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Polar

GuildOx - Guild, Character and Loot Rankings

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But we're seeing on our own rankings a lot of strict-10 guilds who haven't killed LK, but are taking in a Kingslayer and knocking over easy heroics like Gunship, then picking up kill credits. Other guilds with a more strict approach are leaving heroics alone until Arthas is dead.

Obviously there won't be any difference between strict and non-strict guilds in Cataclysm, but I wondered if there's a stance on allowing credits for guilds who have bypassed the prerequisites. On the one hand they made a legitimate progression kill, but on the other they're somewhat cherry picking the easy fights out of order, either in 10s or 25s.

I get this comment from time to time and I am glad you have raised it.

At the moment, Blizzard allows this kind of approach to raiding, and looking at my server, it is pretty commonplace (it is happening across 25m, 10m and 10m-strict raiding). This is why I am not doing anything to hold guilds back - it is legal.

If I were to penalize guilds for doing heroics in ICC before formally killing the Lich King (which I am not proposing) then I suspect I would have some serious objections from many guilds.

What do the rest of you think?

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Did anyone raise an objection to counting Malygos if the guild hadn't killed Sapphiron or killing Algalon without all the keepers having been downed? I don't remember anyone saying anything, but I could be wrong.

I agree that for the time being that's probably not realistic to implement. If the rules were changed now there would be a lot of guilds that would have points taken off of their scores but it actually goes deeper than that. The gear that they got from the heroics would have given them an advantage in normal modes... the same advantage that 25man normal gear has over 10man normal. Following through to the logical conclusion, the next step would be to give all those guilds a big DQ. (Or if you want to get silly you just put them in "strict" and the guilds who followed progression become known as "strict-strict.")

Following strict pre-requisites isn't necessarily a bad thing but the rules for that have to be set before anyone sets foot in a raid instance. If this is on the table for Cataclysm then it needs to be decided before launch.

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Did anyone raise an objection to counting Malygos if the guild hadn't killed Sapphiron or killing Algalon without all the keepers having been downed? I don't remember anyone saying anything, but I could be wrong.

Well, I think Malygos was a different situation as he was clearly more difficult than his attunement boss Sapphiron. I recall there were many people upset with killing Algalon when Hodir HM required bug abuse, but that was also a different story.

This situation feels to me much more like the old attunement-removal days of TBC when guilds started skipping Kael and even Vashj in favor of plowing the easy fields at the start of BT/Hyjal. Certainly enough guilds went for it to be worth ranking, but it would be unfair to ignore the fact that they hadn't killed some previous bosses. So I would agree that it's best to continue counting heroic progress even if they lack an LK kill. As long as they're not getting credit for a boss they didn't kill, I see no problem.

In a system which weights different boss encounters, it's easier to sort out these situations. I quite understand why Guildox doesn't have them, but it is a drawback.

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The real issue here seems to be that the Gunship Battle Heroic is something that is much easier than killing the Lich King on normal mode. The other heroics are of equal difficulty or harder - meaning that if you can kill Marrowgar heroic then you should be able to kill the Lich King on normal (you see the data I am using at GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings)

Would this issue be less of a problem if I were to include "The Fall of the Lich King - normal" achievement in the progression score calculation - effectively giving an extra progress point to a lich king normal kill?

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Possibly. But I doubt anyone would object to simply not counting Gunship heroic as progression either.

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But I doubt anyone would object to simply not counting Gunship heroic as progression either.

This seems to be a good idea. I like the simplicity of it. Does anyone have an objections before I roll it out?

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People who are interested into ranking won't have any objection about it unless they are bypassing the system by taking a kingslayer to down some easy HC boss.

Most raiders are fair when it comes to ranking.

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OK so over the last few weeks our guild has been working on a few achievements. We done "many whelps handle it(25man)" and got realm first for it. then a few days after i was looking on guildox and noticed something was missing... the "realms recent guild achievements" block on the left hand side has vanished. i myself and a few other people i know quite like that feature and you get an idea what some of the top guilds are up to on different realms aswell. has this feature been removed fully or will it be making a come back anytime?

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OK so over the last few weeks our guild has been working on a few achievements. We done "many whelps handle it(25man)" and got realm first for it. then a few days after i was looking on guildox and noticed something was missing... the "realms recent guild achievements" block on the left hand side has vanished. i myself and a few other people i know quite like that feature and you get an idea what some of the top guilds are up to on different realms aswell. has this feature been removed fully or will it be making a come back anytime?

Well spotted. I have temporarily disabled this since it was becoming quite server intensive. I plan to bring it back very shortly - I just need to code up a more efficient method of generating and storing this data. Give me a week or two and it will be back.

Update: It is online again

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I am currently in a Strict 10 man guild that is looking at recruiting some more members. At this late stage of the expansion, finding members that suit our requirements and fit in with legislation, are few and far between. This has caused us to look at the future of 10 man strict and wonder how is it going to be monitored in Cataclysm. Is there going to be a 10 man strict ranking? If so, surely this niche area would have been opened up to a broader spectrum.

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I am currently in a Strict 10 man guild that is looking at recruiting some more members. At this late stage of the expansion, finding members that suit our requirements and fit in with legislation, are few and far between. This has caused us to look at the future of 10 man strict and wonder how is it going to be monitored in Cataclysm. Is there going to be a 10 man strict ranking? If so, surely this niche area would have been opened up to a broader spectrum.

At this stage, I am planning on removing the 10m strict rankings for Cataclysm. This is because the new cataclysm raiding will share loot tables across 10m and 25m raids, so I can no longer see a need to split out 10m strict.

Note that I might still deliver 10m ranking tables, but this depends entirely on what data Blizzard makes available in the wowarmory.

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Note that I might still deliver 10m ranking tables, but this depends entirely on what data Blizzard makes available in the wowarmory.

It should still be relatively easy to separate 10man and 25man raider guilds from player and guild achievements, at least for the initial kill of a boss since they share locks and the guild kill has member requirements, some date comparisons and counting should reveal the necessary info. Unfortunately though, this only works for the guilds first kill, if a guild gets the first 25man kill one week and the first 10man kill the next, there will be no way to give credit for the 10man kill (although the reverse may be true).

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Here is today's announcement, happy to take questions in this forum.

--------------

GuildOx will be undergoing some exciting changes in the coming weeks to prepare for the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.

  • 10m strict rankings are no longer required with the common loot pools of Cataclysm so these rankings will be removed on 1 Dec. The strict criteria and 10m strict checker will also be removed. If you are currently a 10m strict guild then your hard-earned 10m strict rank history will be shown on your guild's rank history chart for 9 months after the Cataclysm release.
  • A combined 25m/10m ranking table will be added on 7 Dec
  • I will continue to offer discrete 25m and 10m ranking tables
  • I will continue to offer progression and achievement ranking tables
  • WOTLK achievements and progression will be removed from the main database on 7 Dec
  • Cataclysm progression will be based on boss kills and we will be pulling time stamp data from the wowarmory activity feeds to get accurate first-kill results
  • The Toon Rank service will adjust the toon rankings to be for L85 characters only on 7 Dec
  • The Loot Rank service will begin to load the new Cataclysm loot on 1 Dec

This is an exciting time and I am confident that GuildOx will continue to offer the most accurate and easy to use ranking service on the market.

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Polar, I want to take a second to thank you for the wonderful service that you've provided through GuildOx. Ever since Wrath was released with a legitimate 10m-strict progression path, we've used GuildOx to monitor our progress. And, whether deliberate or not, it's been a wonderful validation of the small-raiding-guild community (whether we like to admit or not, many of us had a chip on our shoulders that GuildOx mitigated substantially).

In your last post you said that 10m-strict is going away for progression ranking (which makes sense). You also said in a previous post that depending on what information the Armory offers, that you may maintain "discrete 25m and 10m rankings." Would you be kind enough to disclose what information will make this possible, (or impossible, as the case may be), and how these "discrete...rankings" will be represented on the website if they are different from the 25m and current-10m-casual rankings? Specifically, if I'm to understand it in the context of your current rankings, 10m and 25m guilds will simply compete on a level playing field (from GuildOx's POV) for the boss kills; and that what will be tracked (beginning 7 Dec) is not the type of guild per se (i.e., previously between 10m-strict, 25m, and 10m-casual) but only the type of boss killed (i.e., 10m boss vs 25m boss). Is my understanding of the new system correct?

Again, thank you for the hard work and taking the time to consider my questions. I look forward to your answers and the changes to GuildOx come Cataclysm.

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You also said in a previous post that depending on what information the Armory offers, that you may maintain "discrete 25m and 10m rankings." Would you be kind enough to disclose what information will make this possible, (or impossible, as the case may be), and how these "discrete...rankings" will be represented on the website if they are different from the 25m and current-10m-casual rankings? Specifically, if I'm to understand it in the context of your current rankings, 10m and 25m guilds will simply compete on a level playing field (from GuildOx's POV) for the boss kills; and that what will be tracked (beginning 7 Dec) is not the type of guild per se (i.e., previously between 10m-strict, 25m, and 10m-casual) but only the type of boss killed (i.e., 10m boss vs 25m boss).

I would love to disclose the details but, to be honest, I don't have enough info yet from Blizzard on what the new armory XML data structures will look like. My recent statements make the assumption that Blizzard will give us some way of determining when a kill is done in 25 or 10 player mode - and even if they don't, I expect to be able to derive a result. In any case, I can share details of the GuildOx system as soon as more is known.

What I can say is that my "intent" for the 25m vs 10m tables will be to give us all an idea of which of the two modes appear to be easier for which boss fights/achievements. We know that Blizzard's stated design is to narrow the difficulty gap between 25s and 10s, but it is fair to expect that some bosses/achievements will be marginally easier on 10s and others will be easier on 25s.

So to answer your last question - Yes! I intend to rank the boss kill rather than try and determine the type of guild (25v10) and rank that.

I hope that explains it.

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GuildOx will be undergoing some exciting changes in the coming weeks to prepare for the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.

  • 10m strict rankings are no longer required with the common loot pools of Cataclysm so these rankings will be removed on 1 Dec. The strict criteria and 10m strict checker will also be removed. If you are currently a 10m strict guild then your hard-earned 10m strict rank history will be shown on your guild's rank history chart for 9 months after the Cataclysm release.

Is this part working? When I go to my guild's page on GuildOx (Be Your True Mind) I don't see our old 10m strict ranking anywhere. I checked a couple other 10m strict guilds and couldn't find their rankings either.

I'm sorry to bother you, I find your work fantastic. I'm just trying to figure out if this hasn't been implemented yet or if I'm not looking in the right place.

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Is this part working? When I go to my guild's page on GuildOx (Be Your True Mind) I don't see our old 10m strict ranking anywhere. I checked a couple other 10m strict guilds and couldn't find their rankings either.

Click on the "chart" tab on your guild's page at Be Your True Mind of Skywall - GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings and it will show your 10m strict ranking history.

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If we are talking modules, id like to see a top 10 rank for achievements holders in the guild, the top 10 with the highest amount of achievements, as of now the only website the host a module like this is joomla.

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If we are talking modules, id like to see a top 10 rank for achievements holders in the guild, the top 10 with the highest amount of achievements, as of now the only website the host a module like this is joomla.

GuildOx does this already. See an example @ Risen of Proudmoore - GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings

Is that the type of thing you are looking for?

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Hi all,

we use Guildox on my DK site so people have a view of what perspective a poster has (eg. top 100/top 5000/ casual).

I had an objection from one member about the metrics used, and did not have an answer.

He claimed it uses old content to weight your current ranking.

I said "I don't think their progress ranking counts old stuff. The achievement ranking does."

Reply was: "It does, but at a slowly decayed rate. (rather than a quickly decayed rate) -- So older content just doesn't count for very much... it just rankled me, in a guild so newly born and born of a lot of rerolls and alts... Seeing guilds down things months after us and then hop up a few points ABOVE US on GuildOx rankings. -- Hopefully shouldn't matter in Cata. -- It just always made me dislike GuildOx, lol. -- That and the inability to actually look at things by tier easily.

On the other hand it was interesting, that with what we DID transfer with, a few months into ICC we ended up bumping the top guilds on our new server out of 3 server first 10 man achieves, including Full House. lol "

I did not have a response to that, so am asking here as Polar's very busy with Cat prep.

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He claimed it uses old content to weight your current ranking.

I said "I don't think their progress ranking counts old stuff. The achievement ranking does."

Reply was: "It does, but at a slowly decayed rate. (rather than a quickly decayed rate) -- So older content just doesn't count for very much... it just rankled me, in a guild so newly born and born of a lot of rerolls and alts... Seeing guilds down things months after us and then hop up a few points ABOVE US on GuildOx rankings. -- Hopefully shouldn't matter in Cata.

I suspect that this was from back when WotLK was first launched and I kept the Naxx progression in the lists for quite some time. This has changed somewhat since then.

To answer your question:

The GuildOx Raid Progress ranks are based on what is considered progression material. At the moment it is looking solely at the cataclysm raid content. It does not take any of the older WotLK content into consideration and you can expect that older content kills will be removed from progression as newer content is released.

On the other hand, the Raid Achievement ranks look at all of the "raid" achievements for a given expansion and will definitely include older achievements as newer content is released.

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I seek everyone's feedback. On 5-Nov I mentioned the following:

I will continue to offer discrete 25m and 10m ranking tables

So out of interest, are people still interested in such rankings? Note that GuildOx currently shows the number of people that were in a raid at the time of a kill. See an example.

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I would like them. While guilds have the option to raid either size, I think being able to see discrete 10 and 25 rankings will show who actually focuses on what, which will be helpful when researching other guilds. If I was to look for a new guild, it would be nice to be able to see who progresses in 10-mans since I have no desire to return to the cat-herding of 25s. I imagine there are people who are interested in the reverse as well.

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If I was to look for a new guild, it would be nice to be able to see who progresses in 10-mans since I have no desire to return to the cat-herding of 25s. I imagine there are people who are interested in the reverse as well.

I'm one of those. At the moment wowprogress offers a "raid size registration" which is of no use for inner realm competition, when I see the competing guild being called "10 or 25 man" when all their bosses were downed on 10man vs our 25man only kills.

I dont care if 10 man is harder, easier or the same difficulty on some encounters.

What I do really care for is a clean sheet for competition with guilds in "my" size bracket.

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