects. This will be a great skill for any PvP but I just can't see it being allowed to work in raids.

This was basically my line of thinking. I fully expect bosses to entirely ignore the smoke bomb, making this ability pretty meaningless in every pve situation outside of maybe some pulls that you want to easily LoS but can't (the aoe packs before Marrowgar, for instance). Here's a brief list of what it *could* do for us currently, which is just further reason to me why bosses would ignore it entirely.

Marrowgar: Tanks can't be spiked, rotate smoke bombs so a non-tank is never spiked.

LDW: Smoke bomb before MC and have the raid hop in as they dps adds down, no MC happens.

Saurfang: Have non-tanks hop in a cloud immediately before a mark, tanks always recieve mark.

Putricide: Smoke under melee clump, ranged are always picked for green slimes.

Princes: Smoke under a stacked ranged clump, empowered vortex applies to melee/tanks only

BQL: Entire raid stacks in a smoke bomb for air phases and not a single person get blood bolted.

Sindragosa: Ranged stacks in the smoke before unchained magic is cast, no one gets it.

LK: complete control of defiles, or even none at all.

And these are just the obvious first things that come to mind. Think of all the situations where a bit of planning would let you "pick" every "random" boss ability. Sure it might not seem like a huge deal to pick who gets the festergut spores, but when a boss with a similar mechanic is hard for a guild, that is going to be a meaningful option. We regularly raid with 5 rogues and have raided with as many as 7 in the past, so "rotations" for well spaced and well timed boss abilities is definitely not out of the question, but I'd really hate for it to come to that. I really can't see this working in any way on raid bosses. As far as the other stuff, I agree with what most pve rogues have already said here and elsewhere. These new abilities don't feel like they're going to change my raiding experience at all, and seem largely geared at pvp.

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Almost all of those don't work/help. Please recall that most of those abilities can be targeted at melee, so if there's no legal targets at range (due to Smoke Bomb or whatever) they can still do it on melee. So:

Marrowgar: You could probably make him always spike melee... ok, who cares. You can achieve the same effect by just having everyone stand in melee range anyway.

LDW: I suspect you just wind up with them all running into melee and then casting it. Which again, doesn't help that much.

Saurfang: He always marks melee. Might make shaman healing it a little easier, but hardly game-breaking. Unless you're advocating having all the melee stop DPS and run out to a cloud, which is bad for other reasons. And somehow I suspect piling multiple marks onto the tanks would be an extremely bad idea, particularly in hard mode, anyway.

Princes: Empowered Vortex is not targeted but AoE, so would be unaffected. And if your ranged are struggling with Empowered Vortex, you have other issues.

And, honestly, the utility on some other fights seems... limited at best. Like, I can conceive of uses on Gunship, and before that Faction Champions, but, realistically... most random secondary target abilities you'd rather have on range than on melee *anyway*, so I don't see the ability to force them onto melee as being particularly strong. Even assuming it works. Which, in a lot of cases, it wouldn't.

Also, please note that raiding with 5 rogues is exceptionally unusual. I suspect the number of serious and semi-serious raid guilds that regularly run 2 or fewer rogues outnumber those that run 4 as a matter of routine. Typical is probably 2-3, and even that is something that Blizzard is unlikely to "require" via fight mechanics.

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LDW: It would be somewhat helpful for a strategy where you clump up all adds near Deathwhisper, so that the caster adds are running into melee range and can be AoEd down. You can use Grip, Counterspell and/or the pillars there to achieve the same thing now.

Saurfang: In our first tries we suffered from mages getting marked, which was an extremely bad call for us, due to them being so squishy. Thus the encounter really felt very RNG for us and we still joke about how unlikely it is that two mages in a row get a mark (which of course did happen right after the comment was made back then). A Smoke Bomb would have been helpful there.

For Haste, I'd actually guess that this mastery is what's replacing vitality and lightning reflexes.

I surely hope they do. I do not want to imagine having both talents AND an increased energy regen through haste. Escpecially during ARush, which already sometimes feels like a smash feast.

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Ghostcrawler likened Smoke Bomb (and Hunter's Camouflage) to being out of line of sight in terms of game mechanics, so one can assume that it works the same way as being out of line of sight for boss abilities does - which in fact would mean it won't work most of the time, as the majority of boss abilities ignore line of sight completely.

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Almost all of those don't work/help. Please recall that most of those abilities can be targeted at melee, so if there's no legal targets at range (due to Smoke Bomb or whatever) they can still do it on melee. So:

Marrowgar: You could probably make him always spike melee... ok, who cares. You can achieve the same effect by just having everyone stand in melee range anyway.

LDW: I suspect you just wind up with them all running into melee and then casting it. Which again, doesn't help that much.

Saurfang: He always marks melee. Might make shaman healing it a little easier, but hardly game-breaking. Unless you're advocating having all the melee stop DPS and run out to a cloud, which is bad for other reasons. And somehow I suspect piling multiple marks onto the tanks would be an extremely bad idea, particularly in hard mode, anyway.

Princes: Empowered Vortex is not targeted but AoE, so would be unaffected. And if your ranged are struggling with Empowered Vortex, you have other issues.

Did you even read what I typed?

Marrowgar: He *can not* spike tanks, thus the cloud prevents all spikes, not just confines them to melee.

LDW: The adds are not the ones casting the MC, LDW herself is, and as far as I know she can't move during P1, thus potentially no MC is cast at all.

Saurfang: No, he does not always mark melee. He marks a random raid member, tanks included, and by putting your whole raid (other than tanks) under smoke, you force the mark to get put on a tank, which is a pretty big advantage for any guild still struggling with normal mode or working on hard mode.

Princes: The effect that the empowered vortex produces is an aoe effect, but the application of each "debuff" so to say on each player which produces the aoe effect is a single target ability. That's like saying mages will be able to living bomb a rogue under smoke, I highly doubt this. Just like empowered vortex, LB is a single target spell which eventually produces an aoe effect.

I don't mean to pick nits over somewhat tiny perks, but you seemed to have misunderstood every single bullet on the list, and I agree, these aren't huge perks to any guild that farms normal modes, but I'm more thinking of guilds on working on hard modes or guilds struggling on normals. Likewise, my original intent was not to entail all of the overpowered applications, I was just giving a brief list (emphasis on brief, many more applications exist) of why I believe boss abilities are going to ignore this mechanic entirely.

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@Princes: There is no benefit to having only the melee/tanks get Emp Vortex. If anything you'd want RANGED to be the only ones targeted since they should already be spread apart, thus allowing the melee to stay in place and not get a stack of the movement debuff (for hard mode).

@Saurfang: Blood Nova makes this a bad idea if it occurs near Mark timing.

@BQL: Depending on fears the entire raid likely wont be able to get to the same location

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Marrowgar: He *can not* spike tanks, thus the cloud prevents all spikes, not just confines them to melee.

Do you mean for your strategy to work only during Bonestorm? Because Smoke Bomb is not intended to prevent targeting when in melee range, so unless you have everybody move out of melee range and into the Smoke Bomb (which is an overall DPS loss), you will still be in melee range of the boss, and thus, the Smoke Bomb would not make you immune.

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Did you even read what I typed?

Marrowgar: He *can not* spike tanks, thus the cloud prevents all spikes, not just confines them to melee.

LDW: The adds are not the ones casting the MC, LDW herself is, and as far as I know she can't move during P1, thus potentially no MC is cast at all.

Saurfang: No, he does not always mark melee. He marks a random raid member, tanks included, and by putting your whole raid (other than tanks) under smoke, you force the mark to get put on a tank, which is a pretty big advantage for any guild still struggling with normal mode or working on hard mode.

Princes: The effect that the empowered vortex produces is an aoe effect, but the application of each "debuff" so to say on each player which produces the aoe effect is a single target ability. That's like saying mages will be able to living bomb a rogue under smoke, I highly doubt this. Just like empowered vortex, LB is a single target spell which eventually produces an aoe effect.

I don't mean to pick nits over somewhat tiny perks, but you seemed to have misunderstood every single bullet on the list, and I agree, these aren't huge perks to any guild that farms normal modes, but I'm more thinking of guilds on working on hard modes or guilds struggling on normals. Likewise, my original intent was not to entail all of the overpowered applications, I was just giving a brief list (emphasis on brief, many more applications exist) of why I believe boss abilities are going to ignore this mechanic entirely.

Marrowgar + Saurfang: I submit that you're misinterpreting the ability. Smoke Bomb does not prevent all targeted abilities; it merely prevents them from being cast at range. So an ability - like Bone Spike, Mark of the Fallen Champion, and so forth - can still be cast on melee even if there's a smoke bomb there. So if you want to use Smoke Bomb to prevent those abilities from being cast at all (or on non-tanks), you can't have *anyone* in melee range of the boss, in a smoke bomb or otherwise. Hence, if you just naively smoke bomb the range on Saurfang... he'll just Mark melee. Hence, unless you're proposing that all the melee run out for every cast - which is probably bad for other reasons - all Smoke Bomb would accomplish would be to force the abilities onto melee.

As for Blood Princes: he doesn't individually target every person in the raid for Empowered Vortex; he automatically afflicts everyone within some range of him. Read the spell - it affects *all* nearby enemies. Hence, Fog Cloud - which does not protect you from AoE abilities - will not protect you from affected by Empowered Shock Vortex any more than it protects you from, say, Fire Nova or Fan of Knives. The difference with Living Bomb is that you still need to target the person to trigger it, which would of course not be possible.

Deathwhisper - okay, so I was confused. Though I'd be interested to see testing that demonstrates the ability is even LoS-able in the first place.

In summary: I actually understood exactly what you're asserting, I just think you're wrong. And you think I'm wrong. Which is fine. But please try not to be so accusatory in rude in your disagreements - contrary to popular belief, I'm not a total idiot who spouts off responses without even reading what I'm applying to. I did read what you said, and I actually made an effort to understand it, I just disagree with your conclusions based on, you know, reading the abilities and thinking through the implications.

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@ Skul & Ald: I don't mean to imply I'm trying to somehow "break PvE" and I know it's silly to think about trading 5 seconds of dps time to get everyone in a certain spot for a chance to "aim" a boss spell, but I'm imagining groups that aren't completely farmed out. I mean, we just got our first put-25 kill two weeks ago, we aren't as good in 25s as we are in 10s by any means. And yes, I realize that bosses that are inside the smoke will still see players also inside, any time I referenced a smoke cloud, it was under the assumption that the rogue would run out of melee range, then place it, and all applicable people could then head inside. Again, it seems sort of silly to trade many seconds of raid dps for these benefits, but when you're working on heroic saurfang, getting a tank marked over anyone else is a massive advantage, and I'm sure any group still working on him would gladly trade 5 seconds of dps time for this guarantee.

On what will and won't hit people under a smoke bomb, obviously neither of can can say for sure yet, but my interpretation of "only aoe spelling hitting" was a completely non-targeted area-aoe spell. I'm thinking blizzard, DnD, RoF, Volley, etc. When I imagine someone applying multiple things to single targets, that spell just as easily could have had that TargetCounter variable set to 1 to hit a single person. I don't see spells of that nature applying inside a smoke. I can't think of any player spells off-hand that mimic this sort of thing, but if there were, I would still not expect them to work in smoke. Again, it's pretty pointless to speculate, but that was my impression of the info given thus far.

Edit: Guess I should have read RandomOne's post before typing. I agree with the trend you're seeing here. A lot of the rogues that liked the preview seemed to be the ones that were still leveling or alts (or pvpers obviously), and a majority of the ones that didn't like the preview were the hardcore pve rogues. I think Ald put it well when he said the changes were sort of dependant on where you thought the class was on the whole, and I agree there wasn't much that I wanted from my preview from a pve perspective. The first and almost only thing that I really would have liked was trainable shadowstep, which has pvp balance issues. I guess my only concern is that Mut rogues will still be hitting mut, mut, env while combat rogues will be hitting SSx5, evis up at 85. There is still plenty of room for our gameplay to change, just not within the new abilities it seems.

Ok, I re-read your responses Ald and I get what you're saying now. You thought that I thought that smoking in melee would prevent melee applications, and thus corrected my list based on that. I guess it's my fault that I didn't specify the rougue would always be running out to smoke away from the boss (otherwise it would be pointless, like you asserted). I didn't mean to be so snarky, but it just seemed like you misread every single point, but I get what happened now. Sorry for that.

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The problem is that the preview may be badly phrased. Consider this:

Smoke Bomb (level 85): The rogue drops a Smoke Bomb, creating a cloud that interferes with enemy targeting. Enemies who are outside the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud with single-target abilities. Enemies can move inside the cloud to attack, or they can use area-of-effect (AoE) abilities at any time to attack opponents in a cloud.

It talks about losing your target. That means the discussion above about melee only getting spiked on Marrowgar or marked on Saurfang makes sense: the boss can't target ranged players, therefore the melee gets it.

But then it says this:

In PvE, Smoke Cloud can serve to shield your group from hostile ranged attacks, while also drawing enemies closer without the need to rely on conventional line-of-sight obstructions.

When LoS'ing a mob, they don't lose their target. They simply have to run closer to be in line of sight of you again and keep beating on you. I'm not aware of any way to force a mob to drop its target in the game at this time (if I forgot one, do tell), except for abilities that affect threat, such as Vanish. That's why some people were initially assuming this new ability would affect threat.

So if it doesn't affect threat, we have a new mechanic that combines LoS and detargeting. And I suspect we don't really know how existing bosses will react to that, because it's never happened before.

Either that, or the preview is badly written.

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For the PvP aspect of smoke bomb, I'm curious if the "interferes with enemy targeting" would apply to enemies outside trying to heal people inside the bomb. It would essentially open up very powerful options for bursting non-healers and/or forcing healers to move from safe locations in arena/battlegrounds, given the area is not miniscule. If that will be the case, then the long-ish cooldown is quite fitting, albeit too long for anything but an emergency button in PvE.

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Ghostcrawler explained how Smoke Bomb is supposed to work (in the Hunter thread of all places). There's still quite a bit of missing info here but I don't think rogues are alone in that.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cataclysm Class Preview: Hunter

If you target a camo hunter or a rogue using Smoke Bomb, you will get an error message saying something like "Target obscured." You can see them and target them, but can't use your attacks. Imagine they are behind a pillar or something. You can try and get off an AE near them or you can move to melee.

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It talks about losing your target.

Your quoted line doesn't mention losing your target. It simply says the smoke will create a LoS obstacle.

Edit:

Enemies who are outside the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud with single-target abilities.
both bolded parts are important

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Your quoted line doesn't mention losing your target. It simply says the smoke will create a LoS obstacle.

Re-read it. There are 2 quotes. The key part my comment referred to is:

Enemies who are outside the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud

The LoS was the second quote, which kinda contradicted this losing-target thing.

Combine that with the post Tinwhisker quoted and we find that the preview was indeed badly phrased. It's not that mobs lose their target, contrary to what it says, it's that they can't use their single-target abilities, but maintain the current target.

So to use one of the examples above, on Marrowgar, if everyone but the tanks is in a Smoke Bomb and outside of melee range, 2 possible things can happen: 1) Marrowgar runs into the Smoke Bomb to spike people, while still maintaining threat on the tank and running back to him afterwards; 2) Specific boss abilities such as Bone Spike will simply ignore abilities like Smoke Bomb. My money's on 2) and if you haven't noticed, you can be Bone Spike'd during Killing Spree already, even though you're untargetable during KS.

All this to say... don't expect to use Smoke Bomb often on boss fights. Blizzard will make damn sure we can't cheat basic encounter mechanics such as Bone Spike with Smoke Bombs.

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Why is everyone trying to find use of a new ability (smoke bomb) in the current content and "blowing it off" as useless? How do you know it wont be of very good use in new encounters with unseen mechanics?

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Why is everyone trying to find use of a new ability (smoke bomb) in the current content and "blowing it off" as useless? How do you know it wont be of very good use in new encounters with unseen mechanics?

I'm sure the ability will have its place in pvp and pve trash, but with the info we have and the way it's currently described, it's just way too good to be usable on boss fights (or rather on boss attacks, I'm sure it will be useful on some boss adds). Just think of all the super big dangerous tank hits that bosses have done, currently do, and surely will continue to do in raids to come. I'm thinking things like sarth breaths, the big one-time hits that you essentially need a CD up for (mimiron's blast, LKs reaper, etc). Even if not all of these could be prevented, and even if the positioning was fairly difficult to achieve (tank inside smoke, boss outside smoke), if this could prevent even the occasional boss's "big hit" it would just be too good to give to a single class. Imagine how terrible all the other tanks would feel if pallies could use their full immunity bubble while tanking and not lose agro. That's roughly what this does (or *could* do).

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...Just think of all the super big dangerous tank hits that bosses have done, currently do, and surely will continue to do in raids to come...

All of those abilities that you listed wouldn't be hampered by Smoke Bomb because they are either a) Conal abilities that have no 'target', b) are "on-next-swing" abilities and are melee, or c) on your highest threat target, which is where you want them to be. In any case, there is little use contemplating how it can affect current end-game fights, because by the time we'll have the ability to actually use the new mechanic, everything will be farmed to death already, or the mechanic is going to be drastically different than it is now.

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