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Narcosleepy

Cataclysm Rogue Changes

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Its worth noting that the new metagem requirements for the 3% crit gems make them basically unusable - agility is just way too important to mass socket away from it in favor of hit.

It feels like you're dismissing the Chaotic meta gems too easily. You do lose a significant amount of agility, but the 3% crit increase does provide a very significant performance increase. I don't have a good handle on the details of rogue mechanics at 85, but your rating comparison looks very similar to what casters have (agi/int switched) and a 3% crit meta is the pick for some specs at least.

If you had 33% crit with 200% crit damage, your total crit damage would be 50% and the 3% meta would be a 1.5% DPS increase. For Assasination, Mutilate/Backstab have a much higher crit multiplier and increased crit rate, while poisons (specialisation) have a lower crit rate and deal less crit damage. Still, a 1.5% DPS increase from the 3% effect seems like a decent estimate. Let's assume you have 14k AP, a 462 DPS weapon "adds" 6400 AP, "totaling" 20k AP/EP. This means a 1.5% DPS increase is ~300 EP (approximately; poisons/finishers scale with their own base). A T11 gear set has ~10 sockets, you gemming for a 3% crit meta makes you trade 200 agility for 200 rating (assuming ratings are fungible through reforging). Even if you manage to cap expertise and spell hit, your next best choice is haste rating, meaning you lose 200*(2.6-1.2) = 280 EP. That loss is pretty close to the expected gains, not including socket bonuses (gem 1 green into yellow, pair green/red into yellow/red, purple into remaining red/blue; if any yellow sockets remain: yellow+bonus or purple+ignore).

The above uses a lot of estimates, but I think you we're selling the 3% crit meta short. The regemming hurts a lot, but the effect itself is very significant and none of the alternatives are enticing either. (The post in my signature has some thoughts about metas for mages, but most of it is pretty universal).

[Edit]: There is also the 5% all crit buff and the 5% spell crit debuff. And crit depression. And white misses increasing the relative contribution of crits. And Other Exciting Game Mechanics TM (Glancing Blows still in?). Even at 25% crit rate, 200% crit damage, you'd have 40% crit damage and CSD would be a 1.2% increase, or ~240 EP. Bending over backwards just to activate a meta gem is annoying, but you cannot repudiate it on that basis alone. The only point I was trying to make is that the gain from the meta and the loss from the gemming are seemingly in similar leagues, which was not at all apparent when reading the last two pages.

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Well, the numbers you gave are really far from what we can currently see on Cataclysm beta. As an example, with a 85 premade rogue after having gemmed as much agility as I could I reach about 20% physical crit and I currently am at 7,2% poison crit.

The +3% crit damage is far below +1.5% dps right now, and the fact is, the less you gem agility, the more you weaken the +3% crit damage effect, so with a "crit meta oriented" gemming you lose even more benefit from the meta itself.

That meta could be worth it in a few tiers, when base crit and hit Ep value both are higher, but I feel like we are pretty far from that case right now.

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That meta could be worth it in a few tiers, when base crit and hit Ep value both are higher, but I feel like we are pretty far from that case right now.

It’s possible we may never get to that point since bosses in future tiers will be harder to crit as they scale. It’s probably also worth noting that if our secondary stats retain their relative value with each other at 85, that we will be likely reforging crit out of our gear devaluing the meta further.

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It feels like you're dismissing the Chaotic meta gems too easily. You do lose a significant amount of agility, but the 3% crit increase does provide a very significant performance increase. I don't have a good handle on the details of rogue mechanics at 85, but your rating comparison looks very similar to what casters have (agi/int switched) and a 3% crit meta is the pick for some specs at least.

If you had 33% crit with 200% crit damage, your total crit damage would be 50% and the 3% meta would be a 1.5% DPS increase. For Assasination, Mutilate/Backstab have a much higher crit multiplier and increased crit rate, while poisons (specialisation) have a lower crit rate and deal less crit damage. Still, a 1.5% DPS increase from the 3% effect seems like a decent estimate. Let's assume you have 14k AP, a 462 DPS weapon "adds" 6400 AP, "totaling" 20k AP/EP. This means a 1.5% DPS increase is ~300 EP (approximately; poisons/finishers scale with their own base). A T11 gear set has ~10 sockets, you gemming for a 3% crit meta makes you trade 200 agility for 200 rating (assuming ratings are fungible through reforging). Even if you manage to cap expertise and spell hit, your next best choice is haste rating, meaning you lose 200*(2.6-1.2) = 280 EP. That loss is pretty close to the expected gains, not including socket bonuses (gem 1 green into yellow, pair green/red into yellow/red, purple into remaining red/blue; if any yellow sockets remain: yellow+bonus or purple+ignore).

The above uses a lot of estimates, but I think you we're selling the 3% crit meta short. The regemming hurts a lot, but the effect itself is very significant and none of the alternatives are enticing either. (The post in my signature has some thoughts about metas for mages, but most of it is pretty universal).

[Edit]: There is also the 5% all crit buff and the 5% spell crit debuff. And crit depression. And white misses increasing the relative contribution of crits. And Other Exciting Game Mechanics TM (Glancing Blows still in?). Even at 25% crit rate, 200% crit damage, you'd have 40% crit damage and CSD would be a 1.2% increase, or ~240 EP. Bending over backwards just to activate a meta gem is annoying, but you cannot repudiate it on that basis alone. The only point I was trying to make is that the gain from the meta and the loss from the gemming are seemingly in similar leagues, which was not at all apparent when reading the last two pages.

Can we assume that maybe, just maybe, I'm dismissing it because I actually ran the numbers on it in ShadowCraft and stated my conclusions based on its performance in that tool and *not* as a knee-jerk reaction? I realize its a preposterous notion, but lets go with it for the moment.

A major thing you're forgetting is that as an assassination rogue roughly half your damage comes from sources that crit at 1.5x instead of 2x, and the crit rate on those attacks is usually in the 10-15% neighborhood. Hence, fully half your damage doesn't gain 1.5% or even 1.2% benefit - it gains, like, .6% benefit. Which decidedly drags down the benefit of the metagem. When the announcement first came out the best known gear was the premades with heroic 5man blues, and in that gear the numbers worked out such that it was marginal if you had to trade out even 60 agility for hit to activate it. Which is, as they say, useless.

Now, the model has improved somewhat since then which has likely affected the numbers, and because the metagem scales quite well with gear that assessment has changed to some extent - by BIS T11 it appears to be roughly a wash - that is, the DPS you gain from the metagem almost covers all the DPS you lose activating it. For some people it might even be worth doing. So as we move into T12 and beyond - sure, maybe. And the situation might be better for the other specs (who get less of their damage from poisons). But there's also a significant section of time when the metagem is, in fact, useless, and that's worth keeping in mind as well.

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My apologies as regards the RED. I can't access anything tagged "gaming" from work, and so I don't normally speculate on gearing, etc., but I didn't expect that RED's requirements would deactivate it when Cata goes live. The +15% stun resist gems from BC stayed that way until 4.0, even though LK gems only had 10%- if you were actually interested in stun reduction, they were better until a few weeks ago. I assumed we might see a similarly mirrored situation, but presumably this time they are on top of it.

The crit metagem may maintain utility in pvp, where gemming in a way considered suboptimal can still yield other (generally less favored) benefits, and resilience can be very well thought of, depending on what you are trying to do. Right now the lack of a blue pve stat comparable to agility combined with really terrible chance-to-critical apparently means we can't use the 3% crit damage boost.

Aldriana has pointed out that while ratings are being devalued by about 4x, pure "punch" stats, such as Strength, AP, Agility, Intellect, are devaluing by closer to 2x. Since gemming options are increasing by 2x, a 40 Agility gem will be worth moderately close to what a 20 Agility gem is nowadays, whilst a 40 Hit Rating gem would be closer to what a 10 Hit Rating gem is now- it's pretty shocking to think that you would likely get more dps by filling a gray belt gem with an LK rare agility gem instead of a Cata rare hit rating gem, but there you have it.

The entire thing with the stats is that they all multiply. If you hit with a mainhand white swing, that hit does more damage with extra AP, is more likely to deal double damage with crit rating, is more likely to connect with hit rating, is more likely to connect up to a point with expertise rating, and happens more frequently with haste rating. It procs a poison at a constant rate (constant for your weapon speed and spec, and sometimes just your spec), but that poison is more likely to connect up to a point with hit rating, is more likely to get a baby-crit with crit rating, as well. If you are combat, that swing might be able to proc an offhand depending on mastery, and if you are assassination that poison will do more damage should it hit. We end up multiplying a bunch of stuff together such that we scale geometrically with a great deal of variables, with a general goal of all of them increasing being better than a single one increasing, a very pleasing function. The side effect of ratings being devalued is that they all quickly devalue, and this why we're seeing posts saying that things will be better at the end of T11, or that they will balance out by the end of the expac- the downside of the "multiply stuff together" function is that it responds very quickly to tweaks, swinging up or down depending.

However, I don't see what Blizzard said as their overarching dev goal for gearing being close to true at all: we will still ultimately consult a spreadsheet to determine how we gem, what we wear, and, now, what horrible stat we universally reforge away, what mediocre stat is the second most likely, and which two stats to reforge into. The difference is that now, without that spreadsheet, our gearing errors will be wildly exaggerated. If you had asked me, intuitively, if expertise was worth getting over agility until the cap, I would have said, sure, I assume so. Because that's been the stated dev design goal of the stat in the past!

Basically, I won't feel comfortable gearing for pve, not even remotely, until the community does its work and produces an optimizing simulator that handles the ludicrous messiness of reforging. In the past, without access to a spreadsheet, I've come very close to optimal just based on assumptions- I don't feel able to do that at all any more, and I am very grateful that the simulation community is coming together to solve this newly minted puzzle.

It's also possible it will become more intuitive with experience. The take away we have right now is "agility over all", and that it dominates other choices significantly.

In addition to adding to our workload, reforging will likely ensure that, as in the past, we need two entirely separate sets to be able to play two pve dps specs, and will add this as a new feature to holy/disc priests, mages, warlocks, and possibly hunters, who have had a lot more gear overlap in the past (aka, when these classes have multiple viable specs, they will frequently share BiS pieces- post reforging, this may be true, but they will likely reforge them differently for each spec). I've been assuming that's intended, but who knows.

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As for Meta gem discussion (and I may be missing something here) wouldn't it be worth using [iTEM]41400[/iTEM]? This is also a question for post-4.0.3a, as the Meta gem change is on PTR right now, meaning it will go live next week when the patch is expected to happen. On PTR right now, the gem's requirement is unchanged.

The proc is 480 haste for 6 seconds (people are saying a 45 second ICD, but not confirmed), which to me looks a lot better than the 54 (21 for the 80 version) crit you get from the 85 meta.

I havn't found a level 85 version, so I'm guessing there isn't one - but would the proc outweigh 54 crit?

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I havn't found a level 85 version, so I'm guessing there isn't one - but would the proc outweigh 54 crit?

It comes out to be an average of 64 haste rating, quite a bit better then 54 crit rating and substantially better then 21 crit rating. However, it is my understanding this meta’s proc shares a cooldown with a good number of trinket procs and various haste effects. It would be a good idea to double check this to see if it’s still true and the nature of it.

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Besides, it might be possible that Thundering Skyflare Diamond's proc chance is reduced after level 80; like Crusader enchant after level 60.

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Crusader maintains the same PPM the last I checked: Crusader and Lifestealing simply scale downwards from level 60 such that they are poor enchants by 70 (the original goal of the nerf).

Icy Chill has the lowered proc chance you speak of, unless something changed.

In any event, these changes were announced loudly (and widely discussed) before they went live- it seems unlikely that a proc that comes up with "rating" would be subject to reduced PPM. Normally that's reserved for level-invariant effects such as slow, silence, % haste, %hit, %crit, etc.

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...Rogues, on the other hand, have plenty of time to reply, so the only loss is the 20% energy cost for more strikes and the full energy cost for finishing moves, which turns out to be...

Off topic, but wasn't this changed in 4.0.1? I mostly Pvp, and I noticed that ever since patch when my kidney shots/envenoms/eviscerates are dodged or parried I only lose about 10 energy, instead of the full cost like I used to lose in 3.3. I noticed this because I used to never use a finisher on an evasioning rogue because I would lose all the energy, but now I just spam eviscerates/envenoms until they hit and my energy bar stays the same.

For a gear set that is plausibly BIS up through T11 Heroic, with a very rough cycle model but everything except the 4/5 T11 set bonus modeled, these are the EP values I get for Assassination at level 85:

[table=head]Stat|EP

Agi|2.60

Yellow Hit|2.00

Spell Hit|1.46

Expertise|1.32

Haste|1.21

Mastery|1.12

Crit|0.89

White Hit|0.78[/table]

Hence, with the exception of agility bonuses that require matching 2+ sockets, socketing straight agi seems to be the way to go. Then you reforge to the hit and expertise caps, and by BIS if you're lucky you might get to think about reforging for a bit of haste as well.

The model still needs some refinement, so this might change a little, but this seems to be the ballpark we're talking about for Assassination.

2 Things. First, does that value for mastery include the buff on beta servers that makes it 3.5% per point? Just asking because in the 4.0.1 rogue FAQ the values you gave @ level 80 with the buffed mastery had mastery only barely behind agility, and noticably better than haste.

Second, would expertise be less valuable when you consider that dodging finishers doesn't cause you to lose all the energy cost anymore?

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2 Things. First, does that value for mastery include the buff on beta servers that makes it 3.5% per point? Just asking because in the 4.0.1 rogue FAQ the values you gave @ level 80 with the buffed mastery had mastery only barely behind agility, and noticably better than haste.

4.0.1 values are EP values regarding a BiS lvl 80 gear. Which means a gear with lots and lots of haste/agi but no mastery on it.

Mastery is like our other stats, the more you stack one stat, the more the other stats get boosted. So the only piece of information 4.0.1 Ep values give you is that when you have lots of haste/agi and no mastery then mastery has a pretty high EP. It has never been a proof mastery would be such a good stat when you have got a ridiculously low amount of haste/agi on your gear like it is with t11 stuff.

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It comes out to be an average of 64 haste rating, quite a bit better then 54 crit rating and substantially better then 21 crit rating. However, it is my understanding this meta’s proc shares a cooldown with a good number of trinket procs and various haste effects. It would be a good idea to double check this to see if it’s still true and the nature of it.
From testing on the PTR with my rogue and druid, it appears the meta does not share a cooldown with [iTEM]50342[/iTEM], [item]44253[/item], [item]47303[/item], [item]50402[/item], [item]40684[/item], or [item]47214[/item], with the proc from the meta either having been up at the same time as the proc from the trinket/ring, or in the case of the last two trinkets, with the trinket proc going up within 10 seconds of the proc from the meta appearing. The testing is fairly limited, but these were the only proc trinkets I had available.

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WARNING: I am going to post actual numbers in this post. Please note that these are still only estimates, and still may contain bugs. Use them at your own risk.

For a gear set that is plausibly BIS up through T11 Heroic, with a very rough cycle model but everything except the 4/5 T11 set bonus modeled, these are the EP values I get for Assassination at level 85:

[table=head]Stat|EP

Agi|2.60

Yellow Hit|2.00

Spell Hit|1.46

Expertise|1.32

Haste|1.21

Mastery|1.12

Crit|0.89

White Hit|0.78[/table]

When iam not wrong you used 940dps test weapons from the beta, the t11 heroic weapons will have 521.8

test_mh = stats.Weapon(939.5, 1.8, 'dagger', 'landslide')

test_oh = stats.Weapon(730.5, 1.4, 'dagger', 'landslide')

This are atleast the values i got with BIS Heroic with your Shadowcraft Engine and 522 dps weapons

[table=head]Stat|EP

Agi|2.57

Yellow Hit|1.93

Spell Hit|1.42

Expertise|1.25

Haste|1.14

Mastery|1.2

Crit|0.83

White Hit|0.74[/table]

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    def __init__(self, damage, speed, weapon_type, enchant=None):

        self.speed = speed

        self.weapon_dps = damage/speed

That is: the number being passed in is not the DPS, but the average damage dealt by the weapon - hence, the weapons in question are doing 939.5 / 1.8 = 521.94 and 730.5 / 1.4 = 521.79 damage, respectively. Thus the numbers I posted are correct.

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Second, would expertise be less valuable when you consider that dodging finishers doesn't cause you to lose all the energy cost anymore?

If expertise only applied to Finishing Moves that might be the case, but it also applies to white hits and mostly all dps except poisons. Expertise should still be capped because dodges can cause a chain reaction of lost combo points and proc downtime that will cause substantial dps loss.

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You're spot on, but it's worth noting that expertise affects poison dps as well. A dodged hit cannot proc a poison and as all poisons are a % chance to proc you're losing dps that you won't get back. Most people will probably say "well duh" but it has a lot to do with the value of expertise; hit, on the other hand, only applies to 100% of your dps until you hit the special cap at which point its value drops significantly.

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You're spot on, but it's worth noting that expertise affects poison dps as well. A dodged hit cannot proc a poison and as all poisons are a % chance to proc you're losing dps that you won't get back. Most people will probably say "well duh" but it has a lot to do with the value of expertise; hit, on the other hand, only applies to 100% of your dps until you hit the special cap at which point its value drops significantly.

Pretty sure poisons have a chance to proc regardless of the white hit being successful. I'll do some testing later today to confirm/deny that though.

Finally got around to doing that testing, and yeah, I was wrong. Two half-hour parses, one only barely spell hit capped, and one white hit capped proved it. 50% proc rate using wound poison with a 1.4 speed weapon on both white hit capped and spell hit capped counting only successful white hits, 43%~ on spell hit capped counting missed hits.

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Pretty sure poisons have a chance to proc regardless of the white hit being successful. I'll do some testing later today to confirm/deny that though.

From a purely logical standpoint this makes no sense.

The poison is applied to your weapon. In order to get the poison to the target you have to hit them with your weapon.

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1) So far as I know attacks have to hit to proc poisons. If that's changed, it would be good to know, but it would shock me if that were the case.

2) I'd also like to see someone confirm that energy returns from dodged finishers has changed. I haven't noticed, but I haven't really had a chance to test. So before we start working through the implications of this "change", it would be good to verify whether the "change" does, in fact, exist.

3) If the mechanics have changed, it would make Expertise somewhat less valuable. Not necessarily a *lot* less valuable, mind you, but less valuable. Whether it is or would be worth maxing is a function of relative EP weights and gear availability - note the very high value of agility means its usually not worth gemming for expertise, hence its presumably only worth doing if you can get it via reforging. And its only worth getting via reforging if there aren't better stats available that can be reforged to.

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I do not currently have a screen shot (the capture timing is very difficult), but testing completely naked minus a vendor sword and untalented, I observed a 1pt eviscerate being dodged and my energy only drop to roughly 90/100 instead of 65/100.

I can note, however, that it is not a reported energy gain, as it did not show up in my combat log or recount.

edit: while still not perfect due, you can see that I'm sitting at 95 energy immediately following a dodged Eviscerate. I did not notice the missed finisher costing me any energy whatsoever.

311um1i.jpg

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When they readjusted the talent quick recovery in the talent trees (assas) and created quickening instead, did they make the dodged finisher-energy cost standard baseline? I can find any written record of this but it would appear this is the current mechanic?

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Well, reading all post talking about professions, i have a noob question, How much pure dps we gain giving JC/ENG instead Mining/ENG?, talking in pure dps not in EP. From my ignorance I dont know how to do the conversion fro EP to real DPS, I did in the suposse we have T11 and BiS, but i failed in all trys.

Thanks you all for the help guys, and sorry my horrible english.

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Well, reading all post talking about professions, i have a noob question, How much pure dps we gain giving JC/ENG instead Mining/ENG?, talking in pure dps not in EP. From my ignorance I dont know how to do the conversion fro EP to real DPS, I did in the suposse we have T11 and BiS, but i failed in all trys.

Thanks you all for the help guys, and sorry my horrible english.

In general, any of the +80 Agi professions can be estimated to be somewhere between 200 and 250 DPS. Historically, EP: DPS has been in the ballpark of a 1:1 conversion, give or take some decimals on either side, but this varies with gear, buffs, and other factors.

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