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# Rage Generation is changed

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### #1 hellord

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 02:50 PM

I'm starting to have a look at rage since I'm getting very different results from the ones expected with wowwiki's formula.

d = damage done
c = 320.6 (constant @lvl 80)
f = 3.5 for mh hit, 7 for mh crit (1.75-3.0 for offhand)
s = weapon speed

Rage = (7.5d/c + fs)/2

It's quite a bit many people are experiencing conflicting values and I think the difference is not so small. Thus any spreadsheet based on wowwiki's formula is overestimating the rage generation of both arms and fury warriors.

I did few tests, still too few to even expect to derive a formula. Also I'm getting sometimes a sort of rage loss happening just after the rage gain. I don't know yet if this is due to addon and I'm making a small app to track precise data.
I noticed this ungeared with a 3.2 6 dps weapon. I was gaining 4 rage then suddenly stepping to 3. I actually think this could be due to Xperl but I'll update the info once I have confirmed it.

At first glance the formula on wowwiki states that you should only consider some factors that are damage dealt, weapon speed, the hand and wether it's a crit or not. Part of the rage you gain is then fs/2 that for a 3.2 speed mh hit is 4.8 and for a crit 9.6.

This is what i got with a 3.2s weapon completely ungeared:
Few normal hits for 130-137 -> rage gained 3-4 (no ER)
Few normal hits for 139-143 -> rage gained 4 (with ER)

I should have gained 5.6 rage at 0 damage and converting that ~140sh damage in another 1.5 rage. It should be at least 7 in both cases.

This is what i got with a 3.4s weapon completely geared:
Few normal hits for 1432-1437 -> rage gained 17 (no ER)
Few normal hits for 1721-1767 -> rage gained 25 (no ER)

fs/2 is in both cases 5.95 with wowwiki's formula, and in that case we gained 11 rage from 1435 damage and 19 from 1730 while we should expect 16 and 20 respectively.

I also compared 2 hits close in damage with and w/o ER:
no ER - damage 1619 - rage expected 24-25 - gained 19
w ER - damage 1670 - rage expected 30-31 - gained 24

I need a lot more data and I'm making a small addon to help me, but actually rage gain on live is half then expected when ungeared and about 1/4th less then expected at higher levels.

I'm pretty sure the fixed part of the damage has been lowered and the rage gain from damage done diminished by around 30%.

Actually it's rather annoying measuring rage gains and after a few tries I'm only relying on UNIT_RAGE event rather than rage bar. Anyway this event doesn't pass any other parameter then the unit so I have to measure rage with UnitPower() when the event is received. I don't know if this is the best way to do it and would appreciate any hint.

I didn't test yet with oh since mh data are odd enough atm.
I did test unarmed and ungeared but need more data. Atm I'm generating 2 rage (consistently) for 70 damage at 1.89s.
I'm experiencing some discrepancies (very rarely btw) where I get 10-15% more rage on a hit than normal (3926 crit -> 55 rage, 3967 crit -> 68 rage for ex) but I can't track rage on combat log and I need the addon to see how often it happens if it happens at all.

I'd appreciate any data and any speculation possibly backed up with data.
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### #2 Machinator

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:35 PM

I started to do some testing a couple days ago to confirm that the formula has changed. But watching the rage bar for gains gets old fast and isnt very reliable, so I stopped since I couldn't find an addon.

Also I'm getting sometimes a sort of rage loss happening just after the rage gain.

Is this something like you hit and gain rage but a split second later you go down 1 rage? I noticed that happening sometimes but dismissed it as a UI bug at the time.

Also I noticed that you gain rage on dodge/parry, between 3-10, possibly based on weapon speed?

Here is a couple points of data I took. I did test a bit with an OH, which had the same difference from expected as the MH did.

3.8 speed
Hit 1006, 14 rage, ~18.42 expected
Crit 2137, 31 rage, ~38.3 expected

1.8 speed
Hit 405, 6 rage, ~7.89 expected
Crit 837, 12 rage, ~16.09 expected
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### #3 landsoul

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:39 PM

I confirm (after doing strange dummy tests):
Wowwiki formula wrong
You get full or partial rage on parry or dodge
1+ rage loss directly after hit

With being naked and using smallest DW 2h I could find,
I got sometimes 2-3 rage on main hand hit, wowwiki formula/kalgan post dictates I should get over 4 with that attack.
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### #4 Machinator

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:39 PM

Could you explain this as both you and Hellord mentioned something similar. Are you seeing the rage gain and then it ticks off after your attack while in combat?

You swing and hit the target, rage increases, lets say by 6, and then a split second later you only have 5 rage. While still in combat.
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### #5 Tutankhamon81

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 05:26 PM

It may be worth our time if this rage generation change can be explained in a clear manner on the damage dealing forums. It may be unintentially deflating our dps output a bit, afterall there has been no announced change to the rage generation formula.

### #6 landsoul

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 09:48 PM

Blizzard changes things without telling us all the time, or sometimes has mechanics that don't fully work as explained.
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### #7 PantheraOnca

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:29 AM

I don't know how related this is, but there have been times when I have 12-13 rage and attempt to shout (commanding or battle) and receive a "you do not have enough rage" error. I'll see my rage tick down one and try again and still the same thing. I don't use any unit frame mods and my latency rarely goes above 300 and usually sits at 170ms.

### #8 Tyvi

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 10:24 AM

I don't know how related this is, but there have been times when I have 12-13 rage and attempt to shout (commanding or battle) and receive a "you do not have enough rage" error. I'll see my rage tick down one and try again and still the same thing. I don't use any unit frame mods and my latency rarely goes above 300 and usually sits at 170ms.

That's been since around 3.0 I think, back when they changed how rage decayed (went from 2 rage every 2 seconds to 1 rage per second I believe). And yeah, there is absolutely no way you can do two shouts with 1 Bloodrage anymore like you could before this change because rage decays absurdly fast. It's a terrible change, IMO.

### #9 landsoul

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:20 AM

And we have a winner! All tests with all weapon combinations confirmed!

$\text{Rage} = \frac{3}{8}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$
f=1.75,3.5,7 for offhand hit, offhand crit/main hand hit, main hand crit
s=base weapon speed
c=320.6
d=damage done

This is a nerf from what we thought it was:
$\text{Rage} = \frac{1}{2}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$

data:
TG
17| 1437|60| 3.5| 1| 17.0687461| 0.995972399
18| 1489 |60 |3.5| 1| 17.52492202| 1.027108707
19| 1588|60| 3.5| 1| 18.39341079| 1.032978615
36| 2989 |60| 3.5| 2| 35.14634279| 1.02428865
18| 1529 |60| 3.5| 1| 17.87582658| 1.006946444
16| 1339 |70| 3.5| 1| 16.20902994| 0.987104105
16| 1324 |70| 3.5| 1| 16.07744074| 0.995183267
17| 1424 |70| 3.5| 1| 16.95470212| 1.0026717
37| 3145 |70| 3.5| 2| 36.51487056| 1.013285805
14| 1310 |60| 1.75| 1| 13.72337414| 1.020157277
12| 1094 |60| 1.75| 1| 11.82848955| 1.014499776
24| 2095 |60| 1.75| 2| 22.84112601| 1.05073629
19| 1628 |60| 3.5| 1| 18.74431535| 1.01364065
48| 4440 |60| 3.5| 2| 47.87540549| 1.002602474

2H
19| 1676|60| 3.5| 1| 19.16540081| 0.991369822
21| 1849|60| 3.5| 1| 20.68306301| 1.015323504
41| 3590|60| 3.5| 2| 40.41868372| 1.014382365
20| 1809|60| 3.5| 1| 20.33215845| 0.983663394
20| 1751|60| 3.5| 1| 19.82334685| 1.008911369
9 |798| 60| 3.5| 1| 11.46304585| 0.785131641

1h
8| 689| 60| 3.5| 1| 8.144330942| 0.982278355

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### #10 Starfox

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:46 AM

And we have a winner! All tests with all weapon combinations confirmed!

$\text{Rage} = \frac{3}{8}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$
f=1.75,3.5,7 for offhand hit, offhand crit/main hand hit, main hand crit
s=base weapon speed
c=320.6
d=damage done

This is a nerf from what we thought it was:
$\text{Rage} = \frac{1}{2}(fs+\frac{7.5d}{c})$

Base weaponspeed? Not modified by haste? Would be quite surprised if it really is base speed
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### #11 Guest_amethyst_*

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:56 AM

Using the actual (hasted) weapon speed would mean that stacking haste would cause your weapon blows to return less rage.

Whilst the differences we're talking about seem fairly minor, it would seem against Blizz's design policy for the addition of a stat to cause a reduction in efficiency.

As it is, using base weapon speed means that the first half of the equation is easily pre-calculated as it's not affected by haste values, which change all the time during combat based upon buffs/procs etc.

### #12 Starfox

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:22 PM

Using the actual (hasted) weapon speed would mean that stacking haste would cause your weapon blows to return less rage.

Whilst the differences we're talking about seem fairly minor, it would seem against Blizz's design policy for the addition of a stat to cause a reduction in efficiency.

As it is, using base weapon speed means that the first half of the equation is easily pre-calculated as it's not affected by haste values, which change all the time during combat based upon buffs/procs etc.

But what does haste do? Perhaps it makes you hit more frequently?
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### #13 landsoul

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:23 PM

Haste increases your rage generation by increasing the frequency that these rage-hits are delivered.
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### #14 Speeder

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:42 PM

It seems they nerfed it to offset gaining rage on parries, dodges, bubbles etc.
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### #15 Guest_amethyst_*

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:51 PM

Yup, more haste = more attacks = more rage is obvious (or I would hope so anyway).

Starfox, you expressed surprise that the equation would use base weapon speed. My post was offering an explanation of why using base speed made more sense than using the actual (hasted) weapon speed. I'm not trying to argue with anyone here.

My point was that I don't think it would make sense for more haste to make your initial hit net you less rage.

### #16 hellord

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 01:35 PM

The formula seems quite accurate but I'm not sure it is complete.
I do have very strange values when I'm hitting for very low values.

I sampled some hits and crits at different levels. values from 1400sh to 1700sh normal and crits are in line or just different by 1 (so if it is rounded probabilistically we're in line).
3/8 vs 1/2 is a 25% nerf on rage generation than previously was (24% if you have endless rage).

Some tests that don't match are:
- unarmed ungeared with ER: hit (70 dmg) - rage gained 2, rage expected 3.87
- unarmed ungeared with ER: crit (140 dmg) - rage gained 4, rage expected 7.74

- 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: hit (130-132 dmg) - rage gained 3, rage expected 5.35
- 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: hit (135-137 dmg) - rage gained 4, rage expected 5.37
- 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared no ER: crit (259-263 dmg) - rage gained 9, rage expected 10.68

- 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared with ER: hit (139-143 dmg)- rage gained 4, rage expected 6.8
- 9dps 3.2s 2h axe ungeared with ER: crit (298-300 dmg)- rage gained 9, rage expected 13.7

Now consider that at 0 dmg done you should deal 3/8*fs so minimum rage gained is
- for unarmed 1.89s --> hit: 2.48 - crit: 4.96
- for 3.2s --> hit: 4.2 - crit: 8.4

If ER boosted the whole rage generated, an unarmed crit should have produced at least 6 rage.
Anyway if ER only boosts the damage part of the formula (7.5d/s) there are still some discrepancies and the values are never in the 1 range. At this point there are a few things that I would like to know, and these are:

1) How does ER boost rage?
2) Is there a damage treshold before which you don't produce any rage? ex: 3/8*(fs + 7.5*(d-X)/c)
3) Is rage rounded probabilistically?

For the issue of losing 1 rage I'm inclined to think it is due to latency and rage decay. At least I'm seeing this problem occur very often on first hit on a dummy while I didn't notice it happening while in combat. I also noticed this loss AND rage decay don't trigger a UNIT_RAGE event every second.

UNIT_RAGE is an event sent theorically every time your rage changes. If you use Bloodrage for ex, you get a UNIT_RAGE event every second and you gain 1 rage. When you exit combat and rage decay starts, even if your bar lose 1 rage point at a time you only get 1 UNIT_RAGE event every 2-3 points of decay. I guess the rage decay only triggers the event every nth seconds thus producing a sort on last tick as soon as you enter combat.

For what I have understood once in combat the rage decay doesn't stop, but you start gaining rage at the same rate.
If this is true this "rage gain" doesn't trigger at all a UNIT_RAGE event.
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### #17 landsoul

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 01:51 PM

Hellorco, can you get a table of damage of 2k+hits and crits please with ER and tell me your rage gains? I could probably find out where the 125% is plugged into and how!
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### #18 jathine

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 03:21 PM

Perhaps I can shed a little bit of light on why you guys are seeing the additional 1 rage every now and then. I did some experimenting with Haste and Rage about a year ago for Corb's rewrite of Meeks' Fury guide and while doing that I found the answer as to why you were seeing that extra point of rage fairly regularly. The game doesn't round the amount of rage in any fashion. What the game does is take the remainder and stores it up until there is enough rage to add an additional point of rage to an attack.

Here is the thread over on tankspot about it. Bagelbite's experiment is at the top and mine is lower in the thread:
Warrior Rage Generation and Haste - TankSpot

As for the guy that was surprised by the fact the game doesn't use the hastened weapon speed in the rage equation, I can explain that as well. Recently while addressing Eclipse procs for moonkins GC stated there is a technical limit to the games ability to process cast times when haste procs fall off or are applied mid-cast. The game only applies or removes the haste on the next cast. I would assume the same applies to weapon swings since they are more or less a modified cast timer. So basically, the game cannot handle doing math for rage generation mid cast. To make things easier Blizz made the rage equation run off base weapon speed.

### #19 Buanna

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 03:45 PM

As for the guy that was surprised by the fact the game doesn't use the hastened weapon speed in the rage equation, I can explain that as well. Recently while addressing Eclipse procs for moonkins GC stated there is a technical limit to the games ability to process cast times when haste procs fall off or are applied mid-cast. The game only applies or removes the haste on the next cast. I would assume the same applies to weapon swings since they are more or less a modified cast timer.

Weapon swing speed is readjusted mid-swing for parries, so there's already a check there.

It uses base speed in order to make haste relevant.

### #20 jathine

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 03:57 PM

Weapon swing speed is readjusted mid-swing for parries, so there's already a check there.

It uses base speed in order to make haste relevant.

Good point. I had forgot about parry haste. However, I still think it uses base weapon speed because it would be hard to determine how to grant rage based on haste buffs falling off mid swing. I am thinking along the lines of WF totem, Flurry, haste procs or on use from trinkets, the Ret Pally dying or something similar. How would Blizz grant rage in those situations? Would they simply just use the current weapon speed when the attack lands or do they "pro-rate" the rage granted based on how long you were at a weapon speed during the swing before it lands? I really think Blizz took the easy way out and just decided to use base weapon speed to avoid overly complex rage generation equations.

Edit: Haste would still be relevant even if the rage equation used instantaneous weapon speed for the rage equation. It would be a dps increase, but it wouldn't be a rage generation stat as well.

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