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norg

DKP and cross-class parity

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We are going to have separate DKP installs for each and every instance. I tried to think of everything that could arise from that and how to counter it.

If classes with 1 armor set stop running instances when they get theirs, then they just won't get a spot on the next instance.

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Bidding isn't a cure-all no, but I don't see a fixed price system with spiralling complexity being a great solution either compared to how simple bidding is.

I do not think that debating the merits of bidding vs fixed point system is a good idea, because it will end up on the same level as Mac vs PC or ATI vs nVidia debates. Kalman's dislike of bidding systems is well established in prior threads on this forum.

So the more interesting question, the one where we can actually make progress and thus the one we should be focusing on is how much loot a hyrbid should get compared to a pure class. Should it be <number of specs> times as much loot or should it be the same loot.

EDIT: Further, with the acceleration of loot turnover that is happening, the by far most important quality of a good DKP system is ease of administration. That was not the case when people ran MC for 18+ months, but with annual expansions, some slight mispricing is less important than the GM being burned out from spending an hour each night updating DKP.

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For a serious progressing guild, I'd really encourage picking either dps or prot. Having half a set of tanking gear and half a set of dps gear really doesn't do your guild very good when the fights involve min/maxing. You won't keep up on damage with other classes and you won't be able to be a primary tank.

Also, I don't think Kalman is saying bidding is a "bad" system, he's just pointing out that having fully fluctuating values for all items based on their demand is not a solution to the problem that's been brought up. For instance, rogues and warriors are bidding on the same mh/oh/gun, so they all spend about the same amount on those 3 slots bid or no bid, however a warrior will always need to pick up a shield at some point, and if he has to bid against the tanks for that, he's SoL for trying to help the guild and fulfill his role in a raid.

Edit; To the poster above:

So the more interesting question, the one where we can actually make progress and thus the one we should be focusing on is how much loot a hyrbid should get compared to a pure class. Should it be <number of specs> times as much loot or should it be the same loot.

How do you classify people though? Warriors have 2 viable roles in raids, so if you cut the price of all items they take in half... whats stopping a warrior from going picking a spec and getting their full set at half the price of a rogue? Half price also means twice as fast, so you'd be looking at a warrior with a full set of gear at the same time as a rogue with half a set, given equal attendance.

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Fair enough, I'll shut up. Reading the initial post I should have caught on that the thread was aimed at fixed bid systems specifically.

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If a warrior commits to be a pure tank and never takes any DPS loot in your system, what is he going to do when he is called upon to dps? This isn't players wanting tons of loot for their e-peen, they NEED it to do their job in the raid.

At the risk of continuing the derail: the warriors all have DPS (and Tanking) gear from older instances to fill in short-term holes in their kit. Particular to our guild, we've only ever had 2 warriors who commit to pure tanking, and they are admittedly fairly useless in a fight we don't need 2 tanks. One or the other will always be tanking though, I don't think we've run into any fights where not even a single warrior tank was useful. The rest all spread their points in various distributions between tanking and DPS gear depending on what pieces they needed to upgrade the most.

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We're doing what Kalman noted earlier. The player chooses their primary path ie. tanking for warriors or enhancement for shamans. For the warrior they pay nothing for their non-primary path gear but only once the warriors that have it as their primary path already have the gear in question.

Some classes will obviously be recieving more overall loot than others but it shouldn't be a big issue.

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And if you don't want to commit to being a full tank or a full DPS, I suppose there needs to be a 3rd set of prices to accommodate your own itemization desires (or you're told you need to pick one or the other)?

It's not about what you think you are. It's about what you do. No third set of prices is necessary; there is only one price on an item. If it's your role, you pay that price. If it isn't your role, you either pay a fixed small price (e.g. 5 DKP in a system where typically items range from 100-250 DKP) or nothing at all.

And here's the other point: I don't give a shit if you want to be Resto Bob, Feral McGee, or somewhere in between; if you are primarily healing in a raid, you need to pay healing prices. If you're mostly in cat/bear, you pay cat/bear prices. If you are tanking 90% of the time as a warrior, you pay tank prices. If you are DPSing 90% of the time as a warrior, you pay DPS prices. If you're DPSing 90% of the time and think of yourself as a tank, you have a self-image problem; your problem is not my problem. My problem is how do I account for most efficiently gearing you to be able to perform your primary and secondary roles without making anyone unhappy about it.

(In addition, this is NOT a discussion on spec; you can be feral-specced and still be an effective healer, and indeed you may still primarily be healing. As such, you need to pay full on healing gear, and get your off-role gear at reduced prices. This is to prevent something like a druid who primarily heals saying "OMG I am feral", taking healing loot at reduced price, which will cause resentment amongst other people who are doing the same thing he is, but don't have the option of reduced price on minor upgrades. Yes, this situation has come up.)

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If a warrior commits to be a pure tank and never takes any DPS loot in your system, what is he going to do when he is called upon to dps? This isn't players wanting tons of loot for their e-peen, they NEED it to do their job in the raid.

Depending on how many prot warriors you have, I'd have to say that this is probably going to be a pretty rare scenario in 25 mans. We went through the entirety of Naxx with 4 prot warriors, 3 of which were usually online and in the raid. I'm pretty sure thats more than most guilds, and there were very few fights in which they had to take off their tanking gear and put on dps gear. The only ones that come to mind off the top of my head are Loatheb and Sapphiron, one of required gear that was mostly crafted. That leaves Loatheb, a fight for which a prot warrior isn't of much use, geared or not they'd probably be replaced by another class before the boss is farm status.

In most cases its the other way around, dps warriors have to put on some tanking gear and pick up an add. In those cases, their gear usually isn't that big of a factor. The job can be done with gear that's outdated for those slots. Ie, BWL gear should be enough to offtank pretty much anything in Naxx. That can be compared to instance blues being good enough for offtanking the first tier of raid content released.

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How do you classify people though? Warriors have 2 viable roles in raids, so if you cut the price of all items they take in half... whats stopping a warrior from going picking a spec and getting their full set at half the price of a rogue? Half price also means twice as fast, so you'd be looking at a warrior with a full set of gear at the same time as a rogue with half a set, given equal attendance.

We are still working on the details of the system, but what I have in mind is something like this. Players classify themselves. There are 3 pools: DPS, tanking and heal. You decide how to split your DKP. For a resto druid with some DPS ambition it might be 70% heal 30% DPS.

Then we use bidding. Bidding helps this system immensely because one feature, good or bad, of a bidding sytem is that the lesser loot is typically disporportionally cheap. That is, an item that in a fixed point system might be only 10% cheaper could easily cost only a quarter of the points since the competition for lesser loot is typically minimal. That way, hybrids, even though they do not get discounts on their second set, effectively still get a good amount of loot for the off spec. They just do not get the best loot, and honestly (and please note the class in my profile) they should not.

The advantage of the system is that players are not pigeonholed like it happened a lot in the past. You classify yourself, and you also have to compete based on that. If you are a priest and put 80% of your points into DPS be prepared to compete with warlocks for raid spots. It also tells the guild how much of each role you have. In the past, there was a strong connection between class and role, but now that is not the case, so the guild needs to know how many healers they have, not how many priests/druids/pallies/shamans.

A player can change their point allocation, but only infrequently. There are some more wrinkles but they are beyond the scope here.

Another advantage of the system is that once I got off my ass and wrote some simple tools for it, a raid will take less than a minute to input. All you need to do is copy a file to a directory on the server and done. No manual processing will be required. As I said above, to me that is more important than getting every single facet of the system right.

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I like Kalman's thinking on the issue, I will be advocating a declared role with last-priority discounted off-role system. (But then again, I'm Feral McGee).

I liked a system a previous guild I managed used (that might be why I designed it), which was inflationary but zonal DKP. If something isn't working, there's effectively a reset every new raid zone anyway, so you can tinker with numbers to noone's lament (there's carry-over for populating the new zones for a few kills, so vets have some incentive, but can't lord over newer members new kill loot). Not directly related, but if people start finding a way to game whatever system you do come up with, "Hey, guys, we can fix this in [new-BWL], without disrupting the standings at the moment."

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At the risk of continuing the derail: the warriors all have DPS (and Tanking) gear from older instances to fill in short-term holes in their kit. Particular to our guild, we've only ever had 2 warriors who commit to pure tanking, and they are admittedly fairly useless in a fight we don't need 2 tanks. One or the other will always be tanking though, I don't think we've run into any fights where not even a single warrior tank was useful. The rest all spread their points in various distributions between tanking and DPS gear depending on what pieces they needed to upgrade the most.

This is a derail, but it's worth pointing out - protection warriors can dps now. Add in 10 talent points plus some very good dps talents in the later stages of the protection tree and they are no longer jonny useless when asked to kill something. I have the best thunderclap (13 rage, 20% slow), my execute costs 3 rage less than the MS-hybrid guy (so I will outdps him sub 20%), and I have the best damage per rage talent when I shift to an offensive stance. My dps set is going to maximize +crit and then some combo of +hit or +block (depending on whether you go dw or sword and board). It's not quite tanking gear, but I can grab +block or +hit tanking gear and that will help me dps. It isn't like wow 1.0 where I needed a hybrid spec or gear to actually prove my worth.

My point to the derail - I don't know if people really have to pick up 2 sets of gear if they're a warrior anymore. The same can be said of most other classes. If you establish that someone is specializing in a particular playstyle based on their talent selection, their gear selection should reinforce and leverage those talents. When you get down to it, the feral druid isn't making any better use of resto set gear than I am of dps plate. Getting the specialized hybrid classes another set of gear isn't critical to the raid's success.

What it does do, is add to the raid's flexibility. I can see some value in that, but you could also make the argument that you shouldn't be forcing people into suboptimal roles for the duration of an instance (for one or two fights, maybe a wing, sure). If it's farm content, then you can have the protection warrior take a night off and dps - but he doesn't need cutting edge gear to do it.

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If a warrior commits to be a pure tank and never takes any DPS loot in your system, what is he going to do when he is called upon to dps? This isn't players wanting tons of loot for their e-peen, they NEED it to do their job in the raid.

Personal experience shapes our opinions of this to a great degree. 9/10 of the warriors my guild has ever had have been rogue-wannbe lootwhores who wanted two huge piles of purps yet never wanted to actually tank anything. When raiding on my warrior alt I considered "needing" two sets of gear to be a privilege rather than a burden. So I don't see how rigging the system so hybrids get twice the loot for the same price is more "fair" or desirable in any way.

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Perhaps you should work on the problem of having a bunch of shitty warriors. Rather than screwing half the players in the guild who have more than 1 set of raiding loot.

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Perhaps you should work on the problem of having a bunch of shitty warriors. Rather than screwing half the players in the guild who have more than 1 set of raiding loot.

Are you suggesting that one can't engineer a DKP system that solves all of society's ails? Surely with the correct formulae we can summon Azathoth from beyond the Outer Wastes and rain down sufficent loot to appease everyone. I'm fairly sure that the first step is bringing a donkey to market.

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Perhaps you should work on the problem of having a bunch of shitty warriors. Rather than screwing half the players in the guild who have more than 1 set of raiding loot.

I've seen the worst extreme, a warrior who wanted to PvP, but was also the guild's main tank. Granted, he did have pretty good attendance, and he was a very good tank.

However, there's no reason for the MT to pick up the first: Untamed Blade, Drake Talon Spaulders, Breastplate of Annihilation, Master Dragonslayer's RING (DPS), Chromatically Tempered Sword (So he'd have an offhand for his thunderfury when he decided to be Fury instead of Prot while PvPing), Chromatic Boots, etc. while the mainly-DPS warriors were still using Arcanite Reapers and pre-Raid gear.

There definitely has to be at least some focus on what your main raiding role happens to be.

My last guild had a loot council. People would decide to put the gear where it was most warranted/useful, from a council of ~ 10 people.

This worked pretty damn well, but there was still a bit of veiled resentment at supposed favoritism. From what I can tell,there's really no good way to go about it other than setting up multiple DKP pools and working from there.

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I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

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Between cross-class issues and working out how to fit in Karazhan loot (it was bad enough last time with jealousy between people getting Leggings of the Black Blizzard etc for free vs those paying serious DKP to pick up equivalent in BWL), we've said screw it and gone to loot council.

A percentage split, besides considering the relative amounts of weaponry (and trinkets!) that different classes need should also consider whether damage/PVP gear (especially for pure healers and pure tanks) is included, or whether those classes have to pay extra compared to DPS classes to end up with both PvE and damage/PvP gear. I say damage/PvP because you never know when a PvE fight's going to come along when you want your priests to be able to do damage too...

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I really like the idea of just picking a spec and getting stuff in the other one/two at reduced price as long as no one with that spec goes after it. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the whole percentage split, since that just seems to be complementing something that would be best implemented in the keep it simple fashion.

I might bring that up to my guild, currently we are only looking at doing a zero sum for 25 mans with 3 bid levels. (low/med/high with associated point values).

The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

That will then again lead to healers being pigeonholed into only healing without any ability to do decent damage. How often have you heard senior holy priests complain that they could not get DPS gear because they were put even behind some new mage? And now imagine this much much worse because those guys will also be put behind new shadow priests that chose the DPS track. Under those conditions, who would chose the healer track?

The best way to avoid all that requires the healers to have some form of GUARANTEED DPS loot. Not just loot that nobody wants, because that will never be guaranteed with turnover and guilds quitting older dungeons. The only way to attain that is to give them some DKP that they can spend on DPS loot, even outbidding the actual DPSers. Just not too often.

That is the reason for the percentage split. Which btw is not all that hard to set up and administer.

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FWIW, I rather like Aphyrax's system as he describes it. Good amounts of personal freedom in indicating what specific loot is worth to you personally (as opposed to relying on the competence of officers in picking a value to represent an item's worth to everyone in the guild) but still strong pushes to send the gear to the people that will use it the most. And a nice bit of randomness in the sense of not knowing who will win what for how much (as opposed to "X Y and Z will win the next 3 DFTs for 120 points each").

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FWIW, I rather like Aphyrax's system as he describes it. Good amounts of personal freedom in indicating what specific loot is worth to you personally (as opposed to relying on the competence of officers in picking a value to represent an item's worth to everyone in the guild) but still strong pushes to send the gear to the people that will use it the most.

Thanks. It has a bunch of interesting side effects too. For example you can ask applicants to list their desired split. If someone tries to get in via the good old "I am a total healbot, I love healing and will do nothing but heal 24/7 if you only let me in" line then he better back that up with a 100/0/0 or at least 90/10/0 split. And he will be stuck with that split for a while so he cannot spec shadow next week and collect DPS loot.

Therefore, you can recruit much more accurately and it is also a convenient way to keep track of what exactly every member currently wants to do with their character.

It is also possible to apply the same principle to a fixed point system, but you might have to lower the cost for off-specs a little, otherwise they might not get enough loot to be viable in those situations that you need them.

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Aphyrax: How would you handle special cases for example "tank" loot for Warlocks in the case of Vek'lor. I doubt there would be many warlocks that would be giving more than 0% to their tanking DPS split.

Or resist gear in general.

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I did have an idea about a system where taking, say, 5 pieces of raid spec loot allowed you an option to take an off-spec item provided you had the DKP for priority and were willing to pay full price for it. Which would be similar to Aphyrax's percentage system if slightly more straightforward to understand and administer at the obvious expense of some personal flexibility.

You can always wait to get it for free when its uncontested but as a holy priest I am keen to avoid waiting 14 months to finally get a Choker of Enlightenment.

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The reason why the "when nobody wants it" method is problematic can easily be seen from the last 2 years of raiding. Simply put, there is not an awful lot of decent loot that nobody wants. How much DPS gear will a holy priest get if he has to wait for all mages, warlocks, moonkins, shadow priests and elemental shamans to get it first? Pretty much none that is worth anything.

Sorry to say, but the last two years of raiding aren't really pertinent to the discussion. Lower group sizes (10! and 25), not as large gaps in scaling mean that less people will be going for the same loot, and more loot will be pretty good even if it's not cutting edge.

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Sorry to say, but the last two years of raiding aren't really pertinent to the discussion. Lower group sizes (10! and 25), not as large gaps in scaling mean that less people will be going for the same loot, and more loot will be pretty good even if it's not cutting edge.

How so? A full naxx, or bwl, or aq40 clear netted you 2 set pieces for 40 people on a 7 day timer. Now you get 1 set piece for 25 people on a 7 day timer (Excepting tier4 gloves and helms). So your set loot is actually coming in slower.

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Which is a good thing IMO, I never liked how people obsessed over the sets when there was usually better non set options available. It seems most of the gear people will be getting from the new raids won't be of the class set variety.

While for some classes the bonuses weren't useful, for other classes the set bonuses were immensely nice and never ever worth breaking up. 3 piece trans etc comes to mind, and while it's often not noted, 5 piece trans was such a big thing for me, that to this day I'm still saddened at breaking it up.

But yes you're right; the new items all seem to favor a more piece by piece gearing of your character. Even the teir 4 and 5 sets are 5 piece only, which means you fill in the rest of the slots somewhere else. And in that case I'd consider that a dkp nightmare. Think Gloves of the Messiah type that all your resto druids/resto shamans/holy priests want because teir 4-5 has no gloves. But that's another issue entirely heh.

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