Post: MoP beta discussion
Infraction: 2. All opinions should be stated as succinctly as possible.
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Original Post: [quote][quote name='Havoc12']That depends on a lot of things. You can use mindbender twice in a 5 minute fight no problem as disc and as disc you also have penance and renew to cast and you can't really spam flash even with FDCL.[/quote]
(First of all and on the risk of getting a warning or infraction for simply writing that: I really enjoy this discussion with you even though we have extremely contradicting views on almost all of the spells and talents of a disc, so please take no offense on my replys to you)
Well "twice in a 5 minute fight" assumes that you'll burn enough Mana in the first minute for mindbender to fully take effect which isn't a given. Renew isn't a given as well since I assume you're talking renew5 and I'm not yet sure we'll have sufficient haste@90.
[quote]In an AoE fight where you are casting AoE heals mostly lot FDCL is terrible for disc. I have tried both now as disc and I can confidently say that whoever said FDCL is better needs to rethink.[/quote]
Did not yet play in a Raid in MoP so I'm happy to hear your thoughts since in the new 5 mans FDCL is an outright nobrainer.
[quote]Its silly to say that HoH+fiend automatically reduces your number of SF casts per fight. It all depends on the fight duration. In a 6 minute fight you will HoH+fiend on the 2nd use of fiend, not on the first and you will as early as you would without HoH. Chaining HoH with fiend is an absolute no brainer and if you do it the smart way you lose nothing at all.[/quote]
Well it isn't really a no brainer since you're assuming you will cast fiend w/o HoH and then have enough mana (and nobody else needing your HoH) to not use HoH in the next 4 minutes. On the other Hand we're talking about one ppm to even out the mana gains and giving you a stacking instant heal with a relatively long window to use up.
[quote]Even without grace renew has the same HPM as heal in inner will only its instant. Renew in inner will out perform heal in inner fire, so it makes sense to go inner will and use it, unless you have FDCL.[/quote]
Then again so far I have no reason to believe I will be using Inner Will. Renew 4 Ticks for 5003 for me 3120 Mana. "Heal" heals for 19785 @2.400 Mana. So Renew has 6,41HpM and Heal has 8.23 HpM Heal HpS is Higher, Renew HpCT is higher but overheal is way higher. Heal will proc and refresh Grace, Renew won't and Heal will proc FDCL while Renew won't. And since the SpS's healing component now correctly benefits from Grace, evel SpS outperforms Renews HpM and HpCT (plus is assumed to stack and renew grace and proc FDCL). I can't see a scenario where I'd go Inner Will just for the sake of a spell that I have good backups for instead. Unless of course a fight with permanent movement.
[quote]For disc I would take mindbender instead. FDCL is too reliant on SpS and heal for disc which is rubbish. If you have to cast other spells, and you do have to do that a lot as disc, then you lose a ton of value from it. For holy FDCL is incredibly good value due to serendipity, but for disc its quite a lot less. If you have to PoH spam at some point, you won't be getting free flashes, but mindbender will give you the same return.[/quote]
Well let's take a look at our heals. Penance, HF, PoM, PoH and Renew don't Proc. PoH is the only one of those we will be casting w/o cooldown/duration restriction. So we have Heal, Smite, SpS and FH which will proc FDCL and have no restrictions plus not only they will proc FDCL, they will either stack and/or renew Grace or reduce the penance CD and stack/or refresh Evangalism synergize with DI if skilled. So far I can't picture a general scenario where FDCL would underperform Mindbender by that much that I would a) forfeit FDCL and would usw Inner Will to boost PW:S and Renew.
[quote]You forgot PoM. Also assuming that you can't have penance up is really odd. You can cast renew and PoM if you need to do and delay casting up to 2.7seconds and you will still be able to chain penance+a cast. So that can be total of 4 spells with 15% haste. I do so quite regularly on live if I am tank healing. It makes perfect sense to get a renew up.[/quote]
That would mean delaying Penance in order to get it to profit from BT. Since Penance now (assuming the tank has 3Grace) is best used on a hostile target on CD AND PW:S has a Cooldown it's rather likely that I won't have Penance aligned with PW:S. unless I want to give up a lot of Penance Throughput. Same for PoM. Why would I align that with BT? It is only worth it's money the more jumps it has. Even losing one jump does not dignify recasting it just for the sake of BT. So that would leave me with Renew - that doesn't align with BT either and (as stated above) is really not a "must have". So we're at 1 heal plus maybe one instant heal.
[quote]10% spell power is not 10% more healing, its below 5%. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. Then you have overheal and the value of IF evaporates faster than a drop of water in the desert. When single target healing IW is superior.[/quote]
But what would we need IW for? PoM Accounts for at best 5-7% overall healing (last time I checked and that time still with the 60% bonus 5 charges glyph). And that 7% if we're willing to forfeit it's HpM by recasting it when everybody's full just for having some AoE Buffer. So that leaves us with PW:S and Renew. Renew can by all means be replayed by SpS or Heal. So that leaves us mainly with PW:S at best once in 6 Secs. Don't really see that outshining IF.
[quote]FH gives you more HpS at better HpM, when you dont consider everything. This requires that you have grace on the target which is not a given first of all.[/quote]
True that. But it's not even remotely given PW:S is off of CD. Plus IF you use it as an emergency heal aka non tank (since the tank will very likely be having grace) you can do this once every 6 seconds.
[quote]Second it requires that you are in inner fire, which as I have explained before is not a great idea, unless HPM does not matter.[/quote]
Let's just say HpS does not matter and IF gives 5% more healing. So even ignoring the HpS gain you'd need more than 1/3 of your healing coming from instant heals to use IW to save mana. With a 6 Second CD on PW:S and gaining no mana if you recast PoM with charges left I don't see how this would happen.
[quote]Third it does not take into account overheal, which for PWS on the tank should be zero, under challenging circumstances, but for FH it wont be even if you are solo healing. Fourth it ignores the buff balance. @lvl 87 the mastery buff gives you 2.2k mastery and the 10% spellpower buff boosts both spells equally. The only thing that helps flash is crit, but crit is a very poor stat for disc, you will be avoiding it. As our mastery stacks higher and higher FH will lag behind PWS quite quickly. It already lags behind in inner will, but soon it will also lag behind even in inner fire.[/quote]
While this is indeed a valid point for PW:S compared with FH (again, I only used FH to show the most mana inefficient alternative we have - and in low damage phases it would not be the FH but rather heal or SpS) this does again make a point for SpS replacing any renew, thus making Inner Will obsolete.
[quote]. Also if you are mostly single target healing it's a no brainer to be in inner will and use PWS frequently at the moment. In inner fire it is also a great idea to use renew especially on grace stacked targets.[/QUOTE]
I beg to differ. When tank healing it's a no brainer to not only spec FDCL but be in inner Fire since you'll AT best be using PW:S once in 15 Seconds and even if you WOULD keep Renew up (and there is really no need to, since SpS and Heal outshine it in HpS and HpM AND will proc FDCL.) it would not dignify being in IW.[/quote]
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