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# [WW] 5.4 -Siege of the Fist

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### #21 Portrero

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

I've tried unglyphed SFB on the globules and it doesn't seem to hit them at all. I'm not sure of the reason.

### #22 Venyasure

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

Due to the 40% increased attack speed Two-handed users receive, crit is valued slightly more if you are using a staff or a polearm. Dual Wield will see more benefit from haste.

I'd like to comment this. Actually, both 2h and 1h autoattacks benefit more from haste than crit. It's just that the haste/crit benefit ratio is higher for 2h.

Let's see how we can prove this. Note that due to the nature of autoattacks, analysing them is completely gameplay-independent, and they can therefore be perfectly described by formulas.

h = haste rating
c = crit rating
a = agility
t = hit rating
e = expertise rating
dps = weapon dps
ws = weapon speed
asb = whether or not you have the Attack Speed buff (asb = 0 or 1)
apb = whether or not you have the Attack Power buff (apb = 0 or 1)

I'll explain how i procede for 2h, the 1h calculations are very similar.

Stats

The Attack Power of a Pandaren Monk is equal to :
ap(a,apb) = (333 + 2*a) * (1 + 0.1*apb)
The crit chance is equal to :
crit(a,c) = 0.0757 + (a-111)/125900 + c/60000 + 0.05 - 0.03
I'll use the function hit :
hit(t,e) = chance to land a successful (not missed and undodged) attack

Average damage per hit

The average damage of an autoattack is calculated thus :
m(a,dps,ws,apb) = (dps + ap(a,apb)/14) * ws * 1.2

The hit table is represented in the formula using the following rules :
- damage = 0.7 if the attack glances (24% chance)
- damage = 2.06 if it crits
- damage = 0 if it misses
- damage = 1 if it hits
We can begin implementing it into a computer-based calculation :

Swing Timer

Quite simply, the swing timer is equal to :

Tiger Strikes

The chance for an autoattack to carry a Tiger Strike is equal to :
1 - 0.92^4 (one minus the chance it didn't proc on the last 4 attacks) = 0.28360704 (28.36% chance)
Note that it has been stated in the Beta Class Balance Analysis post that Tiger Strikes could proc from misses, their proc chance is therefore not affected by hit and expertise.

Tiger Strikes also increase Attack Speed by 50%. You can therefore use a multiplier for your swing timer, that is equal to 1 if you don't have Tiger Strikes (0.92^4 chance) or 1/1.5 = 2/3 if you do (1 - 0.92^4 chance)
1*0.92^4 + (2/3)*(1-0.92^4) = 0.90546432
The swing timer is therefore multiplied by 0.90546432

Overall damage per second

We now simply have to divide the melee damage by the swing timer and add the average number of Tiger Strikes per second, equal to the number of autoattacks per second multiplied by the chance for an autoattack to carry a Tiger Strike. Note that Tiger Strikes use the "yellow" attack table, not the "white" one.

We get a formula giving the damage per second of autoattacks :

By using a similar method, we get a formula for 1h autoattacks :

Scaling

Here we are. We now simply have to calculate derivatives. Exact values will depend on agility, haste, crit, weapon dps, etc... But the general idea should be the same, unless you have much more crit than haste for example.

I'll assume :
18k agi
5k haste
weapon of ilvl 502 (4725 dps for 2h, 3504 dps for 1h)
6k crit
Attack Power and Attack Speed buffs
7.5% hit/exp

You can see that the scaling with haste is about 55% better with 2h and 38% better with 1h

### #23 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

I'm going to link this post, Venya - I think this is great, especially having the math behind it. I didn't mean to imply that 1H didn't benefit more from crit currently than from Haste - just that 2H benefits less from haste than DW does. I still believe (through sims etc.) that both setups are crit > haste. I'll fix the wording on that - thanks for bringing it to my attention.

On the topic of SFB: Do we have more logs that show SFB being cast and not hitting a globule? Also, is there something I'm missing that can cause this? I may try to submit a bug report, but I don't want to do that until I have more supporting evidence. (Edit: Also, thanks for the comment about them not hitting globules even with SFB unglyphed)
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### #24 promdates

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

I still believe (through sims etc.) that both setups are crit > haste.

I ran both of the normal and heroic T14 1H sims last night, and both showed haste>crit still. Unless I did something wrong, but I doubt. I know from the testing myself and others have done shows that going crit after a point will be a damage increase, but it seems SimulationCraft still isn't showing the same.

also: new home for the trinket spreadsheet. Finally got around to getting my web server up again. Any changes will get posted here and archived.
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### #25 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

To be fair with you, most of my Sims as a 2H user have shown that haste > crit - but in practice, this hasn't been the case. I will acknowledge, however, that I can see haste > crit in a Patchwerk situation, but... well, I haven't seen any true Patchwerk situations this tier. I'm going to try to run a couple this weekend with a few different settings and see what happens.
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### #26 promdates

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:25 PM

The only "real" Patchwerk type fight is Gara'jal the Spiritbender, and only if you're on the boss 100% of the time. The odds of that happening are rather slim, as most guilds rotate people through.

You could always just use LFR as a "raid dummy", and never go under the spirit totem on that fight to see how you do. Not exactly optimal though.
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### #27 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:50 PM

The only "real" Patchwerk type fight is Gara'jal the Spiritbender, and only if you're on the boss 100% of the time. The odds of that happening are rather slim, as most guilds rotate people through.

You could always just use LFR as a "raid dummy", and never go under the spirit totem on that fight to see how you do. Not exactly optimal though.

You make a good point. I don't recall ever having energy issues on this fight - and I believe the last time I ran it (on LFR), I ended up pulling threat off of a tank and dying (not exactly the best way to test).

In my 25m, we rarely have melee enter the spirit realm unless they are a DK. However, I've only been a DPS for this fight a handful of times - I typically tank it, as I happened to take less damage than the bear/DK that I raided with previously. With a crit build, though, I've had better luck on it the few times I've been privileged to use Windwalker on it, so there's that.

Still, at 4.4K haste (where I am right now), I still tend to GCD cap very quickly, especially with Haste (heroism/lust) up. I can't imagine having any more haste - but again, I'm unfortunately stuck with using a 2H instead of DW. Hopefully this week, I'll have a bit more luck and have a better configuration to test with.

Now that I think about it, I also wonder if part of why it's encouraging me to go for more haste is that I'm not currently itemized for the 4set - I dropped it in favor of higher-ilevel pieces, and until I can shed ~500 more haste (it was causing me to energy cap, and remain energy capped for some time - when I shed it, I noticed a near-immediate damage increase. I'll probably regear for it once my gear is a bit more optimal, especially with heroic tier helm etc)

Edit: I just armoried you, Prom - are you geared for the 4P, or purposely dropping it? I just have a hunch that that's part of why it's encouraging additional haste.
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### #28 Crevan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

I will acknowledge, however, that I can see haste > crit in a Patchwerk situation

Heavy aoe situations will favour haste as well, I would assume, though there's only two an a half encounters this tier where that becomes relevant.

### #29 Taigong

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:04 PM

Venyasure, your initial formulas use crit as the second parameter of the function and haste as the fifth. But when you differentiate, it looks like your "haste" derivative is a derivative with respect to the second parameter (crit) and your "crit" derivative is a derivative with respect to the fifth parameter (haste).

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your math, but it looks like you have them the wrong way around, especially since common sense suggests that haste should be stronger than crit for autoattacks, as it requires less rating per %.

### #30 promdates

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

Edit: I just armoried you, Prom - are you geared for the 4P, or purposely dropping it? I just have a hunch that that's part of why it's encouraging additional haste.

I'm just going with the 2P, as the 4P bonus hasn't shown to be a large enough increase... that and I haven't had any need for more energy from EB yet. Last night was the first night in a while that I was actually able to dps instead of tank, due to our tanks having injuries. So I've been looking into dropping haste for more crit.

Looking at the weights I got from running the T14H_1H gearset it showed 1.48 for crit and 1.69 for haste, which includes the 4P bonus. I honestly just think that simc is overvaluing haste, or it's just not lining up with what we're seeing on live.
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### #31 Venyasure

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:05 PM

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your math, but it looks like you have them the wrong way around, especially since common sense suggests that haste should be stronger than crit for autoattacks, as it requires less rating per %.

Oh dear, you're right. I've switched crit and haste in the final calculation. I've modified my message, now it should be ok, and autoattacks scale better with haste.

I too thought it was surprising, since it takes 425 rating to gain 1% haste, while it takes 600 rating for 1% crit. And since a simplified formula for autoattacks would look like
(1+haste)*(1+crit)*something
it's logical that haste is better than crit.

### #32 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

Oh dear, you're right. I've switched crit and haste in the final calculation. I've modified my message, now it should be ok, and autoattacks scale better with haste.

I too thought it was surprising, since it takes 425 rating to gain 1% haste, while it takes 600 rating for 1% crit. And since a simplified formula for autoattacks would look like
(1+haste)*(1+crit)*something
it's logical that haste is better than crit.

That does make sense - and outside of energy capping more easily, we DO still benefit from haste via increased attack speed. But, even so, most items are still going to have ~1-2% of either stat. For example, Shadow Heart Spaulders from Heroic Grand Empress have both haste and crit - 1.09% crit and 1.49% haste, that is, where .41% of the haste could be reforged into another stat (bringing the total haste down to 1.08%, thus roughly even with the amount of crit on them).

So I think what I'm trying to say is - it's easier to reach a higher % of haste than crit, so I do support the argument that 1 point of haste rating will be superior to 1 point of crit rating. However, I also still think that it is a legitimate strategy to favor a higher amount of critical strike than it is to favor a higher amount of haste. With reforging, it's very easy to pick up items with haste, and reforge them into another stat (exp, hit, crit, etc) - it seems like the lower value of 1 point of crit to 1 point of haste is designed to try to "balance" reforging (per se).

Plus... Playing with more than 10% haste feels like I'd be a cat on a hot tin roof - as it stands, too much energy and I could see myself easily GCD capping, especially with Lust/Heroism.

So the best way I can summarize it: It makes sense that 1 point haste rating > 1 point crit, but it seems that Blizzard has attempted to balance this through item design and reforging. While our attacks do benefit from haste, I can still see too much haste leading to energy/gcd capping - which I could foresee as being difficult to simulate.

I am open to being corrected if I've made any false assumptions - didn't exactly get enough sleep last night.
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### #33 Saltycracker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

Melee swing damage is only a small part of the puzzle. Our auto attacks are the only portion of our damage that benefit more with haste than crit.

Haste converts to ability damage via Jabs, but the jab penalty is so great that it makes more sense (to me at least) to stack crit which increases the damage output of all your damaging abilities. Something I need to think about and model is that haste also increases your TEB stack rate, which increases your damage throughput.

From my spreadsheet, I'm seeing that we GCD cap at about 32% haste (Using EB on cooldown, 2 FoF/min). It will probably make sense to stack haste a little shy of the cap for contingency.This also assumes that your rotation is perfect, with no gaps and no wasted CB procs.

This may all be moot anyways, as I'm seeing mastery win out as the best green stat.

### #34 Eeinx

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

From my spreadsheet, I'm seeing that we GCD cap at about 32% haste (Using EB on cooldown, 2 FoF/min). It will probably make sense to stack haste a little shy of the cap for contingency.This also assumes that your rotation is perfect, with no gaps and no wasted CB procs.

This may all be moot anyways, as I'm seeing mastery win out as the best green stat.

While having abilities like EB and FoF in the rotation, we're assuming that energy capping is a direct dps loss, but in the areas where the haste is still useful, it can potentially make up for the damage loss from capping in certain scenarios. For the times where you're not capping the bar might raise enough above crit to pass any losses during those capping moments.

I can't mathematically prove it but thats what it seems like.

Since Haste directly affects even the new mastery (by creating more chi to spend), it will likely lose its value once and IF you can keep up 100% TeB uptime.

We have alot of flexibility and I think our rotation will begin to change depending on how much secondaries we have to spend. For example saving cd's for TeB burns.
Since xuen isn't affected, teb cleaving with our new talent might be a dps gain if they are affected. If they aren't then we dont have to talk about it

### #35 Saltycracker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:58 PM

I like that thought Eenix. It's a good buffer/feedback loop to think about and that very well be the case that what DPS you lose by energy capping is made up by TeB/Melee damage.

1 energy = 1/40 jab and 1/40 BoK roughly

100% TeB uptime is a dangerous tightrope to walk. It's a DPS loss to refresh TeB too soon. You also need ludicrous chi generation to get 100% uptime with 10 stacks of TeB.

### #36 Eeinx

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

I like that thought Eenix. It's a good buffer/feedback loop to think about and that very well be the case that what DPS you lose by energy capping is made up by TeB/Melee damage.

1 energy = 1/40 jab and 1/40 BoK roughly

100% TeB uptime is a dangerous tightrope to walk. It's a DPS loss to refresh TeB too soon. You also need ludicrous chi generation to get 100% uptime with 10 stacks of TeB.

Yes.

You look at it like this:

You spend so much chi to get a full stack of teb
You need to much energy to generate that chi
and you need to have teb up during cd's

If you can effectively keep it up 100%, you're supporting your strongest stat (mastery) and all of your cd's, so after that point i can't see haste being as good as crit at all. It would probably be where you can get 100% uptime with EB is when where crit may overtake it just because of double damage from crits outweighing the wasted haste. Since haste and mastery have that interaction this could very well be the case late t15

It really just depends. we'll get to see that picture once I add the new mastery in simc this weekend.

### #37 Saltycracker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:17 PM

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I mean, I'd rather pool 20 stacks of TeB for a part of the fight when I know we will be using lust, so that I have 30 seconds of max damage output + a little for the last 10 seconds.

edit: I almost think we should stack too much haste so that we can have enough resources to use RSK, FoF, and refresh TP when we need to instead of playing the minmaxing juggling game of not using the heavy hitters on CD.

### #38 Eeinx

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I mean, I'd rather pool 20 stacks of TeB for a part of the fight when I know we will be using lust, so that I have 30 seconds of max damage output + a little for the last 10 seconds.

I agree, but it just depends on where that DPS loss begins to happen and if the benefit from tiger strikes and weapon haste still overtakes crit. Thats the hypothetical point we'll hopefully clearly see.

Not to mention theres always combo breaker so we'll have a small margin of error haunting us.

### #39 tastysnack

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:47 PM

While having abilities like EB and FoF in the rotation, we're assuming that energy capping is a direct dps loss, but in the areas where the haste is still useful, it can potentially make up for the damage loss from capping in certain scenarios. For the times where you're not capping the bar might raise enough above crit to pass any losses during those capping moments.

I believe that energy capping is a loss, but not a large loss. The way I approach it is energy cap vs. chi cap in theoreticals with theoretical numbers:

My BoK does 60K dps (let's say), and my Jab does 16K dps. If I'm at cap for both, then logically it would be better to use BoK rather than Jab, otherwise I'm losing around 40K.

So to me, it doesn't seem like as "much" of a loss to energy cap as one might think - and even then, I'd assume that a person with high enough skill wouldn't find themselves in this situation all too often (other than perhaps during BL and shortly before EB ends).

(Disclaimer: I know you know that, it's just how I consider it, I hope that makes sense.)

Since Haste directly affects even the new mastery (by creating more chi to spend), it will likely lose its value once and IF you can keep up 100% TeB uptime.

We have alot of flexibility and I think our rotation will begin to change depending on how much secondaries we have to spend. For example saving cd's for TeB burns.
Since xuen isn't affected, teb cleaving with our new talent might be a dps gain if they are affected. If they aren't then we dont have to talk about it

I don't see why they wouldn't - but then, I can't imagine why Xuen doesn't benefit.

Keep in mind, too, that the new mastery will also have an effect on crit.

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I agree - but I am going to assume that this is based off of using TeB before it hits 10 stacks? Meaning - would a theoretical 100% uptime of 10 stacks of TeB still be a loss? Maybe I misinterpreted what you and Eeinx are saying.

Though, if you were sacrificing mastery/crit in order to achieve 100% uptime of 10 stacks, I could see that being a sizable loss.

Also - can't wait to see the results with the new mastery in SimC. My intent is to try to begin drafting an update prior to the launch of 5.2, so early results of what will work vs. what won't will be welcome.
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### #40 Saltycracker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:01 PM

I agree - but I am going to assume that this is based off of using TeB before it hits 10 stacks? Meaning - would a theoretical 100% uptime of 10 stacks of TeB still be a loss? Maybe I misinterpreted what you and Eeinx are saying.

Though, if you were sacrificing mastery/crit in order to achieve 100% uptime of 10 stacks, I could see that being a sizable loss.

You need to spend 80 chi/min to have 100% 10 stacks uptime. So that's 40 jabs/min -> 160 energy/min -> 2.666 energy/sec -> 231% haste. Like I said, ludicrous amounts of haste. That's assuming you could even spend 80 chi/min with all those jabs.

Keep in mind that in 5.2 you can pool TeB to 20 stacks, but only spend 10 at a time. So, sitting at 20 stacks will be a DPS loss, instead of the 10 we have now.

In 5.2 let's say your average monk wants to keep TeB up 100% of the time. That means he needs to refresh it every 15 seconds. Your average monk probably spends 10 chi in that 15 seconds, so he would have a 5 stack TeB running all the time. This is possible, but won't produce the highest damage output. It would probably make more sense to use a 10 stack when a proc occurs, lust or Xuen because the damage output is multiplicative with the TeB buff.