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Raid Composition and Karazhan

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Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.

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DPS warrior is probly best if you have a Feral Druid as one of the tanks.

Then you get the synergy of [Feral Druid / DPS War / Rogue / Hunter / X ] which is really quite nice, however not having the synergy will really make the warrior seem more 'gimped' than another form of dpser imo.

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Make him spec Fury with a dozen or so points in Prot then, that will give him and your raid the flexibility and redundancy that justifies him being there. There is a lot of information about this in the warrior BC spec thread.

The sheer buff stacking in the melee group caused a DPStorm of epic proportions, essentially.

Had this same type of group in a simple 5-man instance the other day, but the effect was no less impressive :)

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This is what annoys me. You only need 1 priest per raid, and if you have a shadow priest, the holy priest might as well sit out for an extra paladin, because while prayer of mending is nice, it's not that big of a deal compared to shaman chain heals and their totem buffs/bloodlust. I'm not going to pretend my improved divine spirit is worth losing more blessings for the whole raid and another aura for another party. Our guild only has one blood elf paladin at 70, so I won't have to give up my spot for paladin stacking for perhaps a week or two longer. But being a min/maxer myself, what exactly can stacking priests do? Shackle? And what of future raid content? Holy priests barely heal as well as a druid, and holy paladins heal better (more HPM/HPS/longetivity), period. Then people wonder why priests are dropping off left and right from the game.

/kicks self in head for not rolling a paladin.

My guild takes 3 priests. 2 holy/disc and 1 shadow. The extra shackles really are nice, makes moroes a total joke at least. We are horde though and have yet to have a pally in Kara with us, even though we have a 70 keyed pally, he just got his key and I;ve not seen him online since =/.

Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.

Bear tank is very nice for a fury war, the extra 5% crit is not to be sniffed at! Also its another short cooldown interrupt. If he is an exceptional fury war he will out dps your good rogues still also.

We have a MS/prot war as our offtank. Its useful to have people able to switch in and out of dps/tank roles. However if you always have 1 prot warr and 1 feral druid, you won;t need an extra offtank.

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Is a DPS warrior still viable in Karazhan? I feel like they are taking up space for a better dps class or a druid who can tank better and dps better. We have a warrior now who wants to go fury but to me it is a wasted spot.

During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.

Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.

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After reviewing the majority of raid compositions it appears that as a Druid I will not get a raid spot unless I am feral? Also, it looks like even a purely restoration Druid is a last choice in 2nd healer compared Paladin/Priest/Shaman?

It's been engrained in a Druid's head since release that raiding Druids are healers. So that is what I did, healed. Now (from the looks of the raid make up) you are telling me that resto Druids are at the end of the list of preferred healers for 10-mans?

What about Balance/Resto Druids? I am almost afraid to ask :(

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We have had several raids with a druid resto specced healer and a feral druid tank. I think as a raid leader would consider druids equal to priests / shaman / paladins on average across the whole of the instance, with some classes being better than others on particular fights.

I think the thing to note is that as a resto specced druid, you're competing against other heal specced healers for your raid spot. However, there isn't a class in the game that can compete for the feral druid spot at the moment, and that's why they are so popular. On some fights he's our main tank, on other fights he's top 3 damage - that's why feral druids are, from a RL'ers point of view, one of the "must have" classes for Karazhan. They just make everything go smoothly, and hell, there's rumours that they can even heal once in a while if really needed... :)

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No, as it is, most druids want to be feral atm (it is quite overpowered after all). Resto druids are still very good healers. The thing is, you need two tanks for karazan. If you do not want to bring two warriors, a feral druid or a full prot paladin is the best solution. Prot paladins are not very good main tanks though, so you generally want a prot specced warrior for a boss that hits harder.

Now a tanking specced warrior and a tanking specced paladin means whenever you only need one tank, some dude in your raid is seriously gimped.

Imo the perfect solution is prot warrior, fearl druid, holy priest, shadow priest, holy paladin and resto shaman and various dps classes. For easy mode bring two warlocks so Aran and Netherspite's blue beam are dealt with. Locks also do excellent damage anyway with a shadow priest in the raid.

With that group composition you have two shackles, three resto healers and enough healers for nightbane when either the druid or priest just goes healing. Also if you happen to be horde, you need a prot warrior for Nightbane anyway.

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During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.

Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.

Paladin DPS (on the meters at least) while tanking is pretty impressive. As 4/43/14 I can OT when needed and do passable (close to the rogues - above some but below others) DPS otherwise.

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During our first Karazhan run wednesday, I ouputted more DPS, as a protection paladin, and tanking the entire run, than the fury warrior present.

Your warrior may have to reconsider.

Of course, do not take this into account if your warrior is willing to act as a support - off tanking when needed, etc. Bringing a fury warrior only for dps is, IHMO, a wasted spot.

We brought a fury warrior as DPS only last night. He was using max consumables and basically anything that would give him AP including a Flask. He was over 3200 attack power, self buffed. He finished the night at #1 DPS. We only had two healers and basically cleared up to Curator with no issues.

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We brought a fury warrior as DPS only last night. He was using max consumables and basically anything that would give him AP including a Flask. He was over 3200 attack power, self buffed. He finished the night at #1 DPS. We only had two healers and basically cleared up to Curator with no issues.

I think I'll have a talk with mine, then. Could you link me to his stuff ?

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We brought a fury warrior as DPS only last night. He was using max consumables and basically anything that would give him AP including a Flask. He was over 3200 attack power, self buffed. He finished the night at #1 DPS. We only had two healers and basically cleared up to Curator with no issues.

The problem is, that doesnt give me any indication of how much dps he was doing. I could go in, flask up etc and be #1 dps. If the rest of the raid arent using consumables, and one guy is, then obviously he will be top. What I'd be interested in is how his dps compares to people with similar levels of buffs.

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I'm usually MT but I have Mace Crafted Haste proc mace + good blues from 5 mans and use kings defender in offhand and can still win the dmg meters with impale/rampage spec. Fury warriors are definately not nerfed

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My Kara group brings a fury warrior for more or less just dps(me), along with a fury/prot warrior OT and a feral druid MT. We run dru/war/war/hunt/sham as group1, and warlock/mage/spriest/priest/pally as group2. I am usually top for dps on every single boss fight, except for things like Illhoof of course. Windfury and 3.5k AP(Unleashed Rage) before click trinkets/crusader gives me pretty great rage generation. Usually running about 31% crit and 14.5% hit with raid buffs.

When we killed Aran for the first time last week, with most people using some sort of dps consumables, no flasks though, he died with just under 50% mana left. I was at just under 1300 dps for the fight afterwards, which includes me fucking up and forgetting to refresh sunder during execute spam.

DPS warriors are just like before, get the gear, get the buffs, and the damage will come. It just takes more to get you there.

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Finally managed to clear Aran last night and we went upstairs to have a look at Netherspite. We were amazed that with only a quick explanation of what the beams did we had him at around 65% before he wiped us in phase 2. We've had a very consistent raid composition that we really want to try to maintain, we dislike the idea of stacking raids.

That said, we normally roll to KZ with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 1-2 Warlocks, 1 enhance shaman, 3-4 assorted DPS. We have completed every encounter up to this point with only 2 healers (every opera event, aran, maiden, illhoof, all the "tough" ones) and 2 tanks. Is this possible with Netherspite? I've read a few strats that say you * must* bring 3 tanks and 3 healers but we'd rather have a harder fight and not do that if its possible.

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You need three tanks, but what can serve as a tank is pretty broad due to the nature of the red beam. All you really need is to always have a tank who can't be 1-shot by a crit, and even a mage fills that for a quarter or so of a phase. At worst, the red beam only makes him take less damage, which while undesirable, is nowhere as bad as the other two beams. Fewer than three healers would be hard mainly due to the spread of damage, but with the green beam even in damage gear an enh shaman wouldn't be terrible. Two tanks/two healers is definatly suboptimal, but I'd be surprised if it was outright impossible.

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That said, we normally roll to KZ with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 1-2 Warlocks, 1 enhance shaman, 3-4 assorted DPS. We have completed every encounter up to this point with only 2 healers (every opera event, aran, maiden, illhoof, all the "tough" ones) and 2 tanks. Is this possible with Netherspite? I've read a few strats that say you * must* bring 3 tanks and 3 healers but we'd rather have a harder fight and not do that if its possible.

You don't need 3 tanks for Netherspite. You can have someone else step into the red beam after the tank has recieved ~30 stacks. We usually use a paladin for this, but a shaman with a shield can also work, or a rogue (usually with high dodge % or popping evasion). Toward the end of the fight, pretty much anyone can take the beam for a bit if necessary since it will still take him a few hits to get through ~40k health.

However, it is a fairly healing-intensive fight due to the constant netherburn damage. Our elemental shaman is healing for most of the fight (usually helping the warlock in the blue beam to stay topped off and healing the group), and we have 2 other full-time healers. Taking arcane and/or shadow protection potions can reduce the healing load, and everyone needs to have healthstones and health pots to take if they eat a netherbreath (since often the knockback will push them out of healing range anyway). One trick you can do is if you aren't having healers rotate through the green beam (using rogues/warriors instead) is have them take 1 tick of it because it refills their mana pool instantly.

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Starting Aran this week and we have been mixing and matching to get a good raid composition...(for us) last nights crew performed very well:

MT-Prot Warr

OT-Prot Pally

DPS-

Mage x2

Warlock

Rogue

Shadow Priest

Heals-

Priest

Pally

Shaman

Our second Kara group starts this week and hopefully we can field the same type of lineup.

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Since the druid "nerf", does anyone else take a protection pally as an MT/OT? Most of these posts are before the patch changed a few things for druids, so I was trying to get a better idea of what to start looking for as far as getting kara groups at 70.

It looks like squisha's group setup would work best since the patch.

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You need three tanks, but what can serve as a tank is pretty broad due to the nature of the red beam. All you really need is to always have a tank who can't be 1-shot by a crit, and even a mage fills that for a quarter or so of a phase. At worst, the red beam only makes him take less damage, which while undesirable, is nowhere as bad as the other two beams. Fewer than three healers would be hard mainly due to the spread of damage, but with the green beam even in damage gear an enh shaman wouldn't be terrible. Two tanks/two healers is definatly suboptimal, but I'd be surprised if it was outright impossible.

Right on with the not being one shot thing. I wouldn't reccomend anything less than mail for tanking it though. Currently we use

Prot warrior

Fury warrior (stays in zerkerstance)

Banish

Feral druid/protwarrior (whatever is the OT that night)

Paladin

We also walk in there with 3 healers. Usually 2 pallies and a holy priest. The good thing about the green beam though is it can be taken by any class without having many negative effects. Rogues/warriors do this well. Having a feral druid take a green beam for a rotation is nice to just through some hots around.

Another good thing about the fight is the ability to overlap with people. Typically the fury warrior will take a red beam and then a blue beam after the banish. Same with a paladin taking the green and red.

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Since the druid "nerf", does anyone else take a protection pally as an MT/OT? Most of these posts are before the patch changed a few things for druids, so I was trying to get a better idea of what to start looking for as far as getting kara groups at 70.

It looks like squisha's group setup would work best since the patch.

I'm a prot pally OT in our group, we run two groups and the OT in the other group is a prot pally as well. It works well as far as I'm concerned.

I would not be averse to having a feral druid OTing (except for the fact that it might put me out of a job). But our guild only has 2 active druids at the moment, and they're both resto.

I think I could manage to MT any of the fights we've done as well, though I haven't had the opportunity because we have a better geared prot warrior MT.

I tanked Romulo on our guild's first kill of R&J.

Our class makeups vary from week to week depending on attendance, and the fact we're trying to balance two raids without tending to favor one as an A-Team, so we don't always have the same raid groups.

In my opinion you want:

2 tanks

3 healers - Probably one who is DPS hybrid

5 DPS

The DPS should be a bit varied so that you have different forms of CC for adds. But past that breakdown I think that execution makes up for the rest.

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Since the druid "nerf", does anyone else take a protection pally as an MT/OT? Most of these posts are before the patch changed a few things for druids, so I was trying to get a better idea of what to start looking for as far as getting kara groups at 70.

I'm the MT for one of our two Kara raids. We've gotten Malchezaar down and we're working on Nightbane. Haven't gotten NB past 50% yet, but that's mainly due to still learning the flight phase; my mitigation doesn't seem to be a problem.

It requires someone committed to the job, but a Paladin MT for Karazhan is perfectly viable.

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Since the druid "nerf", does anyone else take a protection pally as an MT/OT? Most of these posts are before the patch changed a few things for druids, so I was trying to get a better idea of what to start looking for as far as getting kara groups at 70.

The nerf was massively overhyped. Druid tanking in Karazhan has never been better, especially now we that 80% of the instance isn't immune to the primary aggro dump threat move.

Even post-nerf, after losing 800hp and 1700ish armor (roughly 5% more physical damage), the only place I'm ever at more risk dying than our warrior(s) (We interchange the MT/OT role depending on the fights) is probably the Spell Shade/Sorcerous Shade packs.

Warriors and Druids remain very viable tanks... and while Blizzard are (according to Blue's) 'in the process of reevaluating paladin tanking ability', a paladin who itemizes appropriately in the meantime (mainly mitigation/hit points > spell damage, since Kara is mostly undead) also makes an awesome tank.

That said, we normally roll to KZ with 2 tanks, 2 healers, 1-2 Warlocks, 1 enhance shaman, 3-4 assorted DPS. We have completed every encounter up to this point with only 2 healers (every opera event, aran, maiden, illhoof, all the "tough" ones) and 2 tanks. Is this possible with Netherspite? I've read a few strats that say you * must* bring 3 tanks and 3 healers but we'd rather have a harder fight and not do that if its possible.

Netherspite should be very doable with any decent group setup as long as the methods of creatively abusing the various beams' mechanics are brought into play. 2 healers (considering you took Aran out, they're likely very good) should be enough if everyone does their part to minimize breath phase damage. Also, is one of the healers a Restoration druid? One of the perks of green beam is that if timed well, a druid can basically spam regrowth on 5 high-risk people right before a breath phase, and have 600-tick heals every 3 seconds for 21 seconds, mitigating a lot of the aura ticks for a good duration of the breath phase. Renew also works wonders for this, though it doesn't last as long.

Prolly should move the discussion over here --> http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9698 to avoid a derail.

Btw, a little late in reply, but

... however, my average ping time is in the area of 250-350ms. I'm wondering how much it will affect my survivability in these fights down the road.

I hate you so much. :(

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Since the druid "nerf", does anyone else take a protection pally as an MT/OT? Most of these posts are before the patch changed a few things for druids, so I was trying to get a better idea of what to start looking for as far as getting kara groups at 70.

It looks like squisha's group setup would work best since the patch.

The druid nerf didn't hurt that much at all in Kara. Only time I truly notice the extra damage is on Maulgar.

Threatwise, it's only things like the non elite packs before Moroes/Opera that are harder to AoE tank, all of the single target, or even dual target stuff is no problem. (for reference, I run flaskless in Kara, only the occasional agi/defense pot + food/rum as standard)

That being said, we do have a prot pally as OT for some of our groups. Basically it's been

Feral MT for one group and Prot Warrior MT for the other.

OTs have included Prot Pally, 2*Arms/Prot warrior, lesser geared ferals.

The pally has help up his end fine, but does seem to be more susceptible to being bursted down than when I've had the warrior OT, this seems to be a gearing difference more than anything else however.

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